FIA Homologation Papers & HTPs

[SAMD]

Originally Posted by zefarelly

I find mine are about as much use as a solar powered torch though

[Nick JM]

Originally Posted by JP12

I called the MSA this morning and they have lots of homologation papers for the MGB so I just wanted to check so that I order the right one. For FIA Appendix K pre 66 racing do I need:

Paper dated 1965 GT198
Paper dated 1966 508
Paper dated 1962 GT72

I could be in the same boat - have you found out which it is yet?

[skentellytubby]

Originally Posted by Nick JM

I could be in the same boat - have you found out which it is yet?

Nick, mine are GT198 (1965)

HTH

Cheers
S

[Nick JM]

Thanks mate. Do they cater for the supercharged V6 4WD I am running with it?......!

[skentellytubby]

Hmm, let me check on that one. Page 5 will give the answer...

I'll check those rear discs Iain was talking about too if you like!

Talking of which, I do have a scanned copy I can email to you or Iain if you would like? (change the number and colour the photo on the front cover from red to green and you'll be away!!!)

Seriously though, I have a scanned copy of my papers if they would be of use?

S

[JP12]

I've attached homologation form 198.

Hi I've removed the papers from the post. With respect, we can't publish official papers (the MSA charges a fee for these) on the forum.

[Nick JM]

thanks mate - would not mind taking you up on that

[brakedisc]

Anyone know if there are any papers for the Clan Crusader?

[Jeremy Hall]

Yes I do know-it is not homologated.

[JasperClan]

Originally Posted by brakedisc

Anyone know if there are any papers for the Clan Crusader?

No they were cancelled when Clan went bust before paying the bill. However, I believe that there are moves afoot to re-homologate, if thats the right word.

Pete Richards

[Jeremy Hall]

Originally Posted by JasperClan

No they were cancelled when Clan went bust before paying the bill. However, I believe that there are moves afoot to re-homologate, if thats the right word.

Pete Richards

I understand it some what differently. Apparently there was an application which came to the attention of another manufacturer making a similar car and sharing the same gearbox. Clan had allegedly claimed 100 cars had been made but the other party contactd the gearbox manufacturer and asked how many gearboxes Clan had bought.It was then apparent that the gearbox number was nowhere near the required 100 stated in the application. The other manufacturer contacted the RAC and advised them that the homolgation application would be opposed.There was some chest beating but then Clan allegedly backed down.
Hence no homologation and presumably none in retrospect.

[one-two]

Does anyone know the current position on Lotus 7 homologation please? Apologies if this isn't the right place to ask. I think there used to be a special note in App K that referred to it, but that seems to have gone in more recent years and there seems instead to be a new range of categories of historic cars that might include it. Many thanks, Robert

[Jeremy Hall]

Originally Posted by one-two

Does anyone know the current position on Lotus 7 homologation please? Apologies if this isn't the right place to ask. I think there used to be a special note in App K that referred to it, but that seems to have gone in more recent years and there seems instead to be a new range of categories of historic cars that might include it. Many thanks, Robert

The Lotus 7 was never homologated. There were various reasons but the principal one was that it lacked doors and every category, outside single seaters, always required at least one door. The knock on effect was that no Lotus 7 took part in an International event-or at least legally- thus it has never been accepted by the FIA as a mainstream historic car. Some ASN -notably France- find a way of running them in ''old car race meetings'' but essentially they remain outside the loop. I suspect that will not change a great deal.

[JasperClan]

Originally Posted by Jeremy Hall

I understand it some what differently. Apparently there was an application which came to the attention of another manufacturer making a similar car and sharing the same gearbox. Clan had allegedly claimed 100 cars had been made but the other party contactd the gearbox manufacturer and asked how many gearboxes Clan had bought.It was then apparent that the gearbox number was nowhere near the required 100 stated in the application. The other manufacturer contacted the RAC and advised them that the homolgation application would be opposed.There was some chest beating but then Clan allegedly backed down.
Hence no homologation and presumably none in retrospect.

I think that refers to the Prodsports application and not the actual FIA homologation which was I believe for the rally Clan and undertaken by Andy Dawson.

Pete Richards

[one-two]

I don't want to distract from the Clan discussion, but my reading of Appendix K is that it now runs well beyond cars that were homologated and/or used in international competition in period. There are a number of references to non-homologated cars in section 2, and in section 2.3.11 we read about National Competition road-going Sports/Grand Touring Cars, which are

2.3.11.1 Models of production road-going Sports / Grand Touring cars from periods E to J which have no competition history at international level but which have established a significant competition history at national level in major events for production sport and/or grand touring cars and which comply with the national regulations relevant to those events.

There may well be a reason why that doesn't cover the Lotus 7, but, to my untrained eye, it doesn't look as if it's its exclusion from period international racing. It looks as if inclusion in period national racing is sufficient? What you then do with your National Competition road-going Sports/Grand Touring car is a different question! Many thanks, Robert

[Jeremy Hall]

Originally Posted by JasperClan

I think that refers to the Prodsports application and not the actual FIA homologation which was I believe for the rally Clan and undertaken by Andy Dawson.

Pete Richards

I cannot find any homologation for this car in the FIA list-but it may be me.

[JasperClan]

That's right. No current homologation unfortunately.

Pete Richards

[terence]

Nothing to do with Clans I'm afraid but thought it worth mentioning that after FIVE years of persistence,searching and anything else you could imagine,we have now got the HTPs for the Bluebell-Gibb's HRG!

[Robert Farrell]

I`m unsure as to whether this aids or hinders the Clan discussion. But, looking at at a copy of the 1973 Scottish International Rally. Official Programme. 15p ! Shows Donald Heggie/George Dean. No21. Clan Crusader. Running in category B. Group 5. International competition history? Also I would have thought it must have had some sort of paperwork to present at scrutineering. I know we had to produce ours for our Gp1 Ascona.

[John Turner]

Originally Posted by terence bower

Nothing to do with Clans I'm afraid but thought it worth mentioning that after FIVE years of persistence,searching and anything else you could imagine,we have now got the HTPs for the Bluebell-Gibb's HRG!

Terry, please remind us what year this was built and what spec it runs to. You might guess why I ask!

[JasperClan]

At the recent 40th Anniversary celebration of the first production Clan I came across the following in respect of the Clan homologation.

The Clan was homologated into Group 4 sports car racing. Group 4 called for an annual production of 500 identical cars and some drivers of rival makes challenged the homologation, which had been certified by the RAC. An appeal was made by these rival drivers to the FIA, who rescinded the homologation, because the necessary 500 cars had not been built.

The above was in a publication 'Cars of Today'

With all the tales of cars being moved around during inspection for homologation to achieve the required numbers by the large manufacturers its appears to me that Clan were unfortunate in their case.

There must be records of the above and in my opinion you could argue that the Clan was homologated in Group 4 and the statement would be the truth!

Pete Richards

[Peter Mallett]

I know I generally argue the opposite, but there are times when it would make sense to do what you say. If for no other reason that a relatively low cost vehicle would be available to people for historic events.

JR makes a good point in the Spa 6hrs thread when he suggests that there is a general downturn in entries and perhaps enthusiasm at the moment. Cars like the Clan are interesting and fun, so it would be good to homologate them...... or do something. I view them in very much the same light as the Swallow Dorretti.

[John Turner]

Completely agree, Peter

[Robert Farrell]

As the Clan was accepted in international motorsport events as a Group 5 car. The following indicates it must have been homologated as a Group 4 car at some point.
SPECIAL PRODUCTION CARS (Group 5)
Art 268-Definition: Special production cars for which no minimum production
number is required, but which are derived from those cars benefiting from
a valid homologation in Groups 1 to 4.

[Brian A]

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

........... I view them in very much the same light as the Swallow Dorretti.

Ah - but you would be able to get HTP papers on a Doretti as one raced at an International event at Silverstone in 1954 driven by Don Truman. He was up against the likes of Archie Scott-Brown in a Lister-Bristol, Peter Collins, Roy Salvadori and Carroll Shelby in Astons and Duncan Hamilton, Tony Rolt amd Ninian Sanderson in Jaguars. But he did finish and beat the Austin Healeys which was the purpose of the exercise, Scott-Brown won.

A Doretti also started the 1955 Sebring 12 hours but was black flagged after a few laps as it was formally a reserve - but had started anyway. It seems that the race organisation at Sebring was a little on the relaxed side back then.