Castroneves or Tracy?

[paul-collins]

Your timing seems about correct to me. Now if only they could clarify the dashboard issue...

Castroneves is widely quoted as saying he let up because the light on his dash came on indicating yellow flag, and that Tracy passed at that time. (I wonder if this is IRL's evidence?)

Earlier quotes about not being able to see clearly seem to have disappeared from the web.

Nowhere are there quotes suggesting what I remember him saying, that the light indicated he was out of gas. I'm going to check my tape tonight to see if I'm making this up.

[zealot]

macdaddy
You HAVE to see the RPM2Night video! They slowed the video down frame by frame, and the same frame where the yellow light is first visible, you can clearly see Tracy is ahead of Castroneves.

Personally, I think the rule is a stupid one because you end up in situations like this one. The IRLshould either have the cars race to the start-finish line or go back to the standing of the previous green-flag lap.

However, those aren't the rules. Following the letter of the rules (and when the prize is $1.5 million, untold millions of endorsement dollors, and having your name etched on the Four Corners trophy, I think you HAVE to follow the rules) Paul Tracy IS the 2002 Indy 500 winner.

[macdaddy]

Agreed. I HAVE to see this video. I'll keep surfing... But I question "the same frame where the yellow light is first visible...". Just because the light was not visible in the frames beforehand doesn't necessarily mean that the light was green. If anybody finds a link to this vid, please post.

[djb]

You know,as much as I wish Tracy would have won, I have to agree with the 4 sec thing, the lights must have been on before the pass. (I write that partly knowing that the political side of this is probably never going to allow a change of results)
Do mention a link to the video if any one sees it though.

This is like the last US presidential election isn't it?

[Jordi]

even if Tracy is finally appointed the winner, the yellow came very fast at the end, but it took a crash involving Tony Kanaan to have the IRL having a yellow for the blown engine of Junqueira, who was clearly laying oil all over the track.

So fast when the IRL is upfront, so slow when one CART driver is laying oil in front of another CART driver.

[mac]

Originally posted by djb
I have to agree with the 4 sec thing, the lights must have been on before the pass.

This is just presumption and guesswork. I would have said that surely the yellows must have been out immediately when Junqueira was pumping out oil over the track, but it didn't come out til Kanaan was in the wall. This presumption is not conclusive.

[Glen Hartigan]

Originally posted by zealot
No, point #3 is NOT demonstrable. The only thing that matters is when the yellow light appeared ON THE TRACK. The time of the accident, the scoring line, when officials called for the yellow, the light on the dashboard, all mean NOTHING. The yellow light is the same as the yellow flag, it is the only thing that matters.

The IRL rulebook says that positions are cemented when the yellow appears on the track - not when the accident occurs, not on the last green lap, not at the scoring line, and certainly not when race officials call for the yellow. The following is word for word from the 2000 rulebook.

"7.14 Yellow Flag (Caution) - The yellow caution period starts with the display of the yellow flag and/or yellow lights and ends with the display of the green flag and/or green lights. Racing ceases immediately upon display of the yellow flag and/or yellow light."

I don't care when Castroneves quit racing, the rules says "Racing ceases immediately upon display of the yellow flag and/or yellow light." It doesn't mention the time of the accident or when lights appear on the drivers' dashboard.

I totally agree.Why wont barnhart say who was ahead when the yellow came out???Sounds like hes dodging that one.

[Airhead]

This thread poses a question -

The answer to which is simple.

Paul "the puppeteer" Tracey

[macdaddy]

I believe I've found the video footage that we were talking about.

http://hawkmail.monmouth.edu/~s0444786/video2.mpg

Unfortunately, I find it inconclusive. It shows Paul's car possibly a few inches ahead, and THEN shows the yellow light. It fails to show that the light was green before, during or after the pass. Because of the "four-second-thing", I tend to think that the yellow light must have been on before the camera focused in on it. And yes, "this is just presumption and guesswork" on my part.

[paul-collins]

Being admittedly biased, I find it conclusive. This is the timing from the clip, as I see it (times are not realtime, as this is slo-mo):

12 seconds - Tracy passes Helio
18 seconds - first instance of light coming on

At 2x zoom, you can focus on the block where the light shows up pretty well (watch it 4 or 5 times to pick up the visual cues). It's not a slowly flashing light, so it should have been visible if it was on in the lead up to the 18 second mark, if only for a bit.

Anyway, it's pretty tight. But I'm going to get a poster and mark it "Indy 500 winner 2002" and get Paul to sign it this July...

Nice find, btw.

[zealot]

The camera never focused on the light, they just zoomed in the picture when the yellow light came on. It may have been a malfunction, but the light did not come on until well after the accident. I think the video is pretty conclusive, Paul Tracey is the 2002 Indy 500 champ.

[zealot]

I've learned info on a different forum - I can't verify though. According to a newspaper article (an Indianapolis paper) the lights on the track and in-car are controlled by humans and are independant of each other. That may be the reason for the delay in the track light coming on.

Even if it was a mistake, though, the letter of the law still says since Tracey led when the yellow came on, he is the winner.

[djb]

Mac, you're absolutely right re: the Junqueira oil situation. (remember, I would love to see the win get changed)

Let's face it, the people in charge of this decision must have seen this footage and deemed it too close to call.

After writing those words, I just watched it for a third time, and it does in fact show the light coming on when Tracy was in front. Now the fun part is going to be if there is any way that this can be used in an appeal process. Before seeing this, I really didn't feel that I could have a proper opinion, but it's different now.

ps, thanks father of mac for the clip, and when was this on ESPN? and I also am curious to what the end of the sentence was by the talking head re: "after a lengthy IRL news conference"

[Jordi]

Paul's ahead, no doubt. Plus it's not "the light is on..." the light turns on THEN, when the guy says yellow shade and all that.

[SevenGrain]

I don't think that Green will even appeal, he hasn't filed yet and it doesn't look as if an appeal will do any good.

I sure would like to see the "indisputable" evidence that the IRl supposedly has.

[macdaddy]

Pretty much a moot point now, I guess. Although Green has until Friday to appeal his protest. Surely will be talked about for generations to come. It's a shame really, one way or the other. A driver who has luck on his side and ends up with a hard-fought yet tarnished victory, or another driver whose greatest achievement was denied when it was rightfully his.

They awarded two Rookie-of-the-Year awards, too bad they couldn't put two faces on the BorgWarner.

[Jordi]

only one, Helio's in there already...

[Speedworx]

Tracy will get a chance next year with Honda.

[macdaddy]

But as for this year...

[Glen Hartigan]

BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Jordi]

Right now I prefer to look at how Kanaan and Junqueira looked as dominant as Scheckter... before the three were eliminated