AMRS Round 2

[BFC]

Originally Posted by inpitlane

Both of them.

must have been ok......... saw u wandering around out there

[Falcadore]

I had a long a detailed reply but this fora rather inconveniently timed me out and the post was lost. I now have to prepare for an international flight so a detailed response will have to wait. My apologies. This is quite annoying.

[Trevor]

What I do in those cirumstances Falc is write it up in Word then copy and paste it into here.



BTW, thanks for the REAL story there slipstreamoz, I also have a lot to do with AMRS but in a different way. There are some people in here who think they know, but . . . . . .

[Silver 3]

Originally Posted by slipstreamoz

Long time reader ,1st time poster, this is the 1st topic that has motivated me to actually join and post, i have been involved as a dional Championship.
S
I am in no way connected with the AMRS but have been more impressed in the 2 meetings i have competed in with them, it was cost effective and most importantly FUN, and for the first time ever actually had sponsors pay for me to race ,one even put up the money for the in car camera.As a club/state level racer it has opend up my eyes to what can be achieved with TV coverage.I agree interstate travel adds to the cost,but i recommend having ago when the AMRS is in your state at least.
Please be gentle as its my first post.

Excellent post that FACTUALLY touches on many of the issues and rebuts the negatives. The huge majority of actual competitors are very happy to be competing in the series-- and the onle criticism I see/hear is of the type Falcadore offers-- some unhappy 3rd party.Makes you wonder.

[Crash Test]

I don't want to buy into the whole TV money etc thing. What gets me is that spectators cough up $25 to watch 50 something cars race. I see that as the absolutelte height of rudeness, when you can lob up to a comparative AASA promoted club/state level meeting, get in for nothing and see twice as many cars compete. Then if you were willing to sump out $15 you could attend a CAMS state championship, and get 180ish cars competing.

Mind you, I'm only talking about what I've seen happen in QLD here.

Last year people paid this $25 entry to see 58 cars race, and I know for a fact, many of those who did pay were there to see the advertised Nascar races that didn't happen. Will those same people come back this year if something drastic doesn't happen?

I'm not into knocking the AASA or CAMS or whatever, put if you are going to charge $25, give the punters $25 worth of action! If the value of watching 3 open wheelers go around the track is $25, then so be it. But I would much rather pay $0 and watch the 15 or so open wheelers that raced last weekend at QR....

[mtpanorama]

If you look at the NSW stae round v AMRS national round.

NSW Wakefield Park
Entry $375 ($325 if paid early)
Friday Private practice $100 3 0r 4 Sessions
Saturday 15min qual
6 lap race
Sunday 8 lap race
12 lap race
(the race distances may vary by a couple of laps as I dont have a copy of the program yet)
No TV coverage.

AMRS Calder
Entry $625 (cheaper if you do the whole series)
Private practice included

Friday - 3 x 20 min sesions
Satuday- 15 min practice
20 min Qualifying
5 lap race
Sunday 8 lap race
8 lap race
8 lap race
12 lap race
TV coverage included.

I am comparing the AMRS super TT catagory as that would be the class I would enter.
If you work out the number of laps you would get at each meeting(which is abit of a guess with times sessions) the cost per lap of each meeting is about the same ($6.30 amrs v $6.41 cams).
If you want the tv coverage well AMRS is the go, also lots more laps, around 20 - 30 more, if your car can handle it.

Thats my unbiased view on the subject.

[Uncle Cranker]

Originally Posted by Crash Test

... What gets me is that spectators cough up $25 to watch 50 something cars race.
I see that as the absolutelte height of rudeness, when you can lob up to a comparative AASA promoted club/state level meeting, get in for nothing and see twice as many cars compete. Then if you were willing to sump out $15 you could attend a CAMS state championship, and get 180ish cars competing.

Crash; some good points, and I wouldn't pay $25 to watch a series I knew was going to have low numbers. (a switched on fan can have a look at Natsoft & make an educated guess).

Just as an aside, 150+ confirmed entries for this week's VMRC at Winton, so some good sized fields and the Victorian motorsport community may possibly seeing a turning of the corner.

[Alan52]

While AMRS seems like a good deal for competitors,particularly those with cars being phased out by CAMS,I can tell you from a spectators or tV viewers perspective it is terrible entertainment and value.The organisers are deluding nobody by trying to promote it as an alternative national professional motor racing series when it seems to be a home for cars that would otherwise be motor racing landfill.

[Trevor]

Hey Alan, from tiny Acorns mighty Oak Trees grow.

That is the problem with society these days, EVERYBODY WANTS EVERTHING NOW!

[Silver 3]

Originally Posted by Big_Trev

Hey Alan, from tiny Acorns mighty Oak Trees grow.

That is the problem with society these days, EVERYBODY WANTS EVERTHING NOW!

That is excellent summary. A lot of people are busting their b....... to make the AMRS succeed . On the other hand-- there are those that want it to fall over-- can you guess who they are? Why would any genuine motorsport fan be so destructive in their criticism and fail to see the positives?

[Oaksnaf]

Yes there are many people that work countless hours for AMRS to succeed, one of course is Rod Dale and his efforts must be appreciated.

Ok Silver here is a general question.

What is being done to make AMRS succeed at this point in time.

And in your answer, make no reference to CAMS.

[Silver 3]

Originally Posted by Crash Test

I
I'm not into knocking the AASA or CAMS or whatever, put if you are going to charge $25, give the punters $25 worth of action! If the value of watching 3 open wheelers go around the track is $25, then so be it. But I would much rather pay $0 and watch the 15 or so open wheelers that raced last weekend at QR....

If all it cost you was $25 to help a series get on it's feet it is a pretty small contribution to help actual motorsport. You could pay that much to park for the day in the city.Competitors pay out many hundreds per year plus substantial amounts in entry fee's and charges for the pleasure of providing that entertainment. Time for some to see the bigger picture .
That said-- I would like to see you get real value for whatever the cost of attendence .You are critical of one meeting held last year-- and undoubtably you were unhappy.Last year was very difficult for the AMRS and a much better start has been made this year. Wakefield had mostly good numbers racing and some good racing.Time will see all categories get better.

[Silver 3]

Originally Posted by Oaksnaf

Yes there are many people that work countless hours for AMRS to succeed, one of course is Rod Dale and his efforts must be appreciated.

Ok Silver here is a general question.

What is being done to make AMRS succeed at this point in time.

And in your answer, make no reference to CAMS.

Our posts crossed! Many people working really hard to see improvements .I spoke to many people today that plan to be at the next meeting-- I am reluctant to be specific at this stage as all that matters is seeing them materialise. Several V8 Supercars of fairly recent vintage are likely to race in the TCC/V8 Giants ,plus a few that raced last year in 2nd series -- could be as many as six.That would make a huge difference if they all go ahead.
Thundersports should get a couple of interesting cars- amongst them the Saker -- one with Suburu engine and the other a Mitsuibishi Evo in the hands of a relative of a famous motor racing name from the Winton area .A couple more Wests have arrived -- they would help that is for sure.
The Intermarque Championship is likely to start to realize it's potential with some REALLY interesting cars and competitors due to appear.Small numbers so far but good mix of makes and some entertaining racing has belied the numbers. The Lotus Challenge is joining the AMRS in it's own right and some will cross enter into Intermarque .As you will remember I gave you the good oil on the Maserati's previously and there may be more very soon.My personal view is that this class can fill the same role Nations Cup played with ProCar and be the feature class-- that is what I think the AMRS needs most-- - a headline act that grabs public attention -- so for it to do this it must achieve numbers and quality.The series has a class structure so it does cater for cars of a great diversity of performance-- thus creating the race within a race etc
The Production Cars have been hurt with the 12 Hour taking competitors away but that will be well past by Winton and thar class will continue to grow.
The cost issue raised here is a little difficult to fathom-- costs are being kept to a bare minimum to keep it as affordable as possible. Above all else the AMRS needs every motorsport fan to get behind it and encourage those that are doing the hard yards to see it succeed.

[SamDale]

Originally Posted by Oaksnaf

What is being done to make AMRS succeed at this point in time.

Can I have a go at answering this one?

1. Fees have been reduced. Down 6% on last year.

2. Exposure for competitors is maximised. The Speedweek coverage is outstanding, and the AMRS works very closely with AVE to ensure it continues to improve its high standard with every round. If competitors have a new sponsor, or something they need mentioned, the AMRS does everything possible to make sure the exposure is there. There is good print media exposure, and a cohesive website for the series.

3. Everyone involved in running the AMRS does their best to ensure it is a friendly environment - the officials aren't hell-bent on giving out penalties - they make sure the racing is safe, and fun. The teams too are approachable and friendly - those spectators who do attend the rounds will generally find they can get an up-close look at the cars, and are generally free to access the garages. Those who ask nicely will generally be invited into the garages.

4. The categories are focussed on ensuring the maximum number of competitors are catered for. At the same time, the spectrum of categories means that there are entry-level categories available, as well as higher-end / more demanding categories and more in between. The range is also intended to offer the best range of options to potential sponsors, with cars and drivers to appeal to a wide range of demographics.

5. Driver development. At Calder, the first in a series of Driver Development sessions took place. The session at Calder focussed on "Media Awareness" - offering information to those who attended on dealing with the media, compiling press releases, conducting interviews and attracting sponsors. The AMRS is giving its competitors the opportunity to improve their skills. These sessions will continue, and cover a range of topics.


This is a small selection / summary of what is being done. The work never stops.

If anyone has constructive suggestions on potential improvements, please post them. I will make sure they get passed on to Garry and Rod.

[Alan52]

Originally Posted by Big_Trev

Hey Alan, from tiny Acorns mighty Oak Trees grow.

That is the problem with society these days, EVERYBODY WANTS EVERTHING NOW!

I am no great fan of CAMS however one of the fundamental problems with "professional" motor racing in Australia is that there are too many categories for our relatively small population and sponsorship base.These demographics mean that proliferation of too many categories dilutes the strength of the base.Production car racing is a classic case in point.There is the AMRS version,the Shannons Nationals/Bathurst 12 Hour version and the Performance Car/Peter Floyd version.There is really only room for only one of these to be successful(my guess is the 12 Hour will be the ace in the hole that will deliver greatest success to the Nationals version).The splitting of Historic Touring Cars into Biante and non Biante is even more stupid(if they couldn't run at V8 Supercar meetings without the split what did it matter-there are plenty of other places they can race).Even the one AMRS category that had a strong base and the clearest potential for growth ,Touring Car Challenge(there must be literally hundreds of old V8 Supercars out there somewhere)has been going backwards in numbers and quality of entry.I don't question the sincerity or motivation of the AMRS organisers but the potential dollars are not out there to make this work as a professional national series.I am happy for the competitors who get to race their cars that would otherwise be sitting idle but to pretend the series exists for any other purpose is self delusion.Any state championship meeting in NSW provides a much stronger entry and much more entertainment.AMRS sits somewhere below this state level.

[Trevor]

So Alan how many National Series are there? I reckon 3, what do you reckon?

[Alan52]

Yep The Artists Circus(aka V8 Supercars),The Acts That Have Run Away or Couldn't Get Into The Circus(aka Shannons Nationals) and The Series For Circus Performers Who Were Sent To The Knackery But Refused To Lie Down(aka AMRS).

[Silver 3]

Originally Posted by Alan52

I am no great fan of CAMS however .Any state championship meeting in NSW provides a much stronger entry and much more entertainment.AMRS sits somewhere below this state level.

I too am fan of State racing so please do not percieve as criticism of such. You are far too premature in reaching this conclusion in relation to the AMRS and you cleary do not understand the issues facing categories and car owners.Some of the "so called" national categories are there by simply paying Cams a stipend
for the priveledge. Example are Saloon cars, Commodore Cup, to name a couple-- there are others that have no real place in that context. Cams have handed out agreements like confetti where it suits them and in other cases( GT) they have extremely narrowly eligibility criteria and then actively prevented any other national Sports/GT racing-- which left very large numbers of cars essentially no where to race. In this case the standard of "national" cars is higher than state based cars- especially the NSW Sportscars that are not too keen to race anywhere but their own backyard. So you are off beam there-- and I am sure those sort of issues you did not consider in making your comments.Before you open your mouth again-- the Cams GT series is moving to a position where anything older than 3 years old is out-- that is just ridiculous in Australia. Out of that the Australian Sports/Gt Intermarque Championship was born. http://www.intermarque.net
Before you cast this category aside with the " leftovers" tag it might be a smart idea to wait a little longer before condeming the AMRS and it's categories.

[Trevor]

Originally Posted by Alan52

Yep The Artists Circus(aka V8 Supercars),The Acts That Have Run Away or Couldn't Get Into The Circus(aka Shannons Nationals) and The Series For Circus Performers Who Were Sent To The Knackery But Refused To Lie Down(aka AMRS).

Becuase you put is so eloquently, do you really still believe that there is too many series'. Your slant on the Series', albiet very sarcasticaly has raised a very good point.

If I were to paraphrase you comments, we have 2 Series', one that looks after the V8's, the other that looks after those that can't get on the V8 Calendar, so what happens to all those who want to run in a National Series that don't fit into those 2 Categories? Yep, you betcha, they are part of, or are herby invited to be part of the AMRS.

Thanks for clearing all that up for us Alan.

[PVDA]

The AMRS-2 races are being shown on Speedweek on SBS as we speak and will no doubt appear on Pay TV in replay during the week as well.

[Robert Ryan]

I am happy for the competitors who get to race their cars that would otherwise be sitting idle but to pretend the series exists for any other purpose is self delusion.Any state championship meeting in NSW provides a much stronger entry and much more entertainment.AMRS sits somewhere below this state level.

Alan 52 only time I have agreed with you. The AMRS is a series for people who have no other or very few places to race the car/cars that are sitting in their Garage. You are right, to pretend it is more than that ,is plain silly.

[Silver 3]

Originally Posted by Robert Ryan

Alan 52 only time I have agreed with you. The AMRS is a series for people who have no other or very few places to race the car/cars that are sitting in their Garage. You are right, to pretend it is more than that ,is plain silly.

That really is an attitude that I find mysterious. While it may be so in the case of ex V8 supercars and some oyhers it is not universally so. The important part that has to come into this discussion is Cams culpability in handing out category management agreements to the favoured bag of money. I have made this point before-- the effect is to disenfranchise a lot of competitors.It goes further-- in seeking to protect that income-- they have then prevented other racing that might be perceived as competition for thir favoured group.
That said-- the net effect is to stop numerical growth in categories that may have been it's natural course eg what was the Australian Porsche Cup - last went to Bathurst with 45 competitors-- it provided a soft entry and saw many cut their teeth and raise the quality of their racing( at a higher level than State) Over easter the GT group could only put 22 ( it effectively has the Cat Man agreement that was APDC) out there with 3/4 of the cars still Porsche( Nations Cup was still drawing solid numbers also) . So the question arises-- where did all the competitors go?
The answer is fairly complex-- but essentially they have declined to pay outrageous entryfees to race-- and have either stopped racing or turned elsewhere.
Combined with the crazy notion that only 3 y.o. cars should be eligible is ridiculous( combined with management that waves a big stick re eligibility when it suits THEM but also bends it any whichway when it suits THEM)
So all that is the preamble to say-- a wider based series that includes ALL sports/GT cars does not make them leftovers. The more narrowly that the CAMS GT series is defined as FIA GT3 the more cars that are there now will be left no where to race( 4 only of the 22 only are actually eligible if they followed the stated eligibility) . The question is this-- if the large overwhelming majority are not eligible there is someting wrong with the concept.
Time will tell as to wether this wider attitude to eligibility will succeed. The AMRS is in it's early days and needs all motorsport supporters to will it's success. Their are many who appear on these forums that are unmitigated apologists for Cams attitudes and beliefs and want to see the AMRS dissappear .

[Falcadore]

Originally Posted by Silver 3

That really is an attitude that I find mysterious. While it may be so in the case of ex V8 supercars and some oyhers it is not universally so. The important part that has to come into this discussion is Cams culpability in handing out category management agreements to the favoured bag of money. I have made this point before-- the effect is to disenfranchise a lot of competitors.It goes further-- in seeking to protect that income-- they have then prevented other racing that might be perceived as competition for thir favoured group.
That said-- the net effect is to stop numerical growth in categories that may have been it's natural course eg what was the Australian Porsche Cup - last went to Bathurst with 45 competitors-- it provided a soft entry and saw many cut their teeth and raise the quality of their racing( at a higher level than State) Over easter the GT group could only put 22 ( it effectively has the Cat Man agreement that was APDC) out there with 3/4 of the cars still Porsche( Nations Cup was still drawing solid numbers also) . So the question arises-- where did all the competitors go?
The answer is fairly complex-- but essentially they have declined to pay outrageous entryfees to race-- and have either stopped racing or turned elsewhere.
Combined with the crazy notion that only 3 y.o. cars should be eligible is ridiculous( combined with management that waves a big stick re eligibility when it suits THEM but also bends it any whichway when it suits THEM)
So all that is the preamble to say-- a wider based series that includes ALL sports/GT cars does not make them leftovers. The more narrowly that the CAMS GT series is defined as FIA GT3 the more cars that are there now will be left no where to race( 4 only of the 22 only are actually eligible if they followed the stated eligibility) . The question is this-- if the large overwhelming majority are not eligible there is someting wrong with the concept.
Time will tell as to wether this wider attitude to eligibility will succeed. The AMRS is in it's early days and needs all motorsport supporters to will it's success. Their are many who appear on these forums that are unmitigated apologists for Cams attitudes and beliefs and want to see the AMRS dissappear .

Wasn't the Intermarque Challenge, a series that began four years ago as the Tattersalls series, a large place for Sports/GT overflow going to already?

The series inaugural champions were Don Lake and Ash Lowe driving a Mazda MX5, indicating the broad spread of vehicles available to run.

[Silver 3]

Originally Posted by Falcadore

Wasn't the Intermarque Challenge, a series that began four years ago as the Tattersalls series, a large place for Sports/GT overflow going to already?

The series inaugural champions were Don Lake and Ash Lowe driving a Mazda MX5, indicating the broad spread of vehicles available to run.

The series you refer to that Don and Ash won was the 1 Hour series that was a joint effort by the Qld,NSW & Vic state sports car associations. You are on the right track though. That was 04. When the collective group sought to get approval from Cams for 05 it was denied-- on the basis it was a National series and the collective group did not hold a Cams Cat Man agreement-- and had no unterest in paying for one. Out of that grew the Intermarque concept which essentially sought to give a commercial arm to sports/Gt competitors to negotiate potential sponsorships and program opportunities.
In the mish mash of the CAMS /GT cat man being set up the management of GT defaulted their arrangement with the AMRS ( then running under CAMS)
and Intermarque were asked to create a sports/Gt series, which it set out to do. Over the next month Intermarque did run what was to be Rd 1 at Winton( with Cams approval and support initially) -- to cut along story a bit shorter-- all the wheels started to turn-- the commercial interests of Cams, the commercial interest of one particular manufacturer ete etc etc and with many involved forced to make choices that certainly some did not want to make. So Intermarque was sqeezed to the side lines-- part of taht deal was for Intermarque to be allowed to run the 3 x 1 Hour races that it was originally intended to do. When the time came- only the Queensland event happened as intended -- Cams were making it as difficult as possible.
The idea never went away -- it just took time for a number of other things to become clearer -- and for 2007 the Australian Sports/GT Intermarque Championship was born and running on the AMRS program.The key part of this series is that it allows cars to race that have been built to any recognisable rules and does not seek to force silly expensive changes to comply that achieve zip.

[Falcadore]

I was aware that CAMS was unhappy with the '05 series because they were trying not to dilute the Carrera Cup (which had previously diluted the Porsche Cup but that's a whole other story). But there still was a series of events in ;05 and again last year. While the history has not been coherent the series did exist in one form or other, although there have been some wierd and wonderfuls, like Aussie Cobras and PRBs running around.

The questions comes up under '07 regs - where is the line between IMC and Thundersports?

And under that question, is the Chiron LMP-05 racecar eligible for Thundersports considering that it might be quite a bit quicker than present Thundersports cars?