Ferrari P1 Rumours

[TF110]

Originally Posted by jimclark

No problem. 'Sorry about your not being able to comprehend.

First; I suggest you check the dictionary in regard to the definition of "rumour".

Many things start out as rumours and are just that. Many other things are not rumours and actually begin as facts, then are leaked out as "rumours"....

Got it?

Do you feel better now? In irony you tell me to check a dictionary but spell "rumour" in the old english. In America its actually spelled "rumor".

Ferrari was asked about these rumors btw and have tried to escape the question. So they're not denying these stories but trying to manuever themselves around it. That's why these persist.

[MitchZ06]

The irony of telling someone how to spell it the 'American' way on an international forum.

[TF110]

Originally Posted by MitchZ06

The irony of telling someone how to spell it the 'American' way on an international forum.

A guy with an AMERICAN flag under his avatar tells another American to read a dictionary about "rumour" as if I'm ignorant to what it entails. I pointed out the difference in spelling to highlight the humor (or is it humour) he thought i missed.

Sorry kid, I didn't tell him how to spell it.

[MitchZ06]

Ah you're such an eloquent genius Seth.

[Maelochs]

Actually ther posdeterr might have been being polite, or simply trying to lessen confusion, by using the spelling of "rumour" in the original post.

But look, if we are pickling as American versus British spelling ... can we accept that That represents too deep a dive into pettiness?

Two points on which I seek general agreement: We'd all love to see Ferrari in LMP1, and we are getting a little too petty if we are arguing over different, correct spellings. How about it?

[CyberMotor]

Originally Posted by Maelochs

... but we all hope Ferrari builds a P1 anyway. Can we at least agree on that?

I agree! Is this a first for this thread?

[dxk1]

Didn't George Bernard Shaw say that "England and America are two countries separated by a common language." Sometimes the old timers have it in a nutshell.

DK

[Dario911]

Ferrari is not in the right position to come back in Le Mans, now.
Formula 1 is going wrong, and they would not risk to enter in Le Mans, waiting some years before to win (if it will happens) the challenge against Porsche (wich remains Ferrari's nemesis), Audi, Toyota, Nissan, etc.
Two years before 2015 are not enough to come back in a class they are far from 50 years...

[TF110]

Originally Posted by MitchZ06

Ah you're such an eloquent genius Seth.

Why do you keep calling me that? You don't know my name, and it should stay that way

Originally Posted by Maelochs

Actually ther posdeterr might have been being polite, or simply trying to lessen confusion, by using the spelling of "rumour" in the original post.

But look, if we are pickling as American versus British spelling ... can we accept that That represents too deep a dive into pettiness?

Two points on which I seek general agreement: We'd all love to see Ferrari in LMP1, and we are getting a little too petty if we are arguing over different, correct spellings. How about it?

I was making a funny. Not trying to argue over the spelling of a word. The guy thought I had no humor but raged at me for saying "I don't get your post" (which was a joke)

[jimclark]

Aiye yi yi yi... I would love to see a Ferrari effort.

But where from is the idea there ther will be one?

I'm outa the loop, admittedly, so maybe I am missing it. But what is the basis that there will be a Ferrrari effort.

Rumours (or rumors..does it matter??) don't turn me on.

edit: And Mae, how are you? Was that maalox or what???

[David Land]

Quite an interesting tweet from David Brabham:

David Brabham ‏@brabsracer 3h Morning all, off to Italy for the day for a meeting.

[Thaw Daggerslash]

Originally Posted by David Land

Quite an interesting tweet from David Brabham:

Seriously?

That's the sort of logic the F1 media had a few weeks ago, when they were speculating about Lewis going to Ferrari because his dad was spotted talking to Stefano in Maranello...

[avvelenamento]

ahahaha brabham goes to italy and is a ferrari lmp1 rumor? This obsession confirms that ferrari p1 question need be to analyzed in a less endurance/sportscars contest and in a more financial question. I don't like F1, but can't be denied that each automotive manufacturer's greatest ambition is to get inside the circus, possibly with a competitive car. Nothing else but F1 gives brand exposure, sponsorships and pay-TV rights money. Reading porsche statements of recent years, germans were very interested to enter in F1, even just as 2014 spec engine supplier, but someone inside porsche AG believed that step inside F1 could be too much risky watching honda, bmw, toyota and first 3 mercedes seasons fails... tons of $ wasted to obtain..... nothing. They wisely switched for an lmp1 program because they think to have a better know how and concrete chances of victory. Now let's talk about ferrari. Ferrari doesn't need to step inside le mans because is already the king of f1 playground. Ferrari even if doesn't win a championship since 2008 and unable to develope a car competitive like the redbull, with mclaren and lotus (and williams a lot of years ago) is an historic top team inside the circus, being also the most political influential manufacture inside FIA, FOTA and between teams, each year gain a lot of money from main sponsors (santander and marlboro) and not less the possibility to promote the brand in each corner of the world. Simply can't ask nothing more from motorsport and le mans/WEC can't ensure all these benefits. To compete at le mans is just a way to spend not less than other 80 mln of € per year to obtain nothing comparable to F1. Ferrari CEO is made by lawyers and finance experts who look for money only and don't have any motorsport passion, they simply don't care of sportscars palmares.
Anyway if ferrari will join, ACO will get a great manufacturer but will get also a lunatic montezemolo and his unfair and political pressure behaviour that little by little will break the armony between ACO and the other manufacturers. Things should remain as are now: toyota, porsche, audi in LMP1, manufacturers already involved in f1 should remain in f1.

[Ephaeton]

Originally Posted by ss_collins

The 2014 F1 engines pretty much do have to run for 24 hours, as they cannot be changed - the teams in 2015 will only have 4 per season if memory serves, thats more that 24 hours per engine.

Remi Taffin: "Can't use F1 engine for Le Mans" (german)

It does depend, says Taffin, on whether you're only riding 300km a piece or 24h long: "Our engines do survive 5000 km. But they won't survive this in one go, as a 24h race has quite a different rhythm [than a F1 race]. You can't compare those two". Even though this might've been possible back in the old days, Taffin says nowadays this cannot be done: "For sure you can do both today [as an engine supplier] but surely no longer with the same engine". It is not practical "You won't win in Montreal and run Le Mans with the same engine. Surely not"

[avvelenamento]

again, less tech and give a more financial point of view: mercedes, renault, ferrari and honda in 2015 will be the engine suppliers of 2014 f1 spec turbo-ers units. Mercedes, renault and ferrari are not interested to step inside WEC, honda will use the modified indy engine.
To modify an f1 engine for endurance races, ferrari/mercedes/honda/renault will have to spend a lot of money in R&D, and if very likely they won't step inside, who will buy these engines? lmp1 private teams? please come back to reality... renault will ask more than 20 mln of € per season to supply their engines to f1 teams, wich private endurance team can spend even only the half just for the engine's contract?

[GTfour]

Originally Posted by avvelenamento

again, less tech and give a more financial point of view: mercedes, renault, ferrari and honda in 2015 will be the engine suppliers of 2014 f1 spec turbo-ers units. Mercedes, renault and ferrari are not interested to step inside WEC, honda will use the modified indy engine.
To modify an f1 engine for endurance races, ferrari/mercedes/honda/renault will have to spend a lot of money in R&D, and if very likely they won't step inside, who will buy these engines? lmp1 private teams? please come back to reality... renault will ask more than 20 mln of € per season to supply their engines to f1 teams, wich private endurance team can spend even only the half just for the engine's contract?

All is not said about that. You're presuming that F1'll be happy with their new engines. It might just as well go the other way as in a dwindling popularity of F1 because of these engines. Let's face it, these new turbo engines will by far not be as spectacular as the F1 engines of the famed 'turbo era'.
The engines themselves'll produce some 500bhp, hardly a staggering number so don't expect loud and flamespitting spectacle generators.

This could then mean, if this F1 engine formula will cause fewer spectators/F1 fans, that the engine regs could be changed around before we know it, leaving stacks of redundant engines up for grabs for endurance racing.

[avvelenamento]

the whole automotive market is moving toward hybrid-downsizing, F1 simply could not escape to the future. Anyway, my opinion was not about if new turbo engines will be successfull or not, it was about the unrealistic possibility to see derivated f1 turbo engines in endurance races in private hands if first the f1 engine manufacturer won't step inside (very unlikely).

Coming back to f1 engine, first it was a L4 turbo to introduce in 2013, ferrari lobbied and obtained the V6 delayed to 2014. Mercedes and Renault somehow agreed, so i can't expect a new engine rule breakout before 5 years at least.

[trickyd]

Two things make me think this is a massive load of rollocks. Firstly, Ferrari pulled out of Prototype Sports Car racing as a works team before the start of the 1974 season because Luca de Montezemelo, and Nikki Lauda, decided that you couldn't run a successful F1 team and a Sports Car effort at the same time and pooled all of the Scuderia's resources in F1. Luca de Montezemelo is still in charge of these things, and I doubt anything that has happened in the last 39 and a half years will have changed his mind. Secondly, second in importance to Luca at Ferrari is Fernando Alonso, single-mindedly held bent on winning a 3rd World Championship and likely to throw the mother of all hissy fits if it looks like Ferrari are about to do anything that would divert even the slightest bit of their attention away from him.

Having said all that, Ferrari theoretically have a lot going for them in terms of building a winning LMP1 car. Rory Byrne, who designed their dominant F1 cars of the Schumacher era still works for them he just designed the LaFerrari and is probably twiddling his thumbs looking for something to do. They have the facilities, they have an unparalleled ability to attract sponsors, a partnership with Shell fuels, they have or will have a WEC rule eligible engine and a hybrid system, their newest supercar is hybrid, they have a lot of talented drivers contracted to them frustrated driving GT cars (probably), they have AF Corse to run the cars and maybe even Dallara to build it for them. So?

In all honesty if something along these lines does occur I'd say it would be either a Maserati, an Alfa Romeo or a private car funded and run by a very rich eccentric.

[vincegail]

Originally Posted by trickyd

In all honesty if something along these lines does occur I'd say it would be either a Maserati, an Alfa Romeo or a private car funded and run by a very rich eccentric.

In the last case it will be named a Glickenhaus, not a Ferrari.

Both of your points hold truth in my eyes. Ferrari is indeed desperate to win the F1 championship with Alonso driving. But they also have a streetcar division, which is not compromising their F1 efforts. I think that Ferrari is more than capable of developing a LMP1 car if they wish to do so, without jeopardising the F1 result.

I hope Ferrari stays away from Le Mans, apart from their GT programme. I fear they will pull the blanket too much to their side of the bed, and that the ACO will let them do that, just like the FIA does.

[avvelenamento]

I think that is more alonso desperate to win against vettel than ferrari win with alonso. Even if not like F1, WEC gives great chances of exposure for a brand. A good international show for FIAT brands like maserati, lancia and alfa romeo. Three brands that need an international championship.

[Pandamasque]

Originally Posted by avvelenamento

the whole automotive market is moving toward hybrid-downsizing, F1 simply could not escape to the future.

But that happens to get around the fuel economy/emissions tests that have VERY little to do with real life driving on the road. You can get fantastic official economy and emissions rating by coasting around with that tiny turbo engine, as long as the turbo doesn't kick in. But drive it hard, you may be better off with a big lazy pushrod V8. This whole downsizing trend only makes sense for cars that are driven at 1/10 most of the time. Even some actual road car engineers admit it to road car journos, it's all to get good official numbers (at the expense of weight, complexity and thus potential reliability problems).

How is that relevant to racing?

[jimclark]

Originally Posted by Pandamasque

But that happens to get around the fuel economy/emissions tests that have VERY little to do with real life driving on the road. You can get fantastic official economy and emissions rating by coasting around with that tiny turbo engine, as long as the turbo doesn't kick in. But drive it hard, you may be better off with a big lazy pushrod V8. This whole downsizing trend only makes sense for cars that are driven at 1/10 most of the time. Even some actual road car engineers admit it to road car journos, it's all to get good official numbers (at the expense of weight, complexity and thus potential reliability problems).

How is that relevant to racing?

Exackly...

[Maelochs]

How is what relevant to racing? Not eh question.

The question for the manufacturers is, how is Racing relevant to marketing road cars?

Sure the fuel economy of the racing engine has nothing to do with fuel economy for road cars.

But ... manufacturers want Everything to look green, and want to be able to tout improved fuel economy, to keep up with the current market mindset.

It has nothing to do with actual fuel economy---no manufacturer is going to brag about getting nearly 3.5 mpg ... but nowadays Spin and Message trump fact and reality, so ...

[jimclark]

Originally Posted by Maelochs

How is what relevant to racing? Not eh question.

The question for the manufacturers is, how is Racing relevant to marketing road cars?

Sure the fuel economy of the racing engine has nothing to do with fuel economy for road cars.

But ... manufacturers want Everything to look green, and want to be able to tout improved fuel economy, to keep up with the current market mindset.

It has nothing to do with actual fuel economy---no manufacturer is going to brag about getting nearly 3.5 mpg ... but nowadays Spin and Message trump fact and reality, so ...

It's all bs...agreed. I say allow turbines again...

[Dario911]

Ferrari has lost ground in comparison with Red Bull, Mercedes and Lotus in the last years. Mercedes and Lotus are rising up, race by race, while Red Bull is always the top of the class, by far.
Ferrari has done some uncompetitive cars in the last years, and has shown to be unable to develope the cars during the season, on the contrary of its opponents. F138 was born well, but now has slipped in the middle of the grid, and Ferrari crew don't now how and what to do to gain competitivity. In a so critical situation I don't think they may be really attracted by WEC and Le Mans. Not because they are not interested in this class, but because they could never accept a new challenge before to be on top in their main class.
WEC needs a lot of economical and technical resources, so they could never be competitive in both classes. Ferrari would never leave Formula 1, but at the same time, they would never be of the match in Le Mans, risking to fail in a such critical stuation for the whole team. Would be a bad advertising for Ferrari to be uncompetitive against Red Bull & co. in formula 1, as welle as against Audi & co. in Le Mans/WEC.
I think they would be more focused on Formula 1, to get back on top, instead to risk on two different (and so challenging) fronts.