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Old 27 Oct 2022, 07:44 (Ref:4131600)   #51
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This might be a big step up for Sauber. Going alone with a manufacturer could reap benefits.
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Old 27 Oct 2022, 09:51 (Ref:4131616)   #52
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So from 2026 Sauber will be trading in their alfa for an Audi
Howdy. no more alfalfa!

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Old 27 Oct 2022, 09:53 (Ref:4131617)   #53
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Seems Sauber have to survive a few years on their own before they become Audi.
Maybe audi will start pouring the euro in early as a down payment.
Could be a couple of hungry years to struggle through.
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Old 27 Oct 2022, 13:36 (Ref:4131642)   #54
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Could be a repeat of Sauber BMW. There is a reason why most of the F1 teams are based in the UK....
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Old 27 Oct 2022, 14:29 (Ref:4131659)   #55
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This is a more in depth article from Sky sports on the Sauber/Audi partnership.

https://www.skysports.com/f1/news/12...--poNDXtiUZEJ4
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Old 28 Oct 2022, 09:31 (Ref:4131735)   #56
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Could be a repeat of Sauber BMW. There is a reason why most of the F1 teams are based in the UK....
BMW Sauber actually did quite well, but ruined everything by taking the unprecedented step of giving up on a title fight to focus on next year. And we all know how well that turned out
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Old 28 Oct 2022, 09:43 (Ref:4131741)   #57
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Just thinking about all this - more change at Sauber. Does this make Sauber the most re-branded, re-partnered team in F1? Would need to compare over a similar timeframe but especially if Sauber's sportscar days was included, it'd have to be "up there" with some of the other more "frequent flyers".
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Old 28 Oct 2022, 10:09 (Ref:4131747)   #58
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Just thinking about all this - more change at Sauber. Does this make Sauber the most re-branded, re-partnered team in F1? Would need to compare over a similar timeframe but especially if Sauber's sportscar days was included, it'd have to be "up there" with some of the other more "frequent flyers".
It's an interesting thought - although there have been others who I think have had more change.

houston60f1 blogged about this in 2013 (obviously some changes since then)

One example is the 2005-Jordan, 2006-Midland, 2007-Spyker, 2008-Force India period. Of course followed by 2018-Racing Point Force India, 2019-Racing Point F1 Team, 2021-Aston Martin Aramco Cognizant F1 Team period for the same team.

Another example would be 1998-Tyrell, 1999-BAR, 2006 Honda followed by 2008-Honda, 2009-Brawn, 2010-Mercedes team.

You also have 1981-Toleman, 1986-Benneton, then 2002-Renault before the period of 2011-Lotus Renault GP, 2012-Lotus F1, 2016-Renault Sport F1 followed by 2021 Apine.

And let's not forget 1997-Stewart Grand Prix, 1999 Jaguar Racing, 2005-Red Bull Racing.

In comparison, I think Sauber has been on par with many other teams.
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Old 28 Oct 2022, 13:55 (Ref:4131785)   #59
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It's an interesting thought - although there have been others who I think have had more change.

houston60f1 blogged about this in 2013 (obviously some changes since then)

One example is the 2005-Jordan, 2006-Midland, 2007-Spyker, 2008-Force India period. Of course followed by 2018-Racing Point Force India, 2019-Racing Point F1 Team, 2021-Aston Martin Aramco Cognizant F1 Team period for the same team.

Another example would be 1998-Tyrell, 1999-BAR, 2006 Honda followed by 2008-Honda, 2009-Brawn, 2010-Mercedes team.

You also have 1981-Toleman, 1986-Benneton, then 2002-Renault before the period of 2011-Lotus Renault GP, 2012-Lotus F1, 2016-Renault Sport F1 followed by 2021 Apine.

And let's not forget 1997-Stewart Grand Prix, 1999 Jaguar Racing, 2005-Red Bull Racing.

In comparison, I think Sauber has been on par with many other teams.
I guess the unique aspect of Sauber over those teams mentioned is with Sauber they have always retained a shareholding in the team throughout all their different identities.
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Old 28 Oct 2022, 14:36 (Ref:4131800)   #60
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loved me those Red Bull Sauber years!
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Old 28 Oct 2022, 15:12 (Ref:4131804)   #61
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I guess the unique aspect of Sauber over those teams mentioned is with Sauber they have always retained a shareholding in the team throughout all their different identities.
Is it unique?

Genuine question - did Renault retain shares in the team when it went through the Lotus Renault GP and Lotus F1 iterations?
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Old 28 Oct 2022, 15:23 (Ref:4131810)   #62
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Sauber-Mercedes
Sauber-BMW
Sauber-Audi

When will we see a Sauber-Opel on the grid?
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Old 28 Oct 2022, 16:07 (Ref:4131820)   #63
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Sauber-Mercedes
Sauber-BMW
Sauber-Audi

When will we see a Sauber-Opel on the grid?

Sauber-Porsche?
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Old 28 Oct 2022, 16:19 (Ref:4131827)   #64
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Sauber-Porsche?
Sauber-Ford Cologne
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Old 28 Oct 2022, 16:26 (Ref:4131830)   #65
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Sauber-Porsche?
Probably the wrong thread to post this but I read that Williams Porsche is an almost done deal on a 50/50 shareholding. I think it stems from that man Jack Plooij again.

Its on this link. https://www.gpblog.com/en/news/15021...ent-owner.html
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Old 28 Oct 2022, 17:13 (Ref:4131846)   #66
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I am not sure Jack Plooij is a good source...
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Old 28 Oct 2022, 18:58 (Ref:4131871)   #67
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Sauber-Mercedes
Sauber-BMW
Sauber-Audi

When will we see a Sauber-Opel on the grid?

With brands like Alfa-Romeo and Maserati in the Stellantis portfolio I would doubt it.
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Old 28 Oct 2022, 20:27 (Ref:4131882)   #68
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Probably the wrong thread to post this but I read that Williams Porsche is an almost done deal on a 50/50 shareholding. I think it stems from that man Jack Plooij again.

Its on this link. https://www.gpblog.com/en/news/15021...ent-owner.html
Who knows if that is accurate, but if you believe the RBR story, it was the question of who is ultimately in control. These "50/50" deals always seem to be a recipe for conflict and arguments for who is in control. They can't truly be "50/50"

I think RBR wanted a 50+/50- deal with them on the plus side and Porsche wanted to be on the plus side as well. If I was Porsche, there is zero chance I would be on the negative side of any deal with Williams. So this would be an effective buyout of Williams even if they don't purchase 100%

Richard
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Old 29 Oct 2022, 11:58 (Ref:4131926)   #69
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Who knows if that is accurate, but if you believe the RBR story, it was the question of who is ultimately in control. These "50/50" deals always seem to be a recipe for conflict and arguments for who is in control. They can't truly be "50/50"

Richard
Williams has already been filled with VW people like Capito, so perhaps such a deal has more chance of working?

A 50:50 stake with Sir Frank would, of course, be unthinkable!
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Old 29 Oct 2022, 17:06 (Ref:4131950)   #70
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A 50:50 stake with Sir Frank would, of course, be unthinkable!
Especially since he passed and his heirs sold out.
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Old 29 Oct 2022, 17:15 (Ref:4131953)   #71
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V8 meant that during Frank’s time sharing the decision making would be unthinkable!
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Old 29 Oct 2022, 18:58 (Ref:4131957)   #72
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Williams has already been filled with VW people like Capito, so perhaps such a deal has more chance of working?

A 50:50 stake with Sir Frank would, of course, be unthinkable!
Agree on the Frank part.

But when I think of stuff like this, I don't think of who currently fills the positions, but rather the organizational and power structure (power in this case defined by controlling interest). Lets say Dorilton maintains a controlling interest after a deal with Porsche. Just because they have VW leaning staff in management positions today, doesn't mean that might not change in the future. And given how things fell apart for Porsche with the RBR deal over who was in control, I cant imagine them partnering with Williams unless...

1. They want control and get control (majority owner)
2. The have backed away from wanting full control

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Old 30 Oct 2022, 01:05 (Ref:4132010)   #73
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Having a manu with an ever changing corporate hierarchy would be different to having an individual as a partner tho….at the onset of their partnership, how much of the team did Patrick Head have?

assuming it was never 50/50 but that aside, surely Frank was willing to entertain different types of ownership. The IPO for example was acceptable provided he controlled the majority of board seats?

With the Sauber BMW partnership, PS had given up board and team control to BMW if memory serves?
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Old 30 Oct 2022, 18:28 (Ref:4132072)   #74
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Of course Sauber and Williams are in a different (financial) position than RBR.
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Old 30 Oct 2022, 21:58 (Ref:4132118)   #75
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Agree on the Frank part.



But when I think of stuff like this, I don't think of who currently fills the positions, but rather the organizational and power structure (power in this case defined by controlling interest). Lets say Dorilton maintains a controlling interest after a deal with Porsche. Just because they have VW leaning staff in management positions today, doesn't mean that might not change in the future. And given how things fell apart for Porsche with the RBR deal over who was in control, I cant imagine them partnering with Williams unless...



1. They want control and get control (majority owner)

2. The have backed away from wanting full control



Richard
What a great investment by Dorlilin though, they got Williams at a fire sale price just as the value of teams shot up. If the Porsche deal goes through, I bet they double their initial investment and will still own 50% of the team.

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