Ralf's 10 Second Penalty

[JeremySmith]

I think it is common knowledge that no one on this forum will ever convince Liz that Michael Schumacher is anything but a fake and a cheat,who does not have the abilty to win races and WDC's without the help of Ferrari and the FIA whom he controls..

This brings to mind Aryton Senna, a brilliant driver who I miss dearly..It seemed to me that Aryton would do anything he needed to do to get the job done,including running directly into other drivers ...Correct me if I am wrong..Would Senna have stayed behind Bernoldi in Monaco? No he would driven him into the sea..

I am a Michael Schumacher fan I admit, and proud of that..I do not care for his moves at the start of a race which I thought we had seen the last of. He "closes the door" on his opponnant which is deemed totaly within the rules. If you are the driver on the receiving end of this move it must be a royal pain in the arse especially if you are driving a faster car..P1 is earned by Michael's ability to go out a put in one lap that no one else can match, plain and simple he is the fastest, the numbers show that..To defend a hard earned P1..He needs to do whatever it takes to defend his position within reason of course..I give Michael Schumacher the benefit of the doubt to have more of an idea about what is "safe" and what is "dangerous" on a race track than any of us who drive passenger cars on city streets..

The problem is that NONE of us realy know what goes on behind the closed doors of Formula1,Where millions upon millions of dollars are envolved on an annnual basis. It is pure speculation on our behalfs..

(Note) This post is not intended to criticize the opinions of ANY members that post here!

[Gt_R]

"I give Michael Schumacher the benefit of the doubt to have more of an idea about what is "safe" and what is "dangerous" on a race track than any of us who drive passenger cars on city streets.."

Precisely!

Go schumy go...show all your best, go trash the rest!

[renaultbel]

This is something only for Belgium sorry
It is pay tv here

[EERO]

Originally posted by Gt_R
... i truly believe that in this race, MS did not do anything specifically wrong what-so-ever. Its just biased people ASSUME it to be wrong because it is done by MS!

Crossing the white line in the as TGF did but cutting in front of Ralf at the first Pit Stops is ILLEGAL, (see eatapc's thread on the FIA sporting code), whether or not the Stewards choose to call him on it and whether or not other drivers do it as well does not absolve Schumacher of the responsibility for having made an illegal move. I admitted I was wrong about the Pit exit controversy-but your statement that "MS did not do anything specifically wrong what-so-ever" is simply wrong, no matter how you you look at it.

[EERO]

Originally posted by Jersound
I think it is common knowledge that no one on this forum will ever convince Liz that Michael Schumacher is anything but a fake and a cheat,who does not have the abilty to win races and WDC's without the help of Ferrari and the FIA whom he controls..

I think that if you actually read her posts, you would realize that she is one of several people, myself included, who believe him to be very talented and a likely winner without the benefit of favoritism by the FIA. We don't question his ability-we question his morality.

[Bononi]

Exactly.

Anyone who has been reading our topic around here, should know that.

The discussion about TGF (aka Michael Schumacher) is about his morality, and it's useless to compare with what others have done in the past. We all know they did it, and they said later they were wrong. This kind of comparision only servers to justify bad manners, like a child excuse.
I realise TGF is one of the greatest in F1, and he can be beating all others in records and WDCs. That's a proof of his skills, but it doesn't minimize his dirty tricks. No don't ask me what dirty tricks, we know them so well, and we can see them once in a while in a sunday afternoon (when not during the week).
I'm a not a TGF hater , like Liz said a million times, how can you hate someone you don't know personally ? And if you care to know I had the same feelings about Senna.
The amounts of topics thrashing TGF is always about something suspicious rather than his plenty advantage above the others. This we clearly know, but still there are always something strange...
I liked what GT_R said about not closing the eye to whatever TGF does, and I am sure all his fans should do the same. But like EERO said about his move entering the pit is not legal, and anyone who doesn't know about the F1 rules but has a slight sense of driving can see the danger in that move. I do believe that what Ralf had discussed with TGF in the garage could be about that.
Please guys, don't think we hate the man, after all we are only talking about what we like most.

[eatapc]

Originally posted by renaultbel
This is something only for Belgium sorry
It is pay tv here

If I were to win the lottery or somehow come into money, the first thing I'd do is buy a summer home in Belgium. Buying a Ferrari 360 would come next.

I wish the US had a pay-TV option like this. The first cable provider, satellite service or network to offer a system like Canal+ will revolutionize sports coverage and make a killing.

[Blackjack21]

According to German TV Ralf has no hard feeling toward his brother. He has said Schu-me only did what he -Ralf - would have done if he was in the lead. Believe that and I tell you another!

He did say he was upset with the stewards for the 10-second penalty and felt it was unfair.

[EERO]

Bononi, Well put, thanks.

-E.

[JeremySmith]

And who are YOU to judge Michael Schumacher's morals? I mean come on, you really know nothing about the man do you!!

[Quino]

Ralf gets penalized for something he clearly did do wrong, yet we question Michael's morals

Michaels morals get questioned for the simple fact people don't like him. He did win this race on his own merit.

Crossing the lines at pitentrance is simply fundementally diffrent from crossing the line at the exit.

The line at the exit exist solely to prevent the driver exiting the pit to getting in the way of the faster travelling cars on the raceline. The corner does come rather shortly after the exit, reason for the organizers to put an extra line. Crossing the line in it self is therefor illegal. It's not even necessary to create a dangerous situation by doing so. The line implicates a duty for the driver exiting the pits concerning maximization of safety. Crossing that line is against this sole obligation. Therefor Ralf didn't need to create a dangerous situation, he simply stepped on the rules by crossing it, disregarding the safetyprotocol by doing so. Crossing the lines at the pit entrance is only illegal when by doing so, you create a dangerous situation. Michael didn't create one and therefor his move wasn't illegal. If it was Williams and/or McLaren would've filed a protest by now.

[eatapc]

Originally posted by Quino
Crossing the lines at pitentrance is simply fundementally diffrent from crossing the line at the exit.

At the risk of belaboring a subject we have tortured to death, I would say that the violations by the brothers Schumacher, one at the exit and one at the entrance to the pits, were fundamentally different only if Charlie Whiting discussed them with the drivers prior to the race and said that they would be treated differently. From Atlas F1: "Prior to each race the teams are given an updated diagram of the whole pit lane area and the rules governing just where the cars are allowed to go, and they are also reminded of the penalties for any infringements. The procedure followed in this instance was also very straightforward. Once the infringement had been seen by Charlie Whiting, the FIA Race Director, a report was forwarded to the three race stewards, who, according to the rules laid down prior to the race, had only one option open to them - to hand down the penalty, as they duly did."

What bothers me is that Ralf said he was looking in his mirrors at the pit exit to check for oncoming cars, and didn't notice the white line. If Charlie Whiting had indicated in the drivers' meeting that crossing the line would bring about a 10 second penalty, would Ralf had been so casual about it? Enquiring minds want to know. If it wasn't specifically discussed, then the 10 second penalty was ridiculously harsh.

[EERO]

Originally posted by Quino
Crossing the lines at the pit entrance is only illegal when by doing so, you create a dangerous situation. Michael didn't create one and therefor his move wasn't illegal.

Where does it say this in the Sporting Code?

Jersound, I started this thread because I believed that MS had performed the same infraction as Ralf, I NEVER said that Ralf should not be punished, only that I felt his brother deserved the penalty as well. Subsequently, thanks to RB's photo from the Digital feed, I have been proven wrong and have admitted so here.

However, I still contend that the Schumacher swerve initiated last year at the start of several races is wrong, even if it is legal;
I contend that serving a ten-second penalty after you have won the race may be within the letter, but is not within the spirit of the rules.
I contend that intentionally punting your closest challenger for the WDC, twice, off the track to be aggresive beyond reason; I believe that screaming at DC in the wake of an accident for which he was at least partly to blame, that "You are ****ing trying to kill me." for the world to hear, immoral. It is slander and in any offer environment, a litigous action. And finally, I believe that imposing a repressive driver heirarchy within the team is effective, but not Sporting, which doesn't absolve Barrichello of being a naive dupe. Thats what I believe.

I also remember the excitement of qualifying at Spa in 1990 when a very talented young driver astounded the world of F1. I also remember that as this same driver matured, he challenged Senna and rattled him. And he remains a truley charismatic force in a car.

Do I know TGF as a person? No. I also have read that he is adored by his team, engendering enormous loyalty. He takes part in a number of philanthropic enterprises. He has visited refugee camps in Bosnia. Off the track, he sounds like a great guy, and it would be a honor to meet him.

On the track, he's ruthless and his actions step over the line into "unsporting" at the very least.

[EERO]

Originally posted by eatapc



What bothers me is that Ralf said he was looking in his mirrors at the pit exit to check for oncoming cars, and didn't notice the white line. If Charlie Whiting had indicated in the drivers' meeting that crossing the line would bring about a 10 second penalty, would Ralf had been so casual about it? Enquiring minds want to know. If it wasn't specifically discussed, then the 10 second penalty was ridiculously harsh.

Damn, you are good.

[Wrex]

Originally posted by EERO
Subsequently, thanks to RB's photo from the Digital feed, I have been proven wrong and have admitted so here.

I noticed this EERO and was very impressed. It is rare on this forum, and I commend you for it.

As for the rest of your post, it is clear that your opinions on Michael are well thought out, and you are trully arguing what you believe, and not just debating things because you don't like Michael (as is the case with many memebers here).Well done.

As angst and I agreed by PM, we will never agree all the time in the forum, and thats great. How boring would it be if we agreed on everything?

I will debate with anyone when it comes to Michaels emense talent, but you will rarley find me defending his morals (such as Adelaide and Jerez) as even as one of his fans, you cannot defend the undefendable.

Just for the record I would like to add, that I think alot of us (including me) can get carried away sometimes especially when it comes to Michael. Both TGF fans and Bashers alike sometimes argue just for the sake of arguing, and this is something we need to be careful of.

Happy Posting



Wrex

[JeremySmith]

And you EERO are a gentleman and commend you for your honesty..At the end of the day we are all racing fans and we can agree to disagree..

I get immense pleasure from coming here and reading all of your posts, I have learnt a great deal from all of you..And I hope will continue to do so

[Gt_R]

"he's ruthless and his actions step over the line into "unsporting" at the very least."

Thats what u believe...but ruthless is a rather harsh word...MS is merely too aggressive.. And as for unsporting... JPM isnt very sporting, DC isnt very sporting, JV isnt very sporting either... now thats what i believe~

As for him "screaming at DC in the wake of an accident for which he was at least partly to blame, that "You are ****ing trying to kill me." for the world to hear, immoral."
Now try putting yourself in his shoes... i think that it is a very aggitated MS when he did that in the pits, and its ridiculous to say it is "immoral". MS at the point after the accident is seriously having the believe that DC is trying to "kill" him. It may have exaggerated, but that is how he really felt. To suddenly find a car in front of you an barely missing it head-on with the speed difference is not a joking matter. Look at what happened at GV in practice. Michael is a human, just like you and me. He has a wife and kid, family and friends. And to suddenly find his life in danger when he least expected due to the actions which he believes is not his fault and avoidable is a terrifying moment for anybody. Look at JV. He had admitted he is terrified at some accidents this year. Alesi was also very terrified after the Germany shunt last year. Both, like MS, are racers trough and through. Yet the idea of suddenly leaving your loved ones behind is not immoral. And knowing that how much some of us can be stuck with our own beliefs and not give a hoot what other members say on this forum, you can understand his outburst. You cannot say that he is wrong, as much as i cannot say that you are wrong to think that MS is a jerk...because it is his belief at that moment of time, which all happened in a very short span of less than 10mins. He did not shout "YOU CAUSED MY WDC and 10pts!". but that was angry that DC almost cost his life. You might thing that it is just a small accident, but understand that the driver's perpsective is very different.And if you truly believe somebody is attempting to kill you, and take away everything you have in life, would you be able to keep calm when you face the person you think tried to do that?


However, ERRO, i am glad to read what you believe, and like WREX and Jersound, i find reading your posts a pleasure, as you bring out your opinions with supporting evidence to justify them. Not just based on some "gut-feeling" and biased opinions...which differentiate your post with some others... i can disagree with you, but the thoughtful way which you bring them out is a food-for-thoughts... and i fully respect your opinions as a result. Look forward to greater things to come!!

[Blackjack21]

Why did DC almost cause his life? He ran into DC, not the other way arounf!

[EERO]

Originally posted by Gt_R


As for him "screaming at DC in the wake of an accident for which he was at least partly to blame, that "You are ****ing trying to kill me." for the world to hear, immoral."
Now try putting yourself in his shoes... i think that it is a very aggitated MS when he did that in the pits, and its ridiculous to say it is "immoral". MS at the point after the accident is seriously having the believe that DC is trying to "kill" him. It may have exaggerated, but that is how he really felt.

Oh, I don't dispute what he felt. But at the risk of sounding a little a little old fashioned here, I've always believe that shooting your mouth of at the heat of the moment is not terribley professional or mature.

[roz]

Can we turn back the time? Guess not. Am too disappointed of the whole thing. Ralf for making the silly mistake. And the race officials for giving the harsh decision. Anyway, I'd rather borrow Rals's quote "I am not going to say anything that I might regret!" However, am looking forward for another exciting duel over the weekend though!

[Ralf's Girl]

Originally posted by Quino
Ralf gets penalized for something he clearly did do wrong, yet we question Michael's morals

But that is the precise problem - Ralf was penalised, yet TGF suffered no penalty whatsoever for his infringement of the rules when he entered the pits (not to mention crossing twice across the track at the start, which I seem to recall he complained no end about when Damon Hill did it to him...).

Originally posted by Quino
Crossing the lines at the pit entrance is only illegal when by doing so, you create a dangerous situation. Michael didn't create one and therefor his move wasn't illegal.

When I looked, he was very - very dangerously - close to crashing into Ralf. Now correct me if I'm wrong, but an accident in the pitlane is surely a dangerous situation? And when it is caused by a driver cutting across the rumblestrip to get into the pitlane, then that is the creation of a dangerous situation...

[JeremySmith]

But he did not hit Ralf did he..nor did he put him into the wall, and the stewards have eyes. Charlie Whitting can replay a racing incident in a flash,I don't think anybody messes with our Charlie... Even Michael Schumacher or Ferrari.. I love this place!!!

[Quino]

Well, for the sake of argument:

All drivers do something illegal one time or another. Yet. Michael doesn't get penalized. Even if this were true, how does this make Michael more ruthless then other drivers? Yes, he is a toughy, and yes, he stretches the rules to their very edge. Only, where you people take that for labelling Schumachers moral standard low, I think that's exactly one of the characteristics which makes him just that bit more valuable than other drivers.

Another thing, there are more circuits in which the pitlane-exit is specifically destined to keep exiting drivers clear of the fasttrackers. Monaco and Barcelona for instance. Disregarding the rules as Ralf did is illegal. Teams and drivers know this, so no protest was filed.

And I do think that raceorganizers would have had more benefit by a nonpenalized-Ralf. He did made the mistake, and the punishement was set.

I furthermore do not think Michael created any sort of dangerous situation. Don't let the telelens fool you in distances. Ralf didn't have to take any avoiding actions. If you would have Michael penalized for this, what shouldve been done with DC in Spa 1998?
Besides, the lines at the pitentrance do not have the fundamental function as the line at the exit obviously has.

[Porsche_1]

Quote:

Oh, I don't dispute what he felt. But at the risk of sounding a little a little old fashioned here, I've always believe that shooting your mouth of at the heat of the moment is not terribley professional or mature.



It would seam that many of the drivers can not get anything right on this forum. If they say nothing they are marketing robots that do not show enough emotion and speak their minds. If they do say something that is on their mind, and with emotion they are shooting off their mouth and should have more control, because they are professionals.

I always get confused on this point, give them some slack they are only human like us….. casting first stones and all that.

[ttc]

Originally posted by Blackjack21
Why did DC almost cause his life? He ran into DC, not the other way arounf!

You might want to take a look at the incident first b4 you venture further..

AVI/MPEG

MS was lapping DC. It was raining, so visibility was EXTREMELY bad.

You DO NOT slow down to be lapped yet STAYED within the RACING LINE especially RIGHT AFTER a corner.

It was deemed a racing incident. And IF that can be classified as a racing incident, I doubt any of MS can be considered any more dangerous.

The fact that ONLY the right front wheel broke off (and that MS was able to limp his car back to the pits) spoke volume of the skills of MS.