LMDh (DPi regulations version 2.0)

[broadrun96]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

IMO, it's still just short of Indy Car or NASCAR to me. Just buying someone else's car, putting a body kit and an engine in it doesn't make it "your car". IMO, that's the cheap and easy, minimal effort way out.

Also look at the DPI vs LMP2 mess that existed in 2017 and 2018. LMP2 teams were promised by the ACO and IMSA to have a chance to win. DPI teams didn't like spending more than LMP2 teams to be pegged back to near-identical performance levels.

We're already seeing these issues in present day LMP1, where Toyota, with an OEM developed car and powertrain, and a probable near $100 million budget, are being pegged back to privateer performance levels against teams, no matter how good they are, don't have the resources and a budget that at most is 1/10 of Toyotas.

Yeah, DPI 2.0 and LMDH is just fine for a car maker who just wants to pull what Aston Martin did in 2009-11 and just take a customer car, shoe horn their own engine in it, strap a bodykit to it, and say job done.

But to me, that's not what got me into the sport when I was a teenager. IMSA and the ACO need to go back and look at LMP900 and figure out what worked there.

How do you define worked? If you mean wins, well that DIDN'T work at all. It was Audi unless something went wrong, and as I recall it didn't last all that long did it. There weren't constructors lining up to build cars, it was ONE major and boutique builders. They ran out of money, it was expensive and crashed.

Sorry but that dream world of everyone wanting to be there never occurred. Hell Porsche didn't get involved until the end and pretty much killed off the end evolution of the rules. That wasn't the rosy time of development, it was one car, one team, one development and others trying. Panoz wasn't developing much, outside of Sparky and that was **** down quick, it was a tried and true engine in a new package. Audi did exactly what Toyota is doing now, spending more and winning unless something broke.

[chernaudi]

One, in LMP900, BOP didn't really exist, but Audi built their car to the same exact rules as everyone else. No diesel, no hybrids, no big tech. Just be glad that they didn't spend the money that Toyota did for just two LM apperances and a one off race at Fuji with the GT-One just to basically go home empty handed. They ran full ALMS seasons and even sold some cars off to private teams.

Two, look at LMP2 from 2006-10.

LMP2 was intended for privateer teams (or factory teams on shoestring budgets), not what Porsche and Acura/HPD did, which was run OEM backed teams (even if Acura's were privateers per IMSA rules), which if the not for the 2009 recession and the ACO intervening for 2011, would've likely seen more of the same.

I understand that times are different. I also understand that in the customer car market back then, you had more options. If you don't count Audi/Audi Sport, in LMP900 there were times where private teams were able to take on BMW and Panoz and one up them. Not insanely common, but it happened.

You also had the likes of Lola, Courage, Dallara, Dome and boutique makers building cars for the LMP900 regs.

Sadly, how many of those names have I mentioned in the last sentence are there now? Though we gained Onroak/Ligier, we basically lost Lola (unless you count Multimatic as their successor), Courage (unless you count Oreca as a successor), Dome, and almost all the even smaller boutique makers.

I know that whatever IMSA and the ACO will cook up, it will favor OEM teams. And yes, most OEMs want LMDH. But outside of Toyota and Glickenhaus, do they want hypercar, or DPI, or something in between?

And we have to remember the big wildcard in this: Peugeot. I can bet you between Peugeot being a much desired OEM, and being French on top of that, that the ACO will be listening to what they want.

Also, between DPI 2.0 and LMP Hypercar and LMDH all being based around performance balancing, why can't all three exist under the same umbrella? Of course, that's in theory, and we've seen the ACO and IMSA make a mess out of it in the past.

[canaglia]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

Yet that's not what Toyota and Glickenhaus are going for. If Audi were looking at it, I don't think they'd throw out their tradition of designing their own cars (even if Audi Sport never actually built them).

IMO, DPI, where you just stick a stock block engine in the back of an LMP2 car, is just the cheap, quick, simple way out. May as well just run a LMP2 with more open rules.

Besides, both DPI and LMDH are supposed to be BOP classes, so in theory there's just as little incentive to go one way or another anyways.

I'm already not in favor of the LMP2 rules as it's basically lead to an Oreca lead cartel. Only reason that hasn't happened in DPI is because of BOP.

All the ACO need to do is get away from the ultra big hybrid systems and fuel flow limits that made LMP1 into F1 Light in terms of budgets and tech.

well, actuall there's... since both will be bop classes as you correctly wrote, to field an hybrid hypercar (custom carbon tub + bespoke engine/hybrid) would cost x10 than a lmdh (lmp2 + cheaper semi-spec hybrid + cheaper engine).

[TF110]

I think costing 10x what an lmdh costs is quite an exaggeration. I think the cost is probably similar but the money saver is the abundance of lmp2 chassis that you can purchase. They're cheaper because they sell a lot of them and the rules cap the price.

[Deleted]

There is literally no point in having LMH except you get 100% liberty on the visual cues, instead of like 20% liberty you'd have in your external body parts on top of spec Oreca 07. In other words, it's like getting to choose the art for your book cover instead of publisher having a say in it... in the end it's all pointless because all the books here are exactly the same from word to word, theoretically, but I guess it's at a stage where you in fact do judge the book by the cover, as that is all that's left.

The only other reason would be hoping that the ACO would favor LMH BoP over the other one, you know because it's their brainchild property, but I think that's futile too if/when Toyota win the first post-LMP1 LM and Peugeot chooses the cheaper route

Anyway, LMP900 was great.

[TF110]

You also get to design your own chassis and then you get incentives for making a road car version or engine. Oreca is a great constructor but it will be a 90% job instead of a 100% one in terms of having things to your liking. I have hope that bop will be a minimal thing after the first couple of years.

[Speed-King]

Just buying someone else's car, putting [...] an engine in it doesn't make it "your car". IMO, that's the cheap and easy, minimal effort way out.

And yet, that very approach gave us some of the best racing in the 20th century in late 90s CART. And I highly doubt that it was a minimum effort project for the engine manufacturers involved.

In a way, I would actually prefer OEMs being limited to supplying engines rather than designing their own cars as it would guarantee a good supply with competitive engines for privateers and prevent independent constructors who do a good job from being steamrolled by mega-$$$ manufacturer efforts.

[canaglia]

Originally Posted by TF110

I think costing 10x what an lmdh costs is quite an exaggeration. I think the cost is probably similar but the money saver is the abundance of lmp2 chassis that you can purchase. They're cheaper because they sell a lot of them and the rules cap the price.

x10 is an exaggeration perhaps but just consider that toyota GRSS will use the same bespoke and F1tech comparable powertrain and hybrid system of TS050... consider that also the carbon monocoque is a custom TMG design...

now just think that to field and run a dpi is currently cheaper than run a GTLM program... just to say that the only toyota V6TT should cost like 3 or 4 dpi chassis.... that's why hypercar is pure madness if toyota will have to spend all that cash to run in the same performance window of much cheaper lmdh that basically will be a mild hybrid dpi+

[Deleted]

Originally Posted by TF110

I have hope that bop will be a minimal thing after the first couple of years.

How?

They've even said they want to integrate Zero Emission into this thing, not as separate class but all jammed together, how could you do that without extensive round by round fiddling

[TF110]

Originally Posted by Chiana

How?

They've even said they want to integrate Zero Emission into this thing, not as separate class but all jammed together, how could you do that without extensive round by round fiddling

Because of the way they are talking about the rules of the cars being aligned there should be minimal bop, at least in the wec unless they want to continue down the road of dumbing down Toyota which is proving to be very unpopular. I'd like to think that they see this now and use it as a warning not to mess with things every round.

[Maelochs]

Why am I not surprised to see the same debate I have been reading since ….. since I learned to read?

Economics have changed. No tobacco money, no or low alcohol money, low or no manufacturer money for most teams, while the cost of competing has continues to rise and the cost of design and construction has skyrocketed.

Racing was a huge money-loser even in its heyday—it was sold to boards of directors as “advertising,” and I guess it was a good sales job. Those days have been gone for 40 years now …

The return on investment for a racing program is Very questionable. And it’s not the factories where that is an issue, but all the privateers … the cost of funding a competitive program when the opposition is a global automaking powerhouse is ridiculous. And most teams cannot do it ….

Yeah, some things were better in the past. Can-Am was glorious … even though a “close finish” might be half a lap and half the cars weren’t running at the end …. And all the winners were McLarens until they were always Porsches.

GTP was pretty awesome … particularly for the half the field with 962s.

ILMC and early WEC were great …. Though of course, either Audi or Peugeot won. No one else much had a chance.

ALMS was great …. For Audi in P1 and Porsche in P2.

Nostalgia-vision lies in wait for all of us … except the ones who have already succumbed.

I think we all want the sort of series where teams or factories build their own cars and engines, where all the cars look and sound different ….

We want open rules so teams can modify their cars from race to race, so each weekend we are thrilled to see the new developments each team has concocted.

But we also want big fields, and competitive racing. We want no BoP but if every race was won by the same car by half a lap to two laps, would we complain? You know we would.

The question has been, for years, where does the money come from? If teams cannot afford to design and build chassis, if the cost of computer time and parts manufacture is so great that teams cannot afford to constantly modify their cars, if track testing is too expensive for most teams …. Then how do we keep racing alive?

Sadly, we dumb it down a little. We have to accept the fact that no one can afford to do that kind of racing we wish we could have. We have to limit development or only two or three factories can afford to play. YES, LMP2 and DPi are severely cost-controlled classes—because if they were not, nobody would be able to race.

For those people who would prefer no racing to what we have now … Super. You just solved the problem. Don’t watch racing.

For those people who understand that racing is a non-essential activity, and that we could seriously Not have racing …. We might as well enjoy what we have as much as we can. And if it doesn’t get you where you need to be, you need to move on—for your own sake. The past is Not returning.

We should be glad we don’t line in the era of computer-controlled electronic cars …. Because that is a likely possible future. Drivers never die because they drive from the Driver’s Studio, wired into simulator consoles, while robotic E-racers circle the tracks …. Cleaner, greener, safer, very late 21st –century … we might be headed there.

Enjoy what you can, if you can. If you cannot …. Move on.

[Speed-King]

We have to limit development or only two or three factories can afford to play. [...]

We should be glad we don’t line in the era of computer-controlled electronic cars …. Because that is a likely possible future. Drivers never die because they drive from the Driver’s Studio, wired into simulator consoles, while robotic E-racers circle the tracks …. Cleaner, greener, safer, very late 21st –century … we might be headed there.

Great analysis, but I think you are drawing the wrong conclusions. Yes, the manufacturers are headed for exactly the scenario you are describing. But racing doesn't have to follow them!

I think at this point - and even more so in the future - racing would be better off without manufacturer involvement. Because when you only have privateers, you suddenly can have more open regulations again, because no one has the megabucks to completely outdevelop their opposition and it comes once again down to just being smarter. Point in case: Pescarolo developed the aero for the C60 by coasting down the runway at the Le Mans airport, because he couldn't afford windtunnel time. Worked just fine (against other privateers) and probably saved Henri a ton of money.

Really, I'd rather have three or four guys like Glickenhaus, who are really in it for their love of racing, at the front of the field at Le Mans than three or four manufacturers who just see it as a marketing exercise.

I think a lot of responsibility rests with the ACO here: If they follow the manufacturers to that electric, computer-controlled future, ICE-powered and human driven race cars will become a very niche sport. But if the ACO decided to stick with the ICE (and by all means fuel it with something green like the Isobutanol Dyson used in 2011!), the lustre and standing of the 24h of Le Mans will continue to attract the sort of well-heeled individuals that can afford to race and develop their own top-level prototypes.

[Anyopenroad]

Originally Posted by Speed-King

I think at this point - and even more so in the future - racing would be better off without manufacturer involvement. Because when you only have privateers, you suddenly can have more open regulations again, because no one has the megabucks to completely outdevelop their opposition and it comes once again down to just being smarter.



...


Really, I'd rather have three or four guys like Glickenhaus, who are really in it for their love of racing, at the front of the field at Le Mans than three or four manufacturers who just see it as a marketing exercise.

I totally agree. I also think Maeloch's analysis of the changing world is completely spot on. The passionate arguments here for a world that is different are heart-felt but pointless. The future of our sport is privateers, not manufacturers.

[truebeliever]

Originally Posted by Anyopenroad

I totally agree. I also think Maeloch's analysis of the changing world is completely spot on. The passionate arguments here for a world that is different are heart-felt but pointless. The future of our sport is privateers, not manufacturers.

Perhaps you might want to suggest that line of thought to the ACO!

Only I would not plan on standing there waiting for their answer, as you may be there forever.

The ACO's business model is entirely based around OEM's. Just look how Glickenhaus has been treated almost with disdain, because he was not going to be dropping large bundles of cash in their laps. However, in a post Virus world, they may just have to re-think that business model.

[Maelochs]

Originally Posted by Speed-King

Great analysis, but I think you are drawing the wrong conclusions. Yes, the manufacturers are headed for exactly the scenario you are describing. But racing doesn't have to follow them!

I think at this point - and even more so in the future - racing would be better off without manufacturer involvement. Because when you only have privateers, you suddenly can have more open regulations again, because no one has the megabucks to completely outdevelop their opposition and it comes once again down to just being smarter.

Originally Posted by Anyopenroad

I totally agree. I also think Maeloch's analysis of the changing world is completely spot on. The passionate arguments here for a world that is different are heart-felt but pointless. The future of our sport is privateers, not manufacturers.

I hope both of you are right.

[Anyopenroad]

Originally Posted by truebeliever

Perhaps you might want to suggest that line of thought to the ACO!

If only they were regular browsers of this forum, they wouldn't be making such silly mistakes! :-)

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by Anyopenroad

If only they were regular browsers of this forum, they wouldn't be making such silly mistakes! :-)

[carbsmith]

Originally Posted by truebeliever

The ACO's business model is entirely based around OEM's.

Because the ACO's business model is entirely based around Le Mans, which operates on an entirely different plane from the rest of sports car racing. That race alone is one of the few things in motorsport that approaches F1 for prestige and attention and they've always tried to pull up the sport with that rather than pull down the race to the level of everything else like Indy did.

F1 itself is going to be back to a privateer based sport if anything after this anyways though, so we're going to be in for a big adjustment to what a big time racing program looks like. Hopefully the answer isn't just spec cars and GT4 for everyone but scaling down to where innovation is viable instead of 100 people working on a winglet.

[Deleted]

But they do have a plan B... it's called Alpine-Aurus Roadshow...

[Speed-King]

Originally Posted by carbsmith

Because the ACO's business model is entirely based around Le Mans, which operates on an entirely different plane from the rest of sports car racing. That race alone is one of the few things in motorsport that approaches F1 for prestige and attention and they've always tried to pull up the sport with that rather than pull down the race to the level of everything else like Indy did.

Maybe until 2012, but with the advent of BoP and bespoke privateer classes, they abandoned any pretext of that at least for the GT classes. Next was new LMP2 aka the Oreca-Gibson cartel, and with hypercar/LMDH even the top class is falling into that mold now.

It's really a shame, though. Rebellion and SMP did a great job at showing us that open development between privateers is still a viable concept - and I'm sure even more private teams would join the fray if they had no manufacturers to content with and thus a reasonable chance at an overall victory at LM.

[jimclark]

Originally Posted by carbsmith

Because the ACO's business model is entirely based around Le Mans, which operates on an entirely different plane from the rest of sports car racing. That race alone is one of the few things in motorsport that approaches F1 for prestige and attention and they've always tried to pull up the sport with that rather than pull down the race to the level of everything else like Indy did.

F1 itself is going to be back to a privateer based sport if anything after this anyways though, so we're going to be in for a big adjustment to what a big time racing program looks like. Hopefully the answer isn't just spec cars and GT4 for everyone but scaling down to where innovation is viable instead of 100 people working on a winglet.

[Deleted]

Originally Posted by Speed-King

Maybe until 2012, but with the advent of BoP and bespoke privateer classes, they abandoned any pretext of that at least for the GT classes. Next was new LMP2 aka the Oreca-Gibson cartel, and with hypercar/LMDH even the top class is falling into that mold now.

It's really a shame, though. Rebellion and SMP did a great job at showing us that open development between privateers is still a viable concept - and I'm sure even more private teams would join the fray if they had no manufacturers to content with and thus a reasonable chance at an overall victory at LM.

Yessssss SMP vs Rebellion was great.

I like making historical comparisons, and I'd like to think the last few years as like the one of "Five Good Emperors" in ancient Rome. While it was true that the underlying system had been fundamentally broken and made corrupt, the powers in force still managed to make relative best of the situation and enable the Empire, or here racing, to breath. There was no going back to the Republic - or Le Mans of the past - but in relative terms, there was prosperity to be had. Now, next will come the ascension of Commodus however, or in other terms the mandation of full bop and spec regs with OEM branding focus (in conjunction with economical crisis), the start of final collapse...

[Maelochs]

Originally Posted by Chiana

Yessssss SMP vs Rebellion was great.

I like making historical comparisons, and I'd like to think the last few years as like the one of "Five Good Emperors" in ancient Rome. While it was true that the underlying system had been fundamentally broken and made corrupt, the powers in force still managed to make relative best of the situation and enable the Empire, or here racing, to breath. There was no going back to the Republic - or Le Mans of the past - but in relative terms, there was prosperity to be had. Now, next will come the ascension of Commodus however, or in other terms the mandation of full bop and spec regs with OEM branding focus (in conjunction with economical crisis), the start of final collapse...

Awesome historical metaphor. Will we have East and West Le Mans?

I sort of agree. There is no way to return to the past ... fifty or 80 years ago, everything was new and exciting. By the mid-70s, people had seen 220+ mph cars, several hundred horsepower, huge downforce .... the public was jaded, the businesses were starting to question RoI, and the weasels were looking for ways to take over motor racing (as they have taken over everything else) to leach value out of it without adding any real value to it.

Maybe motor racing on a smaller scale will work .... but given real estate costs, track maintenance, and the cost of media contracts (not sure TV will be a big force 20 years from now) I am not sure that motor racing, as it has been for the last century, will exist much any more.

It is a question of fan base, ultimately. There have to be enough fans for sponsors to be willing to fund teams, even privateers ... or enough billionaire enthusiasts willing to bankroll teams at a loss for the fun of it. Sponsors are the only sustainable cash source ... and as the fan base shrinks (how many 18-25-year-olds are excited by cars anymore?) sponsor value shrinks ....

Fans used to pay for the tracks, but with real estate values rising, how many track owners are going to make enough money selling tickets to cover the cost of the tracks? How many will sell out to developers?

I'd be happy to see a bunch of full-on two- and three-liter normally aspirated sports racers and GTs going at it .... a lot more affordable than all the "cutting-edge", change-every-season regulations we have now. But how many people will be happy watching cars going by slower than they used to?

For me, Matra V-12s and Cosworth DFVs, Ferrari 312s, Porche 907s and 908s, 910s .... Alpines .... absolutely fine with me. But how many people (other than fans of this site) would be up for that?

Shoot, I would be fine with stock-block engines, given the degree of sophistication out there now .... just wrap them in light little bodies, insane power/weight ratios .... but how do you excite a new fan who doesn't own or ever want to own a car to begin with?

Uber Le Mans? the Lyft 12 Hours of Sebring. Not seeing it .....

[truebeliever]

Originally Posted by Maelochs

Awesome historical metaphor. Will we have East and West Le Mans?

I sort of agree. There is no way to return to the past ... fifty or 80 years ago, everything was new and exciting. By the mid-70s, people had seen 220+ mph cars, several hundred horsepower, huge downforce .... the public was jaded, the businesses were starting to question RoI, and the weasels were looking for ways to take over motor racing (as they have taken over everything else) to leach value out of it without adding any real value to it.

Maybe motor racing on a smaller scale will work .... but given real estate costs, track maintenance, and the cost of media contracts (not sure TV will be a big force 20 years from now) I am not sure that motor racing, as it has been for the last century, will exist much any more.

It is a question of fan base, ultimately. There have to be enough fans for sponsors to be willing to fund teams, even privateers ... or enough billionaire enthusiasts willing to bankroll teams at a loss for the fun of it. Sponsors are the only sustainable cash source ... and as the fan base shrinks (how many 18-25-year-olds are excited by cars anymore?) sponsor value shrinks ....

Fans used to pay for the tracks, but with real estate values rising, how many track owners are going to make enough money selling tickets to cover the cost of the tracks? How many will sell out to developers?

I'd be happy to see a bunch of full-on two- and three-liter normally aspirated sports racers and GTs going at it .... a lot more affordable than all the "cutting-edge", change-every-season regulations we have now. But how many people will be happy watching cars going by slower than they used to?

For me, Matra V-12s and Cosworth DFVs, Ferrari 312s, Porche 907s and 908s, 910s .... Alpines .... absolutely fine with me. But how many people (other than fans of this site) would be up for that?

Shoot, I would be fine with stock-block engines, given the degree of sophistication out there now .... just wrap them in light little bodies, insane power/weight ratios .... but how do you excite a new fan who doesn't own or ever want to own a car to begin with?

Uber Le Mans? the Lyft 12 Hours of Sebring. Not seeing it .....

Sensible, logical assessment, I applaud you!

Motorsports as we all knew it a few scant months ago, is gone forever.

What format, if any, will come along to replace it?

No one knows right here and now. Truth is, motorsports had become the dog eating its own tail and was destined to collapse even without this man made virus crisis we find ourselves in.

Has anyone seen any dinosaurs in their neighborhood recently?

[carbsmith]

Originally Posted by Maelochs

I'd be happy to see a bunch of full-on two- and three-liter normally aspirated sports racers and GTs going at it .... a lot more affordable than all the "cutting-edge", change-every-season regulations we have now. But how many people will be happy watching cars going by slower than they used to?

It does not cost nearly the current budgets to produce current lap times, they are massively inflated by marketing requirements forcing sub-optimal performance platforms that operate in actual performance windows that haven't really changed from 20 or 30 years ago. A $100,000 tube frame pushrod Trans-Am car is as fast as a $600,000 direct injected turbocharged carbon everything GT3. Heck just look at Hypercar's projected lap times being the same as a current LMP2 car for several times the money, or how LMP3 is the cheapest class in ELMS by a wide margin but the second fastest.

If you take the factories and the "gentleman" brand posturing out of things you can get respectable performance pretty cheap comparatively speaking.