Australia's Greatest Touring car driver and why?

[racer69]

Originally Posted by twisted

Thats not what the "law of averages" would tell us!
You have got your conclusion wong I think.

If it was easy to win back then, wouldn't more people have done so?? What 'law of averages' are you referring to?

[Senna05]

I see the V8 Guys have re-written the history books to fit their new destiny, in Races and not Rounds.

[twisted]

Originally Posted by racer69

If it was easy to win back then, wouldn't more people have done so?? What 'law of averages' are you referring to?

In the old days less pro drivers,
less pro teams ie 1 in 10 odds
moe pro teams now say 1 in 20 ?
What do you think?

[chavez]

Originally Posted by twisted

In the old days less pro drivers,
less pro teams ie 1 in 10 odds
moe pro teams now say 1 in 20 ?
What do you think?

Pick any era and only a mere handful of drivers were likely winners.

The same goes for today.

If anyone else other than Whincup, Lowndes, Winterbottom, Tander or maybe Holdsworth win at Winton it would be a surprise.

The number of professional teams has grown but the numbers of potential winners has not grown at the same rate.

[parkingjedi]

"Peter perfect" for me. He was the Greatest. 9 wins at the 1000, the winner now gets a trophy named after him...yep that doesn't happen unless you are the "king"

[mctshirt]

Originally Posted by racer69

It's not got alot to do with the car these days? Take Jason Bright or this year the Kelly's as an example, good drivers in not-so competitive cars and are struggling.

If a good driver can't get a bad car to the front it follows they can't be one of the greats.

Another example would be why Tander will never be a great despite winning a championship:
fast car = winner
slower car = nowhere
(really only a matter of time till he starts bashing his way past cars again)

With an average driver the pace of the car determines the position whereas a great driver will be closer to the pointy end ignoring the laws of physics and car speed.

[twisted]

Originally Posted by mctshirt

If a good driver can't get a bad car to the front it follows they can't be one of the greats.

Another example would be why Tander will never be a great despite winning a championship:
fast car = winner
slower car = nowhere
(really only a matter of time till he starts bashing his way past cars again)

With an average driver the pace of the car determines the position whereas a great driver will be closer to the pointy end ignoring the laws of physics and car speed.

A driver can get the best out of a car....But if you are talking about the complete package.....nobody in my experiance is more than a second slower around a track like Mallala (for example) in the same car....so if the car is 3 seconds slower there is no way the driver can make that up period!

[racer69]

Originally Posted by mctshirt

If a good driver can't get a bad car to the front it follows they can't be one of the greats.

Another example would be why Tander will never be a great despite winning a championship:
fast car = winner
slower car = nowhere
(really only a matter of time till he starts bashing his way past cars again)

With an average driver the pace of the car determines the position whereas a great driver will be closer to the pointy end ignoring the laws of physics and car speed.

No one argue's the talent of the likes of Brock and Richards, yet the times when they had uncompetitive cars they were hardly troubling the leaders.

eg... when they were both in BMWs in 1988, Richards in the GrpC 635 etc...

[mctshirt]

Originally Posted by racer69

No one argue's the talent of the likes of Brock and Richards, yet the times when they had uncompetitive cars they were hardly troubling the leaders.

eg... when they were both in BMWs in 1988, Richards in the GrpC 635 etc...

Fair call - those examples were underpowered cars in the glory days of mixed breed racing but arguably Brock and Richards could wring so much out of those cars they placed further up the field than they should have.

IIRC Jim Richards had some good results in the rain in that 635 but then he was the rainmeister.

In 1986 Brock was able to hustle a Commodore around the wet streets of Wellington a couple of seconds faster per lap than Moffat.

I suppose it comes back to a definition of greatness which IMHO are the drivers that sometimes made things happen that shouldn't have happened.

[Winston05]

Originally Posted by mctshirt

I suppose it comes back to a definition of greatness which IMHO are the drivers that sometimes made things happen that shouldn't have happened.

Like Lowndes winning in '96. This was back in the days when drivers in their late twenties were considered to be young and there was no V8 development series. That was something very special that we will probably not see for a very long time, if ever.

[cavvy]

Originally Posted by mctshirt

If a good driver can't get a bad car to the front it follows they can't be one of the greats.

Another example would be why Tander will never be a great despite winning a championship:
fast car = winner
slower car = nowhere
(really only a matter of time till he starts bashing his way past cars again)

With an average driver the pace of the car determines the position whereas a great driver will be closer to the pointy end ignoring the laws of physics and car speed.

Interested in your view on Ambrose relative to Tanders FF victory from a WA base?
Most rank Ambrose, me included.

[bazil]

Originally Posted by cavvy

Interested in your view on Ambrose relative to Tanders FF victory from a WA base?
Most rank Ambrose, me included.

Ambrose is mechanically in tune with his car, better than the average caramello bear. Sorry cavvy, i know I was not who you were asking but its a fact.

[cavvy]

Originally Posted by bazil

Ambrose is mechanically in tune with his car, better than the average caramello bear. Sorry cavvy, i know I was not who you were asking but its a fact.

Q for the tshirt Baz, I was suggesting a crock for his preference .. A has clearly outperformed T since the FF days, & T has done heaps on his own.

I follow Garth.

[Henry]

How does one truly quantify the Greatest? I think most here agree that statistics don't tell the whole story, and the rest is mainly subjective...

Ian Geoghegan was rated as a talent as vast as his girth by so many of his peers: John Sheppard, who prepared so many of Haberfield Fats' famous racing nails, revered him above Brock, his star driver during the A9X years at HDT, and has subsequently reiterated that opinion publically on several occasions. The vivid pictures of "Pete's" escapades painted in print by admirers like Bill Tuckey, whose prose on the subject bordered on Art, brought his talent alive in the minds of many of us too young to have seen the big man in his greatest years.

There are some intimates who believe that his talent was ultimately diluted by the drink, and I believe that his brother faced similar demons, and too many people who remember the sadder times of later years will choose to disregard any greatness he may have otherwise had in their eyes.... but I read a quote this week, which I cannot find now to attribute to its rightful owner; the gist of it was that by and large any mans great deeds will be buried with him, and all that tends to be remembered is the worst of him... and while - as with Brock - while there were misdeeds done and personal demons, they aren't my primary thoughts of the big fella when his name is mentioned...

Brock was no slouch either, and its worth recalling that his final handful of years with the HRT - in the leadup to his first retirement - arguably saw as many Brock "offs" as in all the years prior. His mastery was casual, in the same mould as Geoghegan: an innate knowledge of the quickest way around, irrespective of what he had available to him at the time.

Richards, too, possesses a prodigious natural gift, and seems to live and breathe motor racing in a manner unlike so many of his fellows: it seems ponderous that the same guy who made sure that his transporter prime mover was something he'd be happy to drive across the continent (while he flew his mechanics to and fro) could've been happy enough to virtually all the testing to either his team boss, or his younger team mate. His statistics, carrying through to the present day, would strongly nominate him for the top of the heap.

Moffat, on the other hand, always seemed to have to put more into it than the "naturals"... but I would contend that that's just the way the man went about it: intense, exclusive focus on results, and wins as barely just reward for the work put in. There were many, many drives where the Big M got his dander up, and did mad, courageous and incredible things in the car, that one - Moffat included - would hardly credit in the present day - drives like That Race at Bathurst for Easter in 1972... Australian motor sport would be a much poorer place but for the intensity, the combatativeness and the contributions of Allan George Moffat.

Richard (or Richie as his mother knew him all his life) Johnson - Dick was just a heap shorter to put on the car's sunstopper - worked as hard as anyone to achieve what he did, sometimes too hard. A natural shade-tree mechanic (I recently witnessed him in the Stapylton workshop on a Saturday morning, with Rob Herrod, tweaking the white XR8... a pair of overgrown hoons just tinkering in the shed on a weekend), he'd spend inordinate amounts of time working on his cars, grabbing barely enough sleep to prevent his eyes falling out of his head before the start of the next day's racing... given that he personally built the Group C Clevos that served him so well, he would probably be worthy of a mention in the same circles as revered spanners such as Ian Tate, or Larry Perkins (although LP's ambition took him a lot further abroad)... but his wheelmanship elevated him further. While it often appeared that his pain threshold must've approached that of Allan Grice, and his cars often folded under him, former team mate John Bowe - another whose talents should have him in consideration for a spot near the top - rated Dick as a very smooth and mechanically sympathetic operator...

Oh look, to be perfectly honest, I could rhapsodise all night: Ambrose's Moffat-esque focus and drive, the never-say-die fight that saw hime continually push for a result, letting down tyres to retrieve his Falcon from a wet and boggy infield, or constantly resetting sway bars corner-by-corner, reaching within himself to find precious time when the time to fight or throw it in was on him, who led by example in his team pushing himself for results in such a way that the whiole team invested of themselves...

LP's ferocious attack, which had him rated as peerless across the top of the Big Hill in his day.. which saw him do what he did on a wet Sunday in 1994 there, which saw him fight from the back of field the following year... his savvy and the outhouse rat cunning he utilised in the workshop...

Seton's natural talent, ditto Lowndes, the art of making it look so nonchalant while apparently rewriting laws of physics... Skaife's relentless drive for results...

And then the good guys who never took it all that seriously, who had nothing to prove in the tourers, after they'd been there and done that... Kevin Bartlett... Alan Jones, who when it amused him to do so, could imperiously summon the muse which had driven him to the very pinnacle of motorsport and go out and make all the local heroes look positively ungainly... John Bowe, who embraced the tintops wholeheartedly after an early career in widowmaking F5000's and other openwheelers... even Furious George, who was largely abandoned by big wins, but who probably didn't lay awake at night staring at the ceiling before the big days out... Colin Bond, who'd have a laugh at anything, who'd drive anything and do it well... who according to bloke who'd done it, would've scared a lot of people on the world rally scene... Stormin' Norman and Bob Jane, the Elder Gods...

And then the great ones who, while not the Greatest, deserve to be remembered as better than the run-of-the-mill... blokes like Garry Rogers, John French, David Parsons, Peter Janson... all of whome contributed in such a way to make the fabric of the local racing scene a rich tapestry rather than a canvas bag...

phew, better go and lie down!

[Casper]

Well written, it is a question without answer.

[racer69]

Originally Posted by twisted

In the old days less pro drivers,
less pro teams ie 1 in 10 odds
moe pro teams now say 1 in 20 ?
What do you think?

So we are basing all of this thread on statistics? Thats fine by me if they are the ground rules, and the answer is obvious, all you have to do is look at post #3 in this thread.

Based on statistics David McKay is the greatest Australian touring car driver. Why? Because he won every ATCC race & championship he entered, a 100% record


Having less pro teams in the past compared to today proves nothing, all it means is that in the past if you had a bad day you finished 7-10th, nowdays if you have an off day you might be 15-20th, the actual job of winning a race is just as tough now as it was at Gnoo Blas in 1960.

[deeks6]

Originally Posted by Gaz170

The trouble with stats is they don't tell you the level of competition a person faced, nor the resources a person had available. I would put Brock, Johnson, Moffat, Skaife, Lowndes, Bob Jane, Ian Geohegan, Perkins, Ambrose & Whincup in my top 10, but I couldn't put them in a 1 to 10 order.

Gee, thats almost as close as I could get it too ... I'd probably replace LP with Jimmy Richards but the others are spot on. Once you get to the very top level it is difficult to split them so I'd go along with that too.

For "watchability" it has to be Big Pete and CL ... all those othere guys were a bit clinical most of the time.

[Rob Bailey]

Originally Posted by Henry

How does one truly quantify the Greatest? I think most here agree that statistics don't tell the whole story, and the rest is mainly subjective...

Ian Geoghegan was rated as a talent as vast as his girth by so many of his peers: John Sheppard, who prepared so many of Haberfield Fats' famous racing nails, revered him above Brock, his star driver during the A9X years at HDT, and has subsequently reiterated that opinion publically on several occasions. The vivid pictures of "Pete's" escapades painted in print by admirers like Bill Tuckey, whose prose on the subject bordered on Art, brought his talent alive in the minds of many of us too young to have seen the big man in his greatest years.

There are some intimates who believe that his talent was ultimately diluted by the drink, and I believe that his brother faced similar demons, and too many people who remember the sadder times of later years will choose to disregard any greatness he may have otherwise had in their eyes.... but I read a quote this week, which I cannot find now to attribute to its rightful owner; the gist of it was that by and large any mans great deeds will be buried with him, and all that tends to be remembered is the worst of him... and while - as with Brock - while there were misdeeds done and personal demons, they aren't my primary thoughts of the big fella when his name is mentioned...

Brock was no slouch either, and its worth recalling that his final handful of years with the HRT - in the leadup to his first retirement - arguably saw as many Brock "offs" as in all the years prior. His mastery was casual, in the same mould as Geoghegan: an innate knowledge of the quickest way around, irrespective of what he had available to him at the time.

Richards, too, possesses a prodigious natural gift, and seems to live and breathe motor racing in a manner unlike so many of his fellows: it seems ponderous that the same guy who made sure that his transporter prime mover was something he'd be happy to drive across the continent (while he flew his mechanics to and fro) could've been happy enough to virtually all the testing to either his team boss, or his younger team mate. His statistics, carrying through to the present day, would strongly nominate him for the top of the heap.

Moffat, on the other hand, always seemed to have to put more into it than the "naturals"... but I would contend that that's just the way the man went about it: intense, exclusive focus on results, and wins as barely just reward for the work put in. There were many, many drives where the Big M got his dander up, and did mad, courageous and incredible things in the car, that one - Moffat included - would hardly credit in the present day - drives like That Race at Bathurst for Easter in 1972... Australian motor sport would be a much poorer place but for the intensity, the combatativeness and the contributions of Allan George Moffat.

Richard (or Richie as his mother knew him all his life) Johnson - Dick was just a heap shorter to put on the car's sunstopper - worked as hard as anyone to achieve what he did, sometimes too hard. A natural shade-tree mechanic (I recently witnessed him in the Stapylton workshop on a Saturday morning, with Rob Herrod, tweaking the white XR8... a pair of overgrown hoons just tinkering in the shed on a weekend), he'd spend inordinate amounts of time working on his cars, grabbing barely enough sleep to prevent his eyes falling out of his head before the start of the next day's racing... given that he personally built the Group C Clevos that served him so well, he would probably be worthy of a mention in the same circles as revered spanners such as Ian Tate, or Larry Perkins (although LP's ambition took him a lot further abroad)... but his wheelmanship elevated him further. While it often appeared that his pain threshold must've approached that of Allan Grice, and his cars often folded under him, former team mate John Bowe - another whose talents should have him in consideration for a spot near the top - rated Dick as a very smooth and mechanically sympathetic operator...

Oh look, to be perfectly honest, I could rhapsodise all night: Ambrose's Moffat-esque focus and drive, the never-say-die fight that saw hime continually push for a result, letting down tyres to retrieve his Falcon from a wet and boggy infield, or constantly resetting sway bars corner-by-corner, reaching within himself to find precious time when the time to fight or throw it in was on him, who led by example in his team pushing himself for results in such a way that the whiole team invested of themselves...

LP's ferocious attack, which had him rated as peerless across the top of the Big Hill in his day.. which saw him do what he did on a wet Sunday in 1994 there, which saw him fight from the back of field the following year... his savvy and the outhouse rat cunning he utilised in the workshop...

Seton's natural talent, ditto Lowndes, the art of making it look so nonchalant while apparently rewriting laws of physics... Skaife's relentless drive for results...

And then the good guys who never took it all that seriously, who had nothing to prove in the tourers, after they'd been there and done that... Kevin Bartlett... Alan Jones, who when it amused him to do so, could imperiously summon the muse which had driven him to the very pinnacle of motorsport and go out and make all the local heroes look positively ungainly... John Bowe, who embraced the tintops wholeheartedly after an early career in widowmaking F5000's and other openwheelers... even Furious George, who was largely abandoned by big wins, but who probably didn't lay awake at night staring at the ceiling before the big days out... Colin Bond, who'd have a laugh at anything, who'd drive anything and do it well... who according to bloke who'd done it, would've scared a lot of people on the world rally scene... Stormin' Norman and Bob Jane, the Elder Gods...

And then the great ones who, while not the Greatest, deserve to be remembered as better than the run-of-the-mill... blokes like Garry Rogers, John French, David Parsons, Peter Janson... all of whome contributed in such a way to make the fabric of the local racing scene a rich tapestry rather than a canvas bag...

phew, better go and lie down!

well put togeither.
IMO we have had so many great drivers over the 50 years who have driven Touring cars.
Maybe a easier thread would be "Your favourite touring car driver"

[mctshirt]

Originally Posted by cavvy

Interested in your view on Ambrose relative to Tanders FF victory from a WA base?
Most rank Ambrose, me included.

Ambrose never won Bathurst so he's off my list.

I would have thought open wheeler form prior to the ATCC would not be helpful in a discussion about Australia's greatest touring car driver. Admittedly I know little about Ambrose and Tander's FF racing so maybe it's pertinent?

[mctshirt]

For the record:
Bob Jane - the legend of a Cortina winning Bathurst beating the V8's
Norm Beechy - his Mustangs are still being talked about
Ian Geoghegan - on reputation and legend alone
Kevin Bartlett - as above
Alan Moffat - as above because although I never rated him (at the end of his career) he was already a legend
Jim Richards - the rainmeister (and he could look after a car)
Peter Brock - a fan favourite even through the dark days of the BMW's and Sierra's
Dick Johnson - sheer guts and determination
Larry Perkins - the quiet achiever
Mark Skaife - for a while there he just plain dominated although personally only the day he threw his helmet at Russell Ingall stands out.
Honorable mention:
Glen Seton - never won Bathurst but the baby faced assassin in a Skyline trying to catch up to the field after a puncture at Oran Park was breathtaking stuff
Craig Lowndes and Greg Murphy - haven't finished yet but who can forget them winning Bathurst and grinning like a couple of loons too young to know better. They both know how to throw a car across the top of the mountain.
Maybe The Enforcer gets a mention for weaving at Skaife (above) and calming down long enough to clinically win a championship based on points rewarding consistency.
It remains to be seen if one of the young guns currently making a name for themselves in "The Main Game"
get to be a "Great" although Coulthard, Whincup, Holdsworth, Winterbottom, and Van Gisbergen are putting there hands up.

[Rob Bailey]

Originally Posted by mctshirt

For the record:
Bob Jane - the legend of a Cortina winning Bathurst beating the V8's
Norm Beechy - his Mustangs are still being talked about
Ian Geoghegan - on reputation and legend alone
Kevin Bartlett - as above
Alan Moffat - as above because although I never rated him (at the end of his career) he was already a legend
Jim Richards - the rainmeister (and he could look after a car)
Peter Brock - a fan favourite even through the dark days of the BMW's and Sierra's
Dick Johnson - sheer guts and determination
Larry Perkins - the quiet achiever
Mark Skaife - for a while there he just plain dominated although personally only the day he threw his helmet at Russell Ingall stands out.
Honorable mention:
Glen Seton - never won Bathurst but the baby faced assassin in a Skyline trying to catch up to the field after a puncture at Oran Park was breathtaking stuff
Craig Lowndes and Greg Murphy - haven't finished yet but who can forget them winning Bathurst and grinning like a couple of loons too young to know better. They both know how to throw a car across the top of the mountain.
Maybe The Enforcer gets a mention for weaving at Skaife (above) and calming down long enough to clinically win a championship based on points rewarding consistency.
It remains to be seen if one of the young guns currently making a name for themselves in "The Main Game"
get to be a "Great" although Coulthard, Whincup, Holdsworth, Winterbottom, and Van Gisbergen are putting there hands up.

To many people dismiss Moffat,but in the pre 40 years of age time he was a gun,sure the Boss 302 was a state of the art Trams /Am car or as Norm said "the tea lady at Ford would have one in that car" or similar words.
In the HOs he kicked goals,Capri,Monza and in the 76/77 period he was the Boss.Great results in the Mazda Rx7,but by the time the Sierra was upon us he was past it.

[mctshirt]

Originally Posted by Rob Bailey

To many people dismiss Moffat,but in the pre 40 years of age time he was a gun,sure the Boss 302 was a state of the art Trams /Am car or as Norm said "the tea lady at Ford would have one in that car" or similar words.
In the HOs he kicked goals,Capri,Monza and in the 76/77 period he was the Boss.Great results in the Mazda Rx7,but by the time the Sierra was upon us he was past it.

My point exactly - even though I personally didn't see him at his best he had a solid reputation and was already a legend glorified in any build up footage to big races therefore he gets the nod

[deeks6]

I think it was Brock himself who said about Moffat - that a lot of people don't think he's a naturally talented driver but he sure gave a good impersonation of it.

[Wrighty05]

Originally Posted by deeks6

I think it was Brock himself who said about Moffat - that a lot of people don't think he's a naturally talented driver but he sure gave a good impersonation of it.

Yeah. Brock rated Moffat very highly. He definitely thought Moffat was better than Johnson.

[RotorFan]

Originally Posted by mctshirt

Mark Skaife - for a while there he just plain dominated although personally only the day he threw his helmet at Russell Ingall stands out.

For the record, he threw his helmet to the sector marshal, and only threw his fist at Ingall... Ingall on the other hand threw his whole 1500 kg race car at Skaife...