AMRS Round 3 (Winton) Thread

[Woolley]

Guys, please. We're not here to discuss each other. If you don't agree with someone's points then make some better ones or debate the evidence, but enough of disparaging remarks about the posters.

[Peak Revs]

Your right woolley, but it is a little frustrating

[Mark Twain]

Originally Posted by Woolley

Guys, please. We're not here to discuss each other. If you don't agree with someone's points then make some better ones or debate the evidence, but enough of disparaging remarks about the posters.

You don't understand

[Oaksnaf]

For those who are interested the coverage from the weekend is on Speedweek right now on SBS.

[Robert Ryan]

Just saw "Thundersports"(sic ) and F4000. Very sad indeed, I feel sorry for the competitors for all the hard work, they have put into the catergory, hopefully this farcial situation cannot continue.

[Robert Ryan]

Love the commentators saying F4000" Is the fastest Motorport catergory in the Country" Really!!!.

[Oaksnaf]

Originally Posted by Robert Ryan

Just saw "Thundersports"(sic ) and F4000. Very sad indeed, I feel sorry for the competitors for all the hard work, they have put into the catergory, hopefully this farcial situation cannot continue.

Is that concerning numbers?

According to those in the paddock, Queensland will be the worst round for the series, as to why? Im not sure, but since when is travelling a good excuse?

[B24]

Has anyone considered the thought that everyone that competes in motorsport are successful in their own right and these are the games that successful people play with the toy's they buy? I don't think a lot really care if no spectator's show up or 20-30 other competitors . It would be a bonus yes, yet is not going to affect their livelyhoods.
How did I come up with this point of view?
At track days, supersprints and hill climbs the priority is socialising, helping out, competing and basically having a great day out.
I watched the racing today and enjoyed it like most other racing I watch.

To all you whinging, augumentitive, negative people who give Australian's a bad name "wake up to yourselves, be positive, stop you *****ing, appreciate and enjoy what we have here!".

[Robert Ryan]

B24...if someone had to pay money to see that, it would be tragic. Well yes have fun running a hillclimb, I have no problem with some of the cars doing that...but as a "series" it is a joke.

Oaksnaf ;Numbers and the "racing". I have seen more racing on the Princes Highway. No, the competitors and the CAMS people need to come together politics aside. Why not run F4000 with F3? Both Production cars categorries together.? The Touring Car Challenge can exist as its own class..

[Robert Ryan]

watched the racing today and enjoyed it like most other racing I watch

B24, I was scratching my head trying to find any "racing" in the SBS broadcast. It was series of two processions , consisting of small fields of racing cars.

[David Towe]

Originally Posted by Robert Ryan

No, the competitors and the CAMS people need to come together politics aside. Why not run F4000 with F3? Both Production cars categorries together.? The Touring Car Challenge can exist as its own class..

Robert, do you know why the AMRS broke away from CAMS in the first place?

[Robert Ryan]

David,
Yes...but who is winning? I would prefer that some people behind the series could swallow their ego's and come together for the good of the sport.
We are not talking about the the IRL/CART, but Australian grassroots motorsport...it is pretty stupid. You are devaluing your own series, for what?

[Silver 3]

Robert, you are not seeing the reality here.Unquestionably the AMRS has problems ,but, to be fair it is effectively the first year and had nothing going for it in that birth period.With the people who should have helped last year - Cams and the Cams catergories conspiring against the organisers even before the first round what chance did they have to build a series? Out of that background they were forced into another direction .The classes that stayed with the AMRS were disrupted and destabilised over last year and that is hard to get competitor confidence in the future so some of those groups are really struggling.It isworth noting for example-- F 3 who were a major critic if the AMRS last year--despite a very much favoured Cams catergory,appearances on the best programs etc etc are stuggling for numbers(12???) and you would have to say facing a questionable future. F4000 is clearly in trouble- but with the AMRS seeking a wider eligibility( any open wheeler?) maybe it does offer a genuine alternative.It does need more than a few meetings to see. As a whole it is my view that in the interests of motorsport in general that the AMRS needs to survive.

[B24]

Originally Posted by Robert Ryan

B24...if someone had to pay money to see that, it would be tragic. Well yes have fun running a hillclimb, I have no problem with some of the cars doing that...but as a "series" it is a joke.

Oaksnaf ;Numbers and the "racing". I have seen more racing on the Princes Highway. No, the competitors and the CAMS people need to come together politics aside. Why not run F4000 with F3? Both Production cars categorries together.? The Touring Car Challenge can exist as its own class..

Well it does need work to run as a true series of racing. I do agree the fields are small. I agree with your point on putting politic's aside.More than likely why there is low numbers at these events, simply too much politics.
I'm just being patient,hoping it will come together in time.

[storyline]

David - depending on who you talk to there are two very different stories behind the problems between AMRS and CAMS last year. I guess it depends on who you want to put more faith in as to which side you really believe. There are elements of truth and - well lets say 'truth stretching' on both sides. As a competitor you will be told what each side wants you to hear - but to find the facts you need to not only talk to those actively involved but those on the periphery as well.

Silver - F4000 had major problems before the AMRS was even thought of - look what happened in their first (AMRS) year - a magnificent deal was done to take the F4000's to China. What happened here? This was supposedly set up at a time that the category was just about to split in two with two decidedly different camps and philosophies trying to run the cars. It really is a wonder they didn't self destruct completely just after the Winton round that year.

Why does the AMRS need an open wheel category? Australian race-goers have shown, since the mid-late 70's, that the only open wheel categories they will gfo and see in numbers are those involved in a truly international formula - F1 and CART/Champ Cars. The Formula Ford festivals never really brought in an audience - even when they had 80 plus cars competing (late 80's). Vee National have only really brought in those associated with the cars competing at the weekend.

Even the VMRC is struggling for open wheel cars (again, forget the politics in this one) whilst the sedans have, well sort of, reasonable fields.

The unfortunate part will be that the longer F4000's stay with AMRS the more the series will become known for having a dead category rather than trying to run any other successful categories - and they do NOT deserve that. The problem is, of course - at this stage even if they dumped F4000 (which because of AMRS investment in it they won't/can't) they do not have another category ready to jump in. Well - maybe the BMW's?

[RaceFan1112.]

Originally Posted by Robert Ryan

B24...if someone had to pay money to see that, it would be tragic. Well yes have fun running a hillclimb, I have no problem with some of the cars doing that...but as a "series" it is a joke.

Oaksnaf ;Numbers and the "racing". I have seen more racing on the Princes Highway. No, the competitors and the CAMS people need to come together politics aside. Why not run F4000 with F3? Both Production cars categorries together.? The Touring Car Challenge can exist as its own class..

Well Could'nt F3 cars Run Under the OZ BOSS Banner if they wanted to

[Silver 3]

There was a suggestion that F 4000 and F 3 do race together. The F3 group would have reluctantly agreed PROVIDING -- the F4000 performance was restricted to be SLOWER than the F3 cars. It is hard to believe that idea was promoted to F 4000 group as a solution by Cams! In reality the F 3 group general arrogance is their own worst enemy and there is not likely to be too many tears when those same people engineer the demise of that class.Of course they will have a safety net in Oz Boss to go racing!

[Chucky]

Good Lord you can make a lot of rubbish up. The problem was ther reverse. Both parties were for it except that FH weren't too keen on having an F3 doing comparable lap times!

[Silver 3]

F3 would not see which way a well organised well driven F 4000 car went.

[Robert Ryan]

F3 would not see which way a well organised well driven F 4000 car went.

This sort of arguement, sounds like a group of vultures fighting over a carcass. In this case the carcass is Australian roadracing openwheelers , or what is left of the wings and slicks catergory.

[Silver 3]

Unfortunately in this country there have been very few well organised well funded open wheel racing cars. At the peak of predecessor to F4000 ( F-Holden/brabham?) history show some well credentialled drivers using it for a career path stop. Certainly a relevent one as the jump from FF to V8's is clearly to big a gap. Quick,relevent ,competative open wheeler class would still leave the o/s option open -- yes a long shot-- it depends on someone coming thru the ranks with resources, ability and connected to achieve it.Not only confined to open wheel catergories this comment-- classes(catergories) need real numbers -30 plus to be considered viable competetative bse to create the climate to give those capable to invest in the necessary machinery.In this country you cannot then say--" 3 or 5 years old" chuck it out.We need a longer usefull life for the investment -both to create the necessary numbers and competative environment. In my view an amalgamation of cars at different specs would at least create numbers and finincial viability for open wheel race cars.

[Oaksnaf]

Formula 4000 is no longer a category where young talented drivers try to make an impression on Australian motorsport. This is because the category is mostly filled with businessmen who have their fair share of cash and have "always wanted to race". Then you a lack of manufactors who harness a youngster's talent and then drive him into bigger and better things, just like what Holden did with their program with Formula Holden - ala Kelly.

Then you have the $$ factor which is in every single category around. But why would you spend $7-10k per round to compete with 7 other guys and receive barely any notice for your achievements. When was the last time any media did a "feature" on a F4000 driver? And im not just talking about your simply interview of Sam Dale on Speedweek.

And im not quite sure how Team Sydney got Davide Amaduzzi from Italy to compete in the rounds. But that will be interesting to see how he goes as he has a decent list of motor racing experiences and giving Price's performance in the car, Davide should give Ty a run for his money.

[Silver 3]

[QUOTE=Oaksnaf]Formula 4000 is no longer a category where young talented drivers try to make an impression on Australian motorsport.
This is the point I was getting at-- you need strong viable classes to attract a mix of the aspiring and those that have reached their destination. If it takes the financially able to create the numbers I have no problem with that. In reality most catergories are going to struggle to get numbers without those financially able. Not just in the open wheeler catergories -- money and plenty of it is needed to go racing -- the numbers you quote are way light for any of the faster cars in any catergory.I make the point-- because someone has spent 25 years working to be able to afford to go motor racing they should not be discounted- but encouraged. These are the people that potentially create opportunities for others in all sorts of aspects enjoy motorsport.

[David Towe]

Originally Posted by storyline

David - depending on who you talk to there are two very different stories behind the problems between AMRS and CAMS last year. I guess it depends on who you want to put more faith in as to which side you really believe.

OK, you can probably confirm for me whether or not what I was told was the truth by answering this. What is the series affiliation fee with CAMS for the right to call a series a "National Championship"?

[Silver 3]

David, you cannot just pay a fee for the right to call something a "National Championship" under Cams. Cams believe(adamantly) that they are the ONLY ones entitled to give ANY series the title.As such - the Cams process for approval of every aspect of the class from rules to organisation must be approved by Cams.This is the point that when they remove or deny that "right" to a catergory that it can get difficult to find a place on a Cams program, especially if Cams do not want you to have one- they do approve all program spots before they become a fact.