Has the axe fallen in the right places?

[kipper]

Originally Posted by Thundersports

I've had the misfortune to see "T-cars!" twice now and I have to say what a load of slow, boring and small gridded crap I have ever seen, it is even more boring than Mr Ego Hines Zip Formula! The one and only reason for BTCC not getting a warning is Mr Gow is running it...........corrupt? Answers here!

Certain championships deemed to be of a high stature, offer something different or have a limited base to attract competitors. I believe these are the reasons why the BTCC and T Cars escape attention from the MSA commitee, although I'd argue that the latter example fits none of these given the other comparable series. That said I'd also imagine that regional championships should also be given more leniency under these criteria which would appear not to be the case given the Scottish Mini scenario (although with more rounds out of Scotland than in it - can it really be considered regional in the truest sense of the word?).

With regard to the commitee being corrupt on account of Alan Gow being in charge of the MSA, whilst it is true that the BTCC has escaped any censure for last year (average grids approximately 14), the BTCC did not face penalties in the years preceeding Alan Gow's MSA appointment despite having equally poor grids, so at least there is some consistency in the decision making process.

[Peter Mallett]

I believe the BTCC does need to change. It has gone too far towards manufacturers thereby limiting the available teams.

[Tim Wilkinson]

Originally Posted by Thundersports

I've had the misfortune to see "T-cars!" twice now and I have to say what a load of slow, boring and small gridded crap I have ever seen, it is even more boring than Mr Ego Hines Zip Formula! The one and only reason for BTCC not getting a warning is Mr Gow is running it...........corrupt? Answers here!

In the last few years T-Cars was pretty much the only link into long-circuit motorsport for anyone below 16 (although you needed a lot of pocket money to go out and play), so I think it deserved to escape censure. Now Sax Max is on the scene I would hope to see T-Car and Ginetta Junior numbers come under closer scrutiny, as there is obviously another option - and one a lot closer to saloon cars, too!

Yes, the Saxos appeal to the kids, but also they're plentiful, easy to build and run, and parts are cheap. There was a gap there, and the 750mc have filled it very nicely.

Peter - there's really only two (three or 4 if you count TD and Team RAC) manufacturer teams in BTCC, amongst a grid of 20 (give or take); and those other teams are there or thereabouts - it seems much better set-up than in the last days of super-touring.

[Ian Sowman]

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

I believe the BTCC does need to change. It has gone too far towards manufacturers thereby limiting the available teams.

But we're back to 24 cars and more Indy teams now - so isn't it moving in the right direction?

[acorn]

Originally Posted by Ian Sowman

But we're back to 24 cars and more Indy teams now - so isn't it moving in the right direction?

what worries me about that is that only 3 teams field nearly half the grid.

regarding the scottish legends, they should be just that SCOTTISH and not venture south. some drivers like staying local(smaller budget requirement and less time away required). if they(the legends drivers) want to travel then join the nationals. if you go slightly further up the ladder should the british f3/gt go abroad and would their fields be bigger if they stayed on the island? want to use the europen gp tracks, go fia gt or f3 euroseries.

why the vsr/supersilhouettes numbers are low must be infuriating the brscc who when promoting thundersundays reckoned there would be numbers equalling the pickups ie 24 plus.

scsa, what can i say. i want to see it survive and grow and applaud the efforts of those trying to make it happen. rockinghams owners appear to be spending money on the circuit which indicates that it's future is safe(in the short term at least).

i just watched the dunlop great and british from croft on sky and they announced the sport maxx cup. do we really need ANOTHER multi class series?

[The STIG]

Mmm... Sport Maxx turns up at the same time as Mod Prods disappear...?

[Ian Sowman]

There's a world of difference between them.

And the new category is only running as a series.

[Alfa Fan]

Originally Posted by acorn

what worries me about that is that only 3 teams field nearly half the grid.

Not really, of the 27 cars registered

Team Dynamics 3 cars (11.1%)
Northern South 2 cars (7.4%)
Triple Eight 4 cars (16.8%)
West Surrey Racing 2 cars (7.4%)
Fast-Tec Motorsport 1 car (3.7%)
Geoff Steel Racing 1 car (3.7%)
Team Griffin Racing 1 car (3.7%)
Quest Racing 1 car (3.7%)
NJL Racing 1 car (3.7%)
Synchro Motorsport 1 car (3.7%)
Xero Competition 1 car (3.7%)
Kartworld Racing 1 car (3.7%)
BTC Racing 2 cars (7.4%)
Motorbase Performance 1 car (3.7%)
Infront Motorsport 1 car (3.7%)
Team Eurotech 1 car (3.7%)
Team Forward Racing 1 car (3.7%)
Techspeed Racing 1 car (3.7%)

So the top 4 team make up only 40.7% of the grid

[Tim Wilkinson]

Originally Posted by The STIG

Mmm... Sport Maxx turns up at the same time as Mod Prods disappear...?

After 2007 the "out of date" Sport Maxx cars were supposed to head for the Mod Prods for a special class all of their own.

Oops.

[kipper]

Originally Posted by teej

After 2007 the "out of date" Sport Maxx cars were supposed to head for the Mod Prods for a special class all of their own.

Oops.

Even so, there are still plenty of places where such a car can race after they become obsolete in Sport Maxx.

I do find it interesting as to how the Dunlop Sport Maxx series will pan out, for as Acorn points out multi-class saloon car championships are common yet the Dunlop series will have a reasonably prestigous spot and promotion.

[rcarr]

Originally Posted by Wedgie

Well, as a regular Knockhill marshal I have to say I hate the Minis. Until the powers that be gave them a very stern talking too recently, they regularly spent about half of each lap off the black stuff. If you are looking for the next crop of BTCC competitors, with a few exceptions, their driving standards are about right.

Wedgie.

I have to agree with you, wedgie! So much promise but no substance. I am not going to shed a tear about the MINIs disbanding! They take up too much space in the paddock and are too expensive for what they are! The XR2s in Scotland have the same idea but at a quarter of the price or less!

I feel that the BTCC have got alot to answer for in terms of driving standards! In the historics and the sports and saloons, in Scotland anyway, we have the right idea! To keep on the black stuff and no contact!

[Tim Wilkinson]

Originally Posted by kipper

Even so, there are still plenty of places where such a car can race after they become obsolete in Sport Maxx.

But competitively, without substantial modification cost? Was the link-up anything official? Dennis?

Maybe another category will absorb the obsolete cars in the way the RSCC had planned to (ie in their own class).

[kipper]

Originally Posted by teej

But competitively, without substantial modification cost?

I take your point. I was probably looking at things a bit too simplicistically.

[Tim Wilkinson]

Originally Posted by kipper

I take your point. I was probably looking at things a bit too simplicistically.

Ditto for me with your point; even with the demise of Mod Prods there are still an overwhelming number of saloon series/championships - at the last count I've got a car eligible for nearly a dozen!

[barry barnes]

Originally Posted by Ian Sowman

Scottish Legends were thin on numbers at Anglesey at Oulton, but did share the grids with UK Legends so it wasn't a major problem.

Interestingly, SAXMAX - a T-Car rival if you like - is expecting to field two full grids throughout next season.

Thats purely down to money T Cars are too expensive now JP is running it !

[R59]

Ahh but yeah but no but T-Cars is a BTCC training ground for the sons of well heeled retired (and not retired) former leading racing drivers. So they have plenty of money, and they like 6 car grids.

The issue with old TK-Maxx cars (once fashionable, but no more, therefore sold of cheap!) is that they would be a good basis for a more modified car. Good cars will be well prepared, and waiting for a sorted motor and transmission. - That's it, the old cars run in a series sponsored by TK-Maxx!!! (old stock that doesn't fit anyone!)

A bit like the old days when former prod-saloons ended up as ModProds, Road and Super Road Saloons, and dirty filthy rally cars!! They can now end up in the DTRC, DDMRC, NWS&S, Castle Combe, etc... etc...

My only query - SAXMAX - what happens when the supply of good secondhand Saxo's run out? Will it have to become the C3MAX series?

Rob.

[The STIG]

No it will turn into "Boy Racerised Corsa Max"...

T Cars do look very dated - but can they be raced outside of their own championship?

[redshoes]

Yes and no. T-cars are tube-frame so many series won't accept them. The engines are to small (1.4l ?) to be competitive in anything else, however the chassis is designed to take an number of bigger powerplants. Irish Supercars/RT2000 and the Dutch Vega series use the same cars with 2.0l Opel engines. I seem to recall anything up to a 2.5l V6 is possible.

[R59]

Originally Posted by redshoes

Yes and no. T-cars are tube-frame so many series won't accept them. The engines are to small (1.4l ?) to be competitive in anything else, however the chassis is designed to take an number of bigger powerplants. Irish Supercars/RT2000 and the Dutch Vega series use the same cars with 2.0l Opel engines. I seem to recall anything up to a 2.5l V6 is possible.

Didn't T-Cars orginally have a 2L Vauxhall/Opel lump, with the gearing sorted so they didn't top a ton. Plus an inlet restrictor?

Rob.

[redshoes]

Possibly, I was going from memory and can't say I've followed the series that closely (edit: at all). Having checked their website, since 2004 they are 2.0l Ford producing 145 bhp.

[kipper]

I guess the problem with estimating the competitiveness of T Cars elsewhere is that it is difficult to assess how quickly they would go due to the restrictions that are used on the cars. Also of course, they are non production which would place them in classes which are dominated by much quicker machinery, unless one races in an open race, such as Fredreck Nordstrom at Anglesey last December.

[Al Weyman]

Just a comment on the Road sports as i looked at this once but did not like the current tax and mot business and I think especially these days with MoTs with emmission tests and linked to DVLA i think its got harder and harder to have a road legal car for racing.

[greenamex2]

I looked at it as well. I was excluded on the basis that my car was eligible for hot hatch but wasn't in reality, because it was too modified.

[Dave Brand]

Originally Posted by racing59

Didn't T-Cars orginally have a 2L Vauxhall/Opel lump, with the gearing sorted so they didn't top a ton. Plus an inlet restrictor?

They used to use a Vauxhall engine, but they now use a 2-litre Ford Duratec; 145BHP & top speed of 120-ish MPH.

Edit: Oops, shoulda read redshoes reply before posting this!

[rbs]

On Saturday, at Silverstone, T Cars had 15 minutes qualifying and 2 15minute races for 9 cars!!!

That's where the axe should have fallen.