Brabham BT 2

[Marcus Mussa]

I wouldn't know how to post the link anyway! It was in a thread on Peter Broeker, who was connected to DeVos which leads to an article about DeVos' accident in a US newspaper website. Looks like a conspiracy to stop us finding out more!

But seriously it does look like the other car in the USA is the ex-Harrison car, as apparently the present owner bought it from somebody who bought it from Peter Denty. And the present owner does not know much about its history. Maybe Denty will know?

[275 GTB-4]

related riddle....I told recently that a fella in Canberra purchased a FJ from the Fremantle Motoring Museum and has it stored near here....could be a Brabham...could be an Elfin....

[Marcus Mussa]

Originally Posted by Marcus Mussa

But seriously it does look like the other car in the USA is the ex-Harrison car, as apparently the present owner bought it from somebody who bought it from Peter Denty. And the present owner does not know much about its history. Maybe Denty will know?

Peter Denty confirms that this car (now in EC USA) is indeed the ex-Mike Harrison car, which Harrison bought in about 1979 from Jeremy Bouckley. It had no plate. So this could be chassis 7 or 9. Any ideas? Maybe somebody can ask Bouckley if he remembers anything about it.

[allenbrown]

He'd be contactable via Curborough wouldn't he?

Didn't Bouckley compete in FJ in the 1960s? He could have had that car for years.

[Marcus Mussa]

I'll see if Duncan R. can contact him.

[David McKinney]

There is a ten-tenthser who knows JB - I've been waiting for him to show up and post on this thread (again)

[Marcus Mussa]

Duncan R. says the following:
Ernie De Vos had BT 2 FJ 10 62 New - --Hap sharp [63/64] – Earl Jones [ 65 ] -- de Vos must have got this v late in the season, because he raced the second hand BRJ 38 [It was A Mk 3 rear engined Lola] in 62 to become Canadian champion

FJ 7 62 went new to Howard S Cole in Texas, so unlikely to be that one for Harrison

Most likely is FJ 9 62 – sold new to Frank Ward – after Roger Mac had it, Tony Dean part exchanged it with Rodney Bloor, and he sold it on to J Mansfield – in 1966 it was owned by Geddes Yeates [ who later had a Mk 5 Lola ]

He could have spoken up earlier! – so it looks like three cars went to the States:

3/62 to Cunningham
7/62 to Howard Cole (this looks like the car that Sharp drove in 1962 – both being from Texas)
10/62 to DeVos ... anybody know Earl Jones?? I mean know as in being able to ask him what he did with the car...

Duncan gave me a fax number for JB - I will try. Would be nice if he bought it from Geddes Yeates - funnily enough I think I raced against him (Yeates) in Formula Ford in 1970!

[Marcus Mussa]

Sorry, 2/62 of course for Cunningham

[Marcus Mussa]

Duncan says he has the following from works records of the 60’s:
MRD – chassis FJ/1
FJ-1-62 – to Briggs Cunningham
FJ-2-62 – to J.Reid for John Youl
Etc. as we have already

[RogerH]

The ex Roy James BT2 is in New Zealand with the chassis plate FJ-13-62. I shared a pit with it and raced against it last weekend. It was apparently the ex Denny Hulme car that won the Boxing Day Brands Hatch race and was purported to be the prototype BT6 but it wasn't ready in time. It ran in the NZ National series with a 1500cc engine for many years but has recently been converted back to 1100cc FJ mode.

[David McKinney]

Originally Posted by RogerH

The ex Roy James BT2 is in New Zealand with the chassis plate FJ-13-62. I shared a pit with it and raced against it last weekend. It was apparently the ex Denny Hulme car that won the Boxing Day Brands Hatch race and was purported to be the prototype BT6 but it wasn't ready in time. It ran in the NZ National series with a 1500cc engine for many years but has recently been converted back to 1100cc FJ mode.

That's the accepted history, Roger, but it does have a few drawbacks
1) Photographs show that Hulme's Boxing Day Brands Hatch car was indeed the prototype BT6
2) Roy James's car was not a BT2, but a BT6 (the Hulme/Brands car)
3) It seems unlikely any car numbered FJ-13-62 was ever built

[RogerH]

I was aware there were different versions of the car's history David. The NZ version is that it originally replaced a BT2 that Denny wrote off in early 1963. It was purchased from James (after he went on a compulsory holiday) by Billy Housego who bought it to NZ. It first ran here in 1965 (as far as I can tell as a BT2). I suppose if it is not a BT2 then it could be the prototype BT6? By the way David, you may recollect that a while ago we discussed my Lola Mk 2 BRJ 1. It's now is the process of restoration but an interesting aside has come to light. In John Blunsden's 1961 book it states that one of the Fitzwilliam Mk 2 cars was taken by Ferrari for development purposes and had a Fiat engine fitted. It appears my car was entered at Circuit de Reims-Gueux and at Nurburgring in July 1960 as a Lola Fiat. On stripping the car down the engine mounts appeared to have been drilled to match a Fiat engine (I compared them with the Fiat in my Taraschi) and an additional Italian oil temperature gauge has been fitted. I would like to contact Ferrari archives to see if they have any info but I have no contact details for them.

[Marcus Mussa]

According to Duncan’s records, the Boxing Day Brabham was chassis FJ-1-63, and it was sold to Roy James. In 1964 it was bought by Mike Lawlor and raced by John Miles in 1964 and 1965. In 1966 it went to Ray Thackwell, which is presumably how it got to NZ. There is no such car as FJ-13-62.
It should be easy to see if it is a BT2, but I thought Ted Walker had already verified that this was the case (post #44). The instrument bulkhead on a BT2 is a sheet welded on to two tubes, with holes for the instruments, switches etc. (like a Lotus 22, except down the sides the holes are not completely drilled out). The one for the BT6 is just chassis tubes with the instrument panel tacked on the top (like a F3 car). The BT2 normally will have inboard rear brakes, although some of them will have been converted to outboard, and of course this particular car may be a development of the BT2 anyway.

[allenbrown]

Sorry to ask a dumb question but were the terms BT2 and BT6 actually used in period of were they, like at Coopers, applied aretrospectively?

Allen

[David McKinney]

Marcus
That was the history I believed until recently (before and after discussion with Duncan)
However, it now seems certain that the car Thackwell took to NZ, and which is still there, was a BT2.
Some of us are trying very hard to get to the bottom of all this!

[Dave Zurlinden]

Just found about this site and thread from Wayne Mitchell earlier this week (thanks, Wayne), and glad I did. While I already have had the pleasure of "e-meeting" a few of you, it's a pleasure to now meet up with the rest.

Thanks to John Streets and all those before him who kept the car alive and well, I do indeed have the honor of being the current caretaker of FJ-8-62, and am very proud and pleased to do so. I was in high school when Gardner and Youl were screaming around in this car, and read John Blunsden's Sports Car Graphic article on the Brabham Junior at that time (and everything else I could read of F-Jr., F1, sports cars, you name it) -- never dreamt for a minute someday I would get to restore and race one of them, especially the particular one I have. What a joy!!

I have to say you guys are really working hard at solving the 11-built-where-are-they mysteries, good job! I'm very keen to see the final list, assuming it can ever be called "final"... Meanwhile, a car that seems overlooked is the BT2(?) being raced in the Eastern US by Bob Goeldner. See the Nov/Dec 2005 issue of Vintage Motorsport, where there's a pic and story of the General Racing Rolex Lime Rock event on pp 92 & 93. I've been meaning to try and contact Bob to learn more about him and the car, but haven't done so yet. Interesting on the caption of the photo (top, p93), refers to it as a '63 BT2. We all know the '63s were BT6s, right?, so maybe a typo, maybe what? What is its chassis # and ownership history, if anyone knows?

Last, I think it was Marcus commenting on BT6 vs BT2 differences. A couple more I've noted on ones local to here are top-pivoting pedals vs floor-mounted, inboard roto-flex couplings on the halfshafts (still u-joints on outboard, but now un-splined shafts), and the tailpipe/exhaust being inside the bodywork vs outside in the little recess on the tail. Also, the 6s all appear to have rear anti-roll bars, and all early pictures of BT2s I've seen show no rear bar (I'm presently not using one for that reason, but may consider trying it later).

That's my 2 cents for now!
Best to all,
DZ

[RogerH]

THe owner of FJ-13-62 has provided me with a number of documents from his almost 20 year relationship with the car. Some of the background came from discussions he had with Denny Hulme regarding the car. The story apparently was that it ran with Denny at the 1962 Brands Hatch Boxing Day meeting and was intended to be the prototype of the 1963 Brabham FJ. It was a modified 1962 chassis with altered front suspension mountings, wider track etc. It also was powered by a development Holbay Ford engine with a five bearing set up. It was subsequently sold to Roy James and then to Ray Thackwell (but consigned to Billy Housego for importation to NZ) after being advertised for sale in the 14 Feburary 1964 edition of Autosport. An interesting aside is that when it arrived in NZ, Customs required the car completely stripped including the chassis end tubes sawn off looking for hidden bank notes due to it's Roy James connection. It has a long documented history in NZ. The story (evidently) regarding only 11 BT 2s being made but this car being number 13 is that FJ-11-62 became a 1963 Intercontinental BT-4 (Bib Stillwell), FJ-12-62 was the eleventh BT-2 built and FJ-13-62 was the prototype for the BT-6. There was an article written in 1992 by Denis Lupton profiling FJ-13-62 of which I have a copy. A current photo of FJ-13-62 can been seen at: http://www.groundsky.co.nz/0509WEB/P...9/I09L1924.JPG

[Marcus Mussa]

Originally Posted by Dave Zurlinden

Meanwhile, a car that seems overlooked is the BT2(?) being raced in the Eastern US by Bob Goeldner.

Hi Dave,
The car now owned by Bob Goeldner is the ex-Mike Harrison car I was talking about earlier. It certainly seems to be a genuine car but we are trying to discover which one. We have traced it back to Jeremy Bouckley, and even a bit beyond, and the car we think it is (i.e. chassis 9) can be traced forward to Geddes Yeates, however the junction has not yet been made.

Some other names have appeared thanks to Alan Putt, mostly people in the Monoposto Racing Club which used to run FJ in the UK, and who have owned this car (this was before Jeremy Bouckley) : they include J.Aspinwall (1969), Paul Hull, Andrew Hull and Peter Henry (the last three owning it together in the 70’s). Do these names ring any bells?

[RAP]

"Duncan says he has the following from works records of the 60’s:
MRD – chassis FJ/1
FJ-1-62 – to Briggs Cunningham
FJ-2-62 – to J.Reid for John Youl
Etc. as we have already"

I've lost the plot - who and where does "J Reid for John Youl" fit in?
Time for a new summary !!
Richard

[Marcus Mussa]

How about ?:
FJ-1-62 is a new number which goes to Briggs Cunningham ... Wayne Mitchell (to be confirmed)
FJ-2-62 is the number previously attributed to Briggs Cunningham but now apparently should read J.Reid (John Youl being the driver - Gavin Youl's brother) – not traced now
FJ-3-62 Gardner, McClelland … now in Australia
FJ-4-62 Moench ... Simon Ham
FJ-5-62 Schlesser (not traced now)
FJ-6-62 Olthoff ... Marcus Mussa
FJ-7-62 Howard S. Cole (Texas) (not traced now)
FJ-8-62 Gardner ... Dave Zurlinden
FJ-9-62 Ward .... Bob Goeldner (to be confirmed)
FJ-10-62 DeVos, Sharp, Earl Jones (not traced now)
FJ-11-62 not a BT2
FJ-12-62 Mildren
FJ-13-62 or FJ-1-63 Roy James ... now in NZ

[Dave Zurlinden]

Happen to know that FJ-3-62's present owner is Graham Browne, yes, in Australia, after Nick McDonald (also Aussie) did beautiful, correct restoration.

[David McKinney]

On Marcus's list:
John Youl never raced a BT2 (or any other Brabham that I can recall)
But Gavin Youl did

And I still suspect the NZ BT2 is something other than #13....

[david birchall]

A guy named Tom Claridge out of the SanFrancisco area raced a Brabham FJ that I recall as a BT2. How does that fit in the scheme of things?

I can't believe I just read this entire thread! I really must get a life

[Wayne Mitchell]

Just spoke to Tom Claridge re his ownership of a car. He stated he has never owned a Brabham and may have driven one about 15-20 years ago owned by Dick James of California. I know Dick and believe his car was a later car. I will report after contacting him. There is a rumor of another BT2 or parts in Calif which I am following up and will report as it unravels. wtmitchell@att.net

[david birchall]

My memory is usually not that bad!
It would have been 15 years ago--at the last race at Westwood. I will find the programme and check.