[Team] … begat Alfa Romeo begat Audi: is their best ever season coming?

[S griffin]

This might be a big step up for Sauber. Going alone with a manufacturer could reap benefits.

[bathurst77]

So from 2026 Sauber will be trading in their alfa for an Audi
Howdy. no more alfalfa!

[bathurst77]

Seems Sauber have to survive a few years on their own before they become Audi.
Maybe audi will start pouring the euro in early as a down payment.
Could be a couple of hungry years to struggle through.

[Moneyseeker]

Could be a repeat of Sauber BMW. There is a reason why most of the F1 teams are based in the UK....

[bjohnsonsmith]

This is a more in depth article from Sky sports on the Sauber/Audi partnership.

https://www.skysports.com/f1/news/12...--poNDXtiUZEJ4

[S griffin]

Originally Posted by Moneyseeker

Could be a repeat of Sauber BMW. There is a reason why most of the F1 teams are based in the UK....

BMW Sauber actually did quite well, but ruined everything by taking the unprecedented step of giving up on a title fight to focus on next year. And we all know how well that turned out

[Tourer]

Just thinking about all this - more change at Sauber. Does this make Sauber the most re-branded, re-partnered team in F1? Would need to compare over a similar timeframe but especially if Sauber's sportscar days was included, it'd have to be "up there" with some of the other more "frequent flyers".

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by Tourer

Just thinking about all this - more change at Sauber. Does this make Sauber the most re-branded, re-partnered team in F1? Would need to compare over a similar timeframe but especially if Sauber's sportscar days was included, it'd have to be "up there" with some of the other more "frequent flyers".

It's an interesting thought - although there have been others who I think have had more change.

houston60f1 blogged about this in 2013 (obviously some changes since then)

One example is the 2005-Jordan, 2006-Midland, 2007-Spyker, 2008-Force India period. Of course followed by 2018-Racing Point Force India, 2019-Racing Point F1 Team, 2021-Aston Martin Aramco Cognizant F1 Team period for the same team.

Another example would be 1998-Tyrell, 1999-BAR, 2006 Honda followed by 2008-Honda, 2009-Brawn, 2010-Mercedes team.

You also have 1981-Toleman, 1986-Benneton, then 2002-Renault before the period of 2011-Lotus Renault GP, 2012-Lotus F1, 2016-Renault Sport F1 followed by 2021 Apine.

And let's not forget 1997-Stewart Grand Prix, 1999 Jaguar Racing, 2005-Red Bull Racing.

In comparison, I think Sauber has been on par with many other teams.

[E.B]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

It's an interesting thought - although there have been others who I think have had more change.

houston60f1 blogged about this in 2013 (obviously some changes since then)

One example is the 2005-Jordan, 2006-Midland, 2007-Spyker, 2008-Force India period. Of course followed by 2018-Racing Point Force India, 2019-Racing Point F1 Team, 2021-Aston Martin Aramco Cognizant F1 Team period for the same team.

Another example would be 1998-Tyrell, 1999-BAR, 2006 Honda followed by 2008-Honda, 2009-Brawn, 2010-Mercedes team.

You also have 1981-Toleman, 1986-Benneton, then 2002-Renault before the period of 2011-Lotus Renault GP, 2012-Lotus F1, 2016-Renault Sport F1 followed by 2021 Apine.

And let's not forget 1997-Stewart Grand Prix, 1999 Jaguar Racing, 2005-Red Bull Racing.

In comparison, I think Sauber has been on par with many other teams.

I guess the unique aspect of Sauber over those teams mentioned is with Sauber they have always retained a shareholding in the team throughout all their different identities.

[chillibowl]

loved me those Red Bull Sauber years!

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by E.B

I guess the unique aspect of Sauber over those teams mentioned is with Sauber they have always retained a shareholding in the team throughout all their different identities.

Is it unique?

Genuine question - did Renault retain shares in the team when it went through the Lotus Renault GP and Lotus F1 iterations?

[FIRE]

Sauber-Mercedes
Sauber-BMW
Sauber-Audi

When will we see a Sauber-Opel on the grid?

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by FIRE

Sauber-Mercedes
Sauber-BMW
Sauber-Audi

When will we see a Sauber-Opel on the grid?

Sauber-Porsche?

[FIRE]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

Sauber-Porsche?

Sauber-Ford Cologne

[E.B]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

Sauber-Porsche?

Probably the wrong thread to post this but I read that Williams Porsche is an almost done deal on a 50/50 shareholding. I think it stems from that man Jack Plooij again.

Its on this link. https://www.gpblog.com/en/news/15021...ent-owner.html

[FIRE]

I am not sure Jack Plooij is a good source...

[P38 in workshop]

Originally Posted by FIRE

Sauber-Mercedes
Sauber-BMW
Sauber-Audi

When will we see a Sauber-Opel on the grid?

With brands like Alfa-Romeo and Maserati in the Stellantis portfolio I would doubt it.

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by E.B

Probably the wrong thread to post this but I read that Williams Porsche is an almost done deal on a 50/50 shareholding. I think it stems from that man Jack Plooij again.

Its on this link. https://www.gpblog.com/en/news/15021...ent-owner.html

Who knows if that is accurate, but if you believe the RBR story, it was the question of who is ultimately in control. These "50/50" deals always seem to be a recipe for conflict and arguments for who is in control. They can't truly be "50/50"

I think RBR wanted a 50+/50- deal with them on the plus side and Porsche wanted to be on the plus side as well. If I was Porsche, there is zero chance I would be on the negative side of any deal with Williams. So this would be an effective buyout of Williams even if they don't purchase 100%

Richard

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

Who knows if that is accurate, but if you believe the RBR story, it was the question of who is ultimately in control. These "50/50" deals always seem to be a recipe for conflict and arguments for who is in control. They can't truly be "50/50"

Richard

Williams has already been filled with VW people like Capito, so perhaps such a deal has more chance of working?

A 50:50 stake with Sir Frank would, of course, be unthinkable!

[peebee2]

Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks

A 50:50 stake with Sir Frank would, of course, be unthinkable!

Especially since he passed and his heirs sold out.

[Adam43]

V8 meant that during Frank’s time sharing the decision making would be unthinkable!

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks

Williams has already been filled with VW people like Capito, so perhaps such a deal has more chance of working?

A 50:50 stake with Sir Frank would, of course, be unthinkable!

Agree on the Frank part.

But when I think of stuff like this, I don't think of who currently fills the positions, but rather the organizational and power structure (power in this case defined by controlling interest). Lets say Dorilton maintains a controlling interest after a deal with Porsche. Just because they have VW leaning staff in management positions today, doesn't mean that might not change in the future. And given how things fell apart for Porsche with the RBR deal over who was in control, I cant imagine them partnering with Williams unless...

1. They want control and get control (majority owner)
2. The have backed away from wanting full control

Richard

[chillibowl]

Having a manu with an ever changing corporate hierarchy would be different to having an individual as a partner tho….at the onset of their partnership, how much of the team did Patrick Head have?

assuming it was never 50/50 but that aside, surely Frank was willing to entertain different types of ownership. The IPO for example was acceptable provided he controlled the majority of board seats?

With the Sauber BMW partnership, PS had given up board and team control to BMW if memory serves?

[FIRE]

Of course Sauber and Williams are in a different (financial) position than RBR.

[Moneyseeker]

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

Agree on the Frank part.



But when I think of stuff like this, I don't think of who currently fills the positions, but rather the organizational and power structure (power in this case defined by controlling interest). Lets say Dorilton maintains a controlling interest after a deal with Porsche. Just because they have VW leaning staff in management positions today, doesn't mean that might not change in the future. And given how things fell apart for Porsche with the RBR deal over who was in control, I cant imagine them partnering with Williams unless...



1. They want control and get control (majority owner)

2. The have backed away from wanting full control



Richard

What a great investment by Dorlilin though, they got Williams at a fire sale price just as the value of teams shot up. If the Porsche deal goes through, I bet they double their initial investment and will still own 50% of the team.

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