Where were the doctors?/Delay getting to Ralf (merged)

[freud]

FIA regulation 162) If a car stops during the race it must be removed as quickly as possible so that its presence does not constitute a danger or hinder other competitors. If the driver is unable to drive the car it shall be the duty of the marshals to assist him.

PS - FIA will never impose a fine upon a Marshall who runs to save a driver's life. In many circumstances, the Marshalls dont get instructions from Stewards before they run towards a car. They just do it. They are volunteers, not paid workers. And, btw, they do get free lunch.

[Woolley]

The posts above are correct - the only thing worse than a casualty is another casualty, and the first briefing will always be "Do nothing that puts yourself at risk". Assuming yellows will protect you is foolhardy in the least. Remember Interlagos last year, yellows all over the scene, SC boards out, 25 seconds later Alonso comes steaming in. Any marshal attending Webber would have had no chance, and Indy is way faster than that.

This is a general observation, as I haven't seen the incident from this week-end. The crucial difference with Indy as an oval is the 'yellow' called by landline. Heard and responded to instantly at all posts, lights and flags and calls from the spotters means the entire field is under control, usually in around 15 seconds or so, meaning the incident team know they are clear to go.

Unfortunately, until drivers in all formulae react properly to yellow flags, everyone is put at risk.

[Ralf]

The FIA need to find out WHY it happened.

And it's worrying that this isn't the first time it has happened in the USA.

What if the car was on fire?
60 seconds is a long time in that instance.....

Not good.

[billkirbywofb]

Just a reminder to those who call for the safety cars to drive up the pit lane in the direction of traffic, please remember the 1973 Indy-500. A firetruck was dispatched the "wrong way" to help in the flaming Swede Savage accident. A young pit crewman ran into pit lane to assist his car without looking the wrong way and was hit and killed by the firetruck. So driving against traffic can and has been deadly

[brightline]

My question is in Champ Car/IRL they have multiple safety teams on course, it seemed as though there was only one ambulance and it had to go all the way around the track to get to Ralf becuase it was in the pits or something?!?!?! I don't know about "local Indy rules" whatever that means, but it did seem that they did not have proper saftey personnel (i.e. ambulance, doctors) at the proper positions. Why not have one team in the pits and one on the backstretch that way a vehicle would only have to go a 1/2 lap to get the a driver?

[camcartfan]

Originally posted by sawbench
An then they drive him a 10 mph around the track to the appluase of the crowd (never got that bit, applauding for crashing and not knowing the condition of the guy) to the medical centre.

Only in America.

If you said to them they were slack in any part of their society, they'd be mortified.

They were slack today.

Not fair.

In other American sports when a player is injured, the fans stay silent until the player either gets up or is placed on a stretcher. If placed on a stretcher, the crowd politely claps (not applaudes) while the player is removed. This is not done to say "We are glad you got hurt", it is done out a show of sympathy and hope that he/she will be OK.

I have not spent much time in Europe, but I'm sure it's just a cultural thing, not disrespect.

[Armco Bender]

Raises the question,why doesn't F1 have full time Marshalls that travel to each circuit with the circus a la the IRL/CART set up?.They can fly in planeloads of PR people,bean counters,pit babes and hairdressers but what about full time safety crews/marshalls?.

PS. Marshalls from Monaco need not apply.

[Stephen Green]

Chigley is right during the BGP last year I was instructed by Race Control to remove said invader.

Back to the current issue we have forgotten one important fact. In the US marshals work differently to other places. At CART/IRL races marshals do NOT go trackside, they wait for the fast response vehicles like Simple Green to cover accidents. To give you an example, at the Brands round of Indycars a year or two ago we (marshals) were briefed that we were NOT to go trackside and to leave clear ups to the professional crews. That goes completely against the way we normally work anfd I have to confess was pretty hard to swallow.

Maybe we should have a global way of dealing with incidents relating to Formula 1, but in the meantime, we have to work with what we have.

Like most of you I sat watching in horror, shouting at the TV as no-one went to the aid of Ralf, and I feel the poor response reflects badly on marshals in general. Maybe lessons have been learnt and the USA may do things differently in the future. Somehow though I doubt it.

Lastly I want to add my voice to the other marshals who rightly say you do NOT go trackside unless it is safe to do so. The last thing any sport needs is a dead hero.

[Peter Mallett]

Originally posted by camcartfan


If placed on a stretcher, the crowd politely claps (not applaudes) while the player is removed. This is not done to say "We are glad you got hurt", it is done out a show of sympathy and hope that he/she will be OK.

Never occurred to me thay were apluading. I found it quite moving that the crowd would express their sympathy and support like that.

[ggreen29]

An irony is that in the late 60s and early 70s JYS pointed to Indy as an exemplar of racing safety, and now they seem to have fallen well short of that, or any sensible mark.

[R]

Whenever you watch an oval race from the US, the safety crew is there in no time when an accident occurs. Clearly the problem lies with the safety procedures related to the F1 race at Indy, not with the American marshals. Maybe F1 should use the safety crew which travels with the Indy circus for the race at Indianapolis, at least for the oval part of the track? They will be much more experienced in how to deal with oval crashes, eventhough everything will be happening in the opposite direction to what they're used to.

No matter whose fault it was, it is clear that such a response time to a potentially very serious accident is completely unacceptable. I'm glad I didn't watch the race live, and that I knew Ralf wasn't seriously injured when I saw the incident. F1 must upgrade its safety procedures for the US GP well in time before next year's race, or the race should be dropped from the calendar. F1 was very lucky Ralf wasn't seriously injured yesterday, and may not be so lucky next time. Another accident with similarly slow response just can't be allowed to happen.

[blackx]

As a marshal and a Rescue Crew Member I too was not happy about the length of time it took for assistance to reach RS.....

But take a step back for one minute and think about the consequences of jumping over the wall without the race first being neutralised...

As has already been stated in this thread the cars are traveling at very high speed when they enter that corner..
Ok ............so yellows were being waved frantically I hear you say....
They were but..........A formula one car will still be traveling fairly quickly and if that car should make contact with someone who is trackside without clearance then you potentialy have at least 2 more casualty's to deal with..

It is not nice to see on tv but rescue,doctors,marshals do not and should not go trackside when there is risk to their own safety..

I believe the race should have been routed through the pit lane at worst and at best it should have been stopped..

It would have been easy to do and with such a wide pit lane should have posed no danger...

[Gt_R]

Is there only one ambulance on duty at the circuit? I would have thought that there are a few situated at different points of the circuit, and the one nearest the scene of accident (in the direction of the race), would be deployed.

[climb]

Good remarks blackx, interesting the slant from an expert

[blackx]

oooooooooops.............this should have been a reply to where were the doctors...........

Could a mod please do the business and move it there for me??

Ta very much

[Super Tourer]

Done!

[blackx]

Ty Super Tourer

[fog_shadow]

human life comes first. nothing and i repeat nothing else is more important. if it was too dangerous for the medics to reach Ralf on time because of the speeding cars, the race should have been stopped.

what i want to know is the name of the clown who was responsible for this farce.

it matters little that ralf is OK, in the given context. in the future, STOP THE BLOODY RACE if you have to, YOU NITWITS!!

[ASCII Man]

But..but..but.. the "show" MUST go on!

[Stephen Green]

Originally posted by Gt_R
Is there only one ambulance on duty at the circuit? I would have thought that there are a few situated at different points of the circuit, and the one nearest the scene of accident (in the direction of the race), would be deployed.

There are numerous ambulances at each Grand Prix but, no vehicle is allowed trackside without the express permission of Race Control.

[BSchneiderFan]

Well, I'm happy to go along with David Coulthard (a senior member of the GPDA, after all) when he says that the decision not to stop the race was the correct one. Nevertheless, given that Ralf's condition was unknown and that he was not, unlike Alonso, getting out of the car of his own accord, the delay in getting to him could have been very, very serious. Thank God it was not. Nonetheless my mind went back to Terry Trammell's account of Alex Zanardi's horrific crash at the Lausitzring; Dr Trammell reckoned that by the time they got Zanardi into the helicopter to be taken to hospital in Berlin, he had minutes to live. By the grace of God, Ralf's accident was nowhere near as serious, but in the minutes after he smacked the wall, that was not apparent. He could easily have suffered serious head/neck injuries. The delay in getting medical attention to him was simply unacceptable, and Syd Watkins, I imagine, must be furious. Given the way in which GPs work, responsibility has to lie with race control. What in God's name happened? We need to find out, and make sure it doesn't happen again.

I'm by no means his biggest fan, but get well soon, Ralf.

[Gnomex]

Originally posted by Stephen Green


Lastly I want to add my voice to the other marshals who rightly say you do NOT go trackside unless it is safe to do so. The last thing any sport needs is a dead hero.

Absolutely. To paraphrase a well know saying from the realms of aviation:- "There are old marshals and there are bold marshals, but there are no old, bold marshals".....

[Kicking-back]

Is it possible the "delay" in getting to Ralf was because the Williams team had already communicated with him, and he had indicated he was okay - therefore there was no need for anyone to go steaming in.

[race aficionado]

This is a long clip and it shows real time how long it took for doctors to appear.- it also shows Michael's pit stop as it all occured.

http://homepage.mac.com/emeseditoria...heater125.html

RS crash + pit stops - long clip

[DaveStyles]

Hi all..

not a marshal myself, but am aware that you are the people in the know.. (being marshals yourselves!)

I've read comments on other message boards noting how long the marshals took to get to Ralf.. (derogarory comments I'm afraid) and I must admit I was a bit worried when watching the TV about just how long it appeared to be.

Was it really that long ? or was it the normal "seconds seemed like hours" effect that takes over when you are watching such an incident, but can't be involved..

anyway... it did seem longer than usual.. can you guys comment ?