Could lap times be maintained with half the downforce?

[phoenix]

Originally Posted by Marbot

Most of the time will be lost in the corners, where you can't use the power. You will therefore need more power on any straight to make up the deficit.

And on very few circuits are the straights a significant part of the total course length...

[phoenix]

Originally Posted by Flavio Galtieri

Downforce is king.....it's just physics. I thought it would be easier but now I'm sure it can't be done.

I agree 100% with you. If this was Xfactor and I was the Irish judge, I would agree 1000% with you

[wnut]

Originally Posted by phoenix

Actually it increases at the rate of 0.5 * v^2 ... As does downforce. It is still an exponentially increasing value.

But the power required to overcome the aerodynamic drag is given by:
Hence note that the power needed to push an object through a fluid increases as the cube of the velocity.

At the end of the day brute force and maximum downforce are king, but the challenge was to try and maintain the lap time with half the down force.

The F1 Lap record for Silverstone is 1:30 odd and the F3 lap record is 1:53. So the question I guess would be what would a 50 kg underweight F3 (F3 min weight 550Kg) with 650 bhp instead of 200 bhp run?
Also better gearbox, tyres and brakes than the F3s.

What do you reckon that would get down to?

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by phoenix

And on very few circuits are the straights a significant part of the total course length...

Correct. We no longer have circuits where you can say, for example, that the Ferrari engine or the Renault engine would make the difference.

Originally Posted by wnut

What do you reckon that would get down to?

A very light, and very small, F3 car with probably less downforce than normal and with 650bhp........hmmmmm

Over one lap, it may be possible. Over an entire race distance that car is going to have to pit for fuel and tyres quite often, I would say.

[Flavio Galtieri]

Originally Posted by wnut

The F1 Lap record for Silverstone is 1:30 odd and the F3 lap record is 1:53. So the question I guess would be what would a 50 kg underweight F3 (F3 min weight 550Kg) with 650 bhp instead of 200 bhp run?
Also better gearbox, tyres and brakes than the F3s.

What do you reckon that would get down to?

Interesting, but the problem there is you've effectively designed a new car! So there is no data available for a simple desktop calculation.

[wolfhound]

Originally Posted by Flavio Galtieri

Interesting, but the problem there is you've effectively designed a new car! So there is no data available for a simple desktop calculation.

I suspect most of the F1 boffins would have it worked out in under an hour its the fine detail that would be more time consuming.

The biggest problem would be those black round things found at each corner, to get them to tolerate low downforce.

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by wolfhound

The biggest problem would be those black round things found at each corner, to get them to tolerate low downforce.

Particularly the horrendous wheelspin! But maybe, 4 wheel drive; traction control; ABS brakes; refueling, etc. I'm not even sure all of that would be enough. Probably not.

[S14]

Originally Posted by Marbot

Particularly the horrendous wheelspin! But maybe, 4 wheel drive; traction control; ABS brakes; refueling, etc. I'm not even sure all of that would be enough. Probably not.

Maybe if you can get a tyre that uses the van der Waals force to be orders of magnitude more grippy, without compromising durability, rather than four wheel drive and such. Though I wonder what unintended consequences there would be to making up half the aero grip with mechanical grip (i.e. with super grippy tyres).

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by S14

Though I wonder what unintended consequences there would be to making up half the aero grip with mechanical grip (i.e. with super grippy tyres).

Grippy tyres usually come with a tyre war, but usually at the expense of not knowing how close to the edge an individual tyre manufacturer is pushing it (Indy 2005).

It all depends on too many variables for even the boffins in F1 to be bothered with, I think. They most certainly don't want to be putting themselves out of a job!

[miatanut]

In a sense, I think the initial question of the thread is the wrong question. I read into it that it is important to maintain lap times. If you halved the downforce and kept power where it is, the drivers would be at part throttle more of the time, which would let the better drivers distinguish themselves. Fans would appreciate that, wouldn't they?

The rear ends would step out more when a driver was under pressure, which would show they were really pushing and be more dramatic. Braking distances would get longer, allowing out-braking duels to come back.

Some fans would stare at their stopwatches and grumble, but most would ask "Why didn't they do this sooner?"

I think the 2014 regulations will have some of that effect.

[Flavio Galtieri]

Originally Posted by miatanut

I think the 2014 regulations will have some of that effect.

Whilst, as an old-timer myself I agree with your sentiments, I have a sneaking suspicion that the cars in 2014 will be just as quick, if not a tad faster.....

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by miatanut

Some fans would stare at their stopwatches and grumble, but most would ask "Why didn't they do this sooner?"

You would also have to ask yourself if it were still the ultimate open wheel series.

Originally Posted by miatanut

I think the 2014 regulations will have some of that effect.

Speaking of which (recently updated): http://www.fia.com/sites/default/fil...ONS-111212.pdf

It all depends how clever they have been as to how much tail sliding action there will be. Don't be too surprised if some rather hurried 'stop-gap' regulations are put into force.

[wnut]

This seems a bit rich!

2.5 New systems or technologies :
Any new system, procedure or technology not specifically covered by these regulations, but
which is deemed permissible by the FIA Formula One Technical Department, will only be
admitted until the end of the Championship during which it is introduced. Following this the
Formula One Commission will be asked to review the technology concerned and, if they feel it
adds no value to Formula One in general, it will be specifically prohibited.
Any team whose technology is prohibited in this way will then be required to publish full
technical details of the relevant system or procedure

[fourWheelDrift]

Originally Posted by wnut

This seems a bit rich!

2.5 New systems or technologies :
Any new system, procedure or technology not specifically covered by these regulations, but
which is deemed permissible by the FIA Formula One Technical Department, will only be
admitted until the end of the Championship during which it is introduced. Following this the
Formula One Commission will be asked to review the technology concerned and, if they feel it
adds no value to Formula One in general, it will be specifically prohibited.
Any team whose technology is prohibited in this way will then be required to publish full
technical details of the relevant system or procedure

Until the last sentence I'd say it's how things have operated for some years but I fail to see why the teams should be forced to give up any remaining secrets just because the FAI decide to ban something.

[wolfhound]

That seems to mean a new idea will have to work pretty well first time at the start of a season for a team to be able to take advantage of it.

What is a new system or technology?
Could it be a hole in the bodywork that allows air to go in a certain direction or a different shaped exhaust outlet that will blow in a certain way?

This rule could have alot of significance in 2014 with all the new energy recovery systems etc.

[miatanut]

Originally Posted by Marbot

You would also have to ask yourself if it were still the ultimate open wheel series.

Are the cars now the fastest humanly possible?

No, they're not, and haven't been for at least 30 years. They're slowed in the interest of safety. Auto racing works under a sort of honor system where F1 gets to be fastest.

That or Bernie would give anyone who tried to have a faster series a miserable time!

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by miatanut

Are the cars now the fastest humanly possible?

No, they're not, and haven't been for at least 30 years.

The fastest F1 cars were probably the 2004 F1 cars. But no, the cars are not the fastest cars humanly possible. It may be possible, although, perhaps not 'humanly' possible, to go a whole lot faster if the goal of that particular pursuit is to find the driver who can deal with G-forces better than any other driver. Would that be the mark of the best driver? His/Her ability to withstand G-forces better than any other driver? Do we need robot drivers?

But we digress.

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by wnut

This seems a bit rich!

2.5 New systems or technologies :
Any new system, procedure or technology not specifically covered by these regulations, but
which is deemed permissible by the FIA Formula One Technical Department, will only be
admitted until the end of the Championship during which it is introduced. Following this the
Formula One Commission will be asked to review the technology concerned and, if they feel it
adds no value to Formula One in general, it will be specifically prohibited.
Any team whose technology is prohibited in this way will then be required to publish full
technical details of the relevant system or procedure

It seems to be the way in which the FIA can either gain knowledge in particular systems for use on road cars, or, more likely, the FIAs means of prohibiting teams from turning up to races with something that they would rather be better off keeping to themselves.

[Oldtony]

Is there such a thing as a comprehensive and detailed list of technologies that are specifically banned from F1?
Seems to me it would be a list offering some great ideas for the future of personal transportation efficiency and safety.
But then I'm a cynic!

[wnut]

Originally Posted by Marbot

It seems to be the way in which the FIA can either gain knowledge in particular systems for use on road cars, or, more likely, the FIAs means of prohibiting teams from turning up to races with something that they would rather be better off keeping to themselves.

I hadn't thought of that as a deterant! But I think you are right, so much for encouraging the advance of technology.

Expect something written in Fasi by the cleaner and translated into English with Google translate!

Guess Adrian's way is the best, you find it and tell us what it does and you may be able to ban it when you understand it! Until then we'll run it!

[wnut]

Originally Posted by Oldtony

Is there such a thing as a comprehensive and detailed list of technologies that are specifically banned from F1?
Seems to me it would be a list offering some great ideas for the future of personal transportation efficiency and safety.
But then I'm a cynic!

I'd agree!

I see Mazda's road cars are now running capacitors in their road KERS, the very technology which our road relevant super series has banned!

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by wnut

I see Mazda's road cars are now running capacitors in their road KERS, the very technology which our road relevant super series has banned!

Mazda currently exchanges technology with Ford, and they exchange technology with.........

The reason for F1s 'upgrade' is not to particularly develop those technologies, but to make F1 a suitable market place for sponsorship.

[wnut]

Originally Posted by Marbot

Mazda currently exchanges technology with Ford, and they exchange technology with.........

The reason for F1s 'upgrade' is not to particularly develop those technologies, but to make F1 a suitable market place for sponsorship.

Good point Marbot!

But then they close the series off to the development of the most advanced tech systems and stick with batteries?

I am sure that the manufacturers of the capacitor technology would be tempted to showcase their product in F1, it is the way of the future. The KERS regs should be far more open and less prescriptive than they are at present.

F1 spec series bringing up the rear again with stone age technology, pretty frustrating!

[luke g28]

Originally Posted by fourWheelDrift

I think this is a gross over simplification, of course there is some truth in this but there are some important points this argument glosses over:

1. A car that uses venturi tunnels rather than wings makes a different and smaller wake but certainly not any where near "0".

2. The idea that F1's current problem is entirely about the wake left by the leading car is again an over simplification, the other reason the effect is much more pronounced than it used to be is that the following car is more sensitive than ever to the wake. This is in part because of the extreme refinement of the air flow over the car and in part because of the way the "end plates" of the front wing are used to direct the flow around the front tyres and over the rest of the car, something which is severely effected by the wake.

Agreed my post is/was a massive over simplification, I was on my phone

Anyway see this short video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OAo0mbCFDAw

From when the delta wing was an Indy concept, they designed the cars to be able to follow each other closely so the wake effect was very seriously considered.

Happy xmas everyone.

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by wnut

Good point Marbot!

But then they close the series off to the development of the most advanced tech systems and stick with batteries?

Was F1 ever using the most advanced systems available at any time in the past?

Originally Posted by wnut

I am sure that the manufacturers of the capacitor technology would be tempted to showcase their product in F1, it is the way of the future.

The thing being that capacitors are just one possible future. One of my cars has a capacitor on it for use with its brilliant stop/start system (Peugeot 3008 e-hdi). I don't think that it's particularly something that F1 needs at the moment.

Originally Posted by wnut

The KERS regs should be far more open and less prescriptive than they are at present.

In 2014 they will be. They have to be! They will be up to ten times more powerful than current (sorry) systems.

Originally Posted by wnut

F1 spec series bringing up the rear again with stone age technology, pretty frustrating!

As said before. They were always following technologies, but never leading.