Mass Dampers (merged) - Page 3

Sodemo · 30 Jul 2006, 12:27 (Ref:1667775)

Does anyone know the reasons behind the banning of the mass damper systems?

luke · 30 Jul 2006, 12:39 (Ref:1667786)

No but it proves its the car that makes the driver. Where is Alonso? 9th? Would be nice if the FIA could look into the secret launch control

as well hehe.

Looks like Ferando is going to be lapped. Flashes of Hungary 2003 revenge. As it was Fern that lapped Schui down in 8th...

flor · 30 Jul 2006, 12:43 (Ref:1667790)

it was some very weird reason, i think something like moving part with influence on the aero

ParkLife · 30 Jul 2006, 12:58 (Ref:1667811)

The means by which they were banned was the movable aerodynamic equipment rule. The reason for the ban was the FIA was concerned at where the development of these devices were heading.

The device is essentially a small, but very high mass weight that is not rigidly fixed within the car. They do not like the idea of these items breaking free in the event of a crash. They have pretty much stated that they don't have a problem with the current devices, it was more to do with what these devices might be developed into.

So my question isn't so much as to why these devices have been banned, but rather why they needed to be banned mid-season. Especially after they had already been approved by the FIA and allowed to run for over 12 months. A much neater solution would have been to simply ban them from 2007. Changing rules unnecessarily in the middle of a season is just bad form in my opinion.

mjstallard · 30 Jul 2006, 13:42 (Ref:1667855)

ITV mentioned that they believe mass dampers will be permitted from the Hungaroring onwards. Classic FIA consistency in the application of the rules if you ask me..

freud · 30 Jul 2006, 14:57 (Ref:1667904)

Basically its a usual FIA/F1 political gimmick.. 'We're with Ferrari'.. The aim is to restore the balance of power in favor of Ferrari. Decisions like these dont affect the performance of the car much as the 'psyche' of the staff. Every team has to go through so much during a race weekend.. race preparation is an enormous task. And when your mind is focused on stupid little things like dampers, you lose critical insight on other aspects. No wonder the gimmick worked will and Renault was beaten by both Mclaren and Honda.

Stuart Hill · 30 Jul 2006, 15:04 (Ref:1667913)

more to the point is.........

how does this affect the Championship???? ====== makes it closer.

so who wins???

Obviously Ferrari but more importantly, the Championship is now close which means???

More Interest, which ====
More Viewers, which ====

MORE MONEY !!!!!!!!

maybe I'm being cinical but........ having just heard that "maybe the dampers will be legal from the next race" makes me wonder what is going on.

freud · 30 Jul 2006, 15:08 (Ref:1667916)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stuart Hill

more to the point is.........

how does this affect the Championship???? ====== makes it closer.

so who wins???

Obviously Ferrari but more importantly, the Championship is now close which means???

More Interest, which ====
More Viewers, which ====

MORE MONEY !!!!!!!!

maybe I'm being cinical but........ having just heard that "maybe the dampers will be legal from the next race" makes me wonder what is going on.

Well the dampers are legal for now (interestingly the same FIA had declared them legal at the start of this season) but the FIA will surely file against the Steward ruling.

More drama.. more headache for Renault to come!

I am glad they get a chance to drive at Hungary with the dampers. I am sure that the renault chassis would've lost a few microseconds at those scary kerbs if they didnt have the damper system..

mjstallard · 30 Jul 2006, 15:32 (Ref:1667927)

Shame the FIA haven't figured out that more racing would bring more interest and hence more money...

Stuart Hill · 30 Jul 2006, 16:26 (Ref:1667969)

Quote:

Originally Posted by freud

Well the dampers are legal for now (interestingly the same FIA had declared them legal at the start of this season)

so how can the FIA possibly rule them illegal now???? unless?????????

either something is Legal or Not. end of story.

if this many teams (maybe 7) have run with this system only to now find out it's "illegal", where does this put the sport and how can the teams trust what Charlie and his mates say? ie:

Was it legal to start with or have you now decided to ban it for another reason???

BootsOntheSide · 30 Jul 2006, 16:42 (Ref:1667981)

If the problem isn't with the current devices, but with possible future devices, a far better approach would be to allow the current ones for the rest of the season. For next year they can either ban them completely or come up with a maximum safe system to allow. When teams are developing things not knowing how long they will be legal for, it doesn't seem to encourage ingenuity. I can understand why some suspect that the decision would have been very different if it were Ferrari gaining the most from the system.

Gt_R · 30 Jul 2006, 18:10 (Ref:1668072)

Of course, it is another giant conspiracy isn't it freud?

We don't need to remember that Ferrari do use a similar system which is equally being outlawed by FIA's recent change is viewpoint.

I've voiced disappointment over the banning of the system because it restricts innovation in F1, whether if it's initiated by Renault or Midland. Technical articles have suggested that Renault chose to play safe over FIA's indecision because the system has limited use in Hockenheim compared to other circuits. To have the system re-installed for Hungary would be a boost for Renault, as it is theoretically the place where the system would come to good use. If FIA is anti-Renault, they would have banned it for Hungary instead.

I agree FIA's changes mid-season (every season things like this happens) is destablizing and frustrating. However, please refrain from linking every FIA's call to a conspiracy with Ferrari.

Let me just highlight one point. Earlier this season, the flexi-wings saga... Ferrari rumoured to be using it first...and Monster suggested it is an FIA's conspiracy which saw FIA ban the system just at the point where other teams like Renault catch up (although later it's revealed that BMW who is the one pushing the boundaries of flexiwings). Now the damper system.. roles reversed. Renault started using it...12months later, teams like Ferrari and Mclaren catches up... and FIA ban it... and different system, but similar process... and still it is a Ferrari-conspiracy suggested by another critic. What gives?

FIA is concerned about the system. They chose independently to ban it. It doesn't have to be with a conscious effort to help any particular team. Ferrari won at French GP and Indy GP even though Renault used the dampers system. To suggest that Renault lost because of a conspiracy that ban the system is logic twisted.

freud · 30 Jul 2006, 18:18 (Ref:1668086)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stuart Hill

so how can the FIA possibly rule them illegal now???? unless?????????

either something is Legal or Not. end of story.

if this many teams (maybe 7) have run with this system only to now find out it's "illegal", where does this put the sport and how can the teams trust what Charlie and his mates say? ie:

Was it legal to start with or have you now decided to ban it for another reason???

Well, here's 'Bernie & Moseley circus' for you!

I mean how did the Indian driver Nayran Kovalenerthanan got a drive last year while there were better drivers sitting outside? Simply because Bernie wanted an Indian in F1.. even he's a schmuck doesnt matter..

GTR thinks damper ban will also affect Ferrari... sorry it will not. Ferarri has the best tyre on grid that is upto a second faster than mchelin. Damper or no damper.. they'll do well till the end season. And by the way, the issue isnt who will be affected and who wont.. the issue is the political milage. F1 is not run by 20 year old screaming fans.

Gt_R · 30 Jul 2006, 18:18 (Ref:1668087)

Anyway, to prevent this thread from falling into another bash Ferrari/FIA campaign for the theorist, the latest from FIA is that they insist that they are not planning to drop the appeal against their stewards (as oppose to what recent news rumors claim). The implication of which is that all teams, including Renault, are still not allowed to use it in Hungary, as earlier reports suggested. Interesting to see how the FIA vs FIA stewards pan out.

Another point ( maybe some posters should be enlightened on this) is that 7 teams have been using the mass damper system in the course of this season. Not only Renault.

Gt_R · 30 Jul 2006, 18:25 (Ref:1668097)

freud. you don't seem to be as bothered when Michelin had tyres 1 second faster than Bridgestones in 2005 and for the first half of 2006. And it's not just a tyre under-performing issue when Renault has 2 other Michelin teams finishing ahead of them.

A good car doesn't turn bad over a weekend. The rate at which the tyres eat up and blister suggest perhaps (1) wrong tyre choice (2) wrong set-ups. All teams, even Bridgestone runners, suffer blistering and high wear rates. Bridgestone perhaps have this race better covered (considering Toyota's strong pace and Webber running up in front), but it's about time the tyre war favours the BS runners.

Jaxs · 30 Jul 2006, 18:26 (Ref:1668099)

The tuned mass weight damper, would point more towards an adjustable damper system that would literally adjust the body height and increase or decrease aerodynamics at speed. Loose or unsecured weights would be against regulations and work against any gains by increasing the minimum weight, a very undisirable effect.

Consider a vehicle at high speed and down force lowering the height of the vehicle. Now, if this was controlled to enable the maximum effect at all speeds whilst maintaining the correct stationary ride height.

The contravention would be in the variable ride height, whilst stationary the car would conform but once on the move....

The idea of constant ride height is not new but there is no allowance under the F1 rules .. or there wasn't until now. The stewards allowed but the FIA want a closer look.

Stuart Hill · 30 Jul 2006, 18:48 (Ref:1668117)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gt_R

Another point ( maybe some posters should be enlightened on this) is that 7 teams have been using the mass damper system in the course of this season. Not only Renault.

this is exactly my point.........

It WAS legal, now it ISN'T !!!!!! who decided when to make it Illegal and Why???

Gt_R · 30 Jul 2006, 19:01 (Ref:1668127)

It's difficult to pin point when to make it illegal, considering that some parts evolve and change. What was originally a normal innovation may just grow to a point where FIA deem it unacceptable.

Teams exploit loopholes... and even FIA and/or stewards often exploit loopholes in their own regulations when implementing changes by using clauses that cannot or usually will not be challenged by teams, such as "safety grounds" for BMW's vertical wings or sporting grounds, in a simplified and more straight-forward means of achieving their aim.

Many people often fail to recognise or accept that any decision in a real world is bound to affect one party more than another, even if it doesn't provide for benefits.

Why? The technical details would only be really known by the FIA technical department and teams. But Flavio isn't one who stand quiet if he feels his team isn't being treated right, and they didn't protest much to FIA's decision. It goes to show that the teams are consulted and came to a compromise of the best way forward.

I heard Renault has agreed to help FIA shape the rules regarding mass dampers for next season.

JeremySmith · 30 Jul 2006, 19:57 (Ref:1668161)

Well I am now totally confused..How is it possible to contest a championship when rules and regulations are changing every other weekend? If the mass damper system is not legal, then *are* other teams still using this system? and if so why is that? maybe someone with more knowledge than I would be good enough to explain..Thank's

Marbot · 30 Jul 2006, 20:01 (Ref:1668164)

Quote:

Originally Posted by JeremySmith

How is it possible to contest a championship when rules and regulations are changing every other weekend?

Mario Theissen said pretty much the same thing.

But no one ran with the dampers at the weekend,although i heard that some teams spare cars had them fitted.

JeremySmith · 30 Jul 2006, 21:54 (Ref:1668297)

Thank you martyn!

Stuart Hill · 30 Jul 2006, 21:57 (Ref:1668302)

Quote:

Originally Posted by martyn bott

But no one ran with the dampers at the weekend,although i heard that some teams spare cars had them fitted.

which just about says it all!!!! even the teams didn't know!

**Adam43** · 30 Jul 2006, 22:09 (Ref:1668319)

er, they did know.

Anyway for those that can't cope look away now, Renault have asked if they can run them at Hungary! According to Autosport.

pop, pop, pop.

Jaxs · 30 Jul 2006, 23:15 (Ref:1668375)

It would appear that the Renault chief designer's explantion as to the exact purpose of the ' damping system' was suitably ambiguous to raise questions.

The use of the word mass and the possible function of damping or controlling unnecessary oscillation/vibration within the chassis and allow greater control of the suspension.... well, after reading that would you allow the 'mass damper' ...

It's almost like saying, our old dampers are not working and we want to fit these new ones but these wires/controls are just to level out the ride... Yer right. The excuse of equalising tyre wear again points to a possible ride height as the suspension would be at its optimum setting throughout the race. The suspension arms move through a limited arc and to maintain a constant would most advantageous for tyre wear and ride stability.

**Woolley** · 30 Jul 2006, 23:26 (Ref:1668378)

Let me just see if I've got this right. Mass dampers mounted inside the bodywork are an illegal aerodynamic aid, but downforce producing aerofoils mounted onto the inside of the wheels (as opposed to anywhere on the bodywork - ie the sprung part of the car - are not?

Sorry, but it's crass. You may as well ban suspension or insist that tyres have rigid sidewalls.

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