[Rules] DRS: Is it time for it to go?

[Teretonga]

Originally Posted by Aysedasi

And sadly that now seems to be quite a novel concept.....

Because if 'we', the administrators, decide where the zones are we can stack grandstands and spectators and smother it in video cameras, but if they can pass anywhere 'we' would have to smother the whole circuit in cameras and that would cost more....

[Taxi645]

Originally Posted by S griffin

BTCC Frog makes a good point in his blog that drivers are less willing to pass in other places without DRS. Part of that problem is if they passed before a DRS zone, they would likely be immediately repassed in the DRS

I also agree with this point. Why try in a difficult part of the track if you can do it with DRS o n the straight. And even more so if you make the pass before the DRS detection line the other guy will get DRS after you took all the risk at a difficult overtaking point. So yes it actually discourages overrakjng elsewhere on the track. The more DRS zones you have, the larger the percentage of the track this applies to.

I also agree with the point made earlier in the thread that F1 should, apart from tuning the DRS zones at the different tracks, also experiment this year with a (sprint) race without DRS. This to learn more from racing this generation of cars completely without DRS which you can't learn from just tuning the zones for reasons stated in the first paragraph.

Good options would be the Silverstone or Brasil sprint races (if it doesn't work out, it will be only the sprint not the main race effected). Or the Monza or Bakuh races, because of the long straights which allows more time for the normal slipstream effect to aid the following car.

[crmalcolm]

DRS is a 'solution' to the issue of cars not being able to overtake. Underlying this though is the question of whether that is down to the cars, or the tracks.

The cars have changed a lot over time, but the overall track characteristics have remained the same. It is easy to point the finger at the cars as being the problem, but is it the case that the tracks have not developed enough to match the cars? Consider the following statement: "The main criticism against Tilke’s tracks revolves around the fact that they are pretty much similar. They share common characteristics such as long straights with a slow turn at the end and more corners than deemed necessary.
These characteristics are said to make his circuits boring. Little to no overtaking is seen on these tracks, and the overall quality of the race, along with the excitement it brings, suffers as a result."

A couple of points come out of this. Firstly, a lot of fans expect circuits to be built with overtaking opportunities.
But one thing that stands out to me, in light of recent comments here - if the design of a circuit creates overtaking opportunities, is that not dictating where overtakes will happen?

The solution is not as simple as adding or removing DRS, or to change the cars to be more akin to previous designs. It has to consider the entirety of the package on the grid.

DRS is used because the cars do not match the circuits in use. The cars will not change much - because design and development of the last decades is locked in. Anything that makes them lighter, smaller or less aero-dependent will only see them moving towards resembling a lower formula. So I would advocate for a wholesale change in the track design before reviewing the necessity of DRS.

[VIVA GT]

I must admit that I've been sitting on the fence about this DRS discussion, but the more of these comments I read, the more I'm thinking that it should go. I (now) totally see the point that it is discouraging natural/talented/opportunistic (and therefore exciting/unpredictable) overtakes and effectively telling drivers where they can pass the car in front. (OK, I do accept that there have been a few unexpected overtakes since the introduction of DRS, but not many).
I think that it would be an excellent plan to try at least one Sprint Race without it to see what happens, but I think it would be an even better plan to remove it from at least on of the Grand Prix too, so drivers have the opportunity to re-learn the ability to work out their own overtaking strategies.

[Taxi645]

Originally Posted by VIVA GT

I must admit that I've been sitting on the fence about this DRS discussion, but the more of these comments I read, the more I'm thinking that it should go. I (now) totally see the point that it is discouraging natural/talented/opportunistic (and therefore exciting/unpredictable) overtakes and effectively telling drivers where they can pass the car in front. (OK, I do accept that there have been a few unexpected overtakes since the introduction of DRS, but not many).
I think that it would be an excellent plan to try at least one Sprint Race without it to see what happens, but I think it would be an even better plan to remove it from at least on of the Grand Prix too, so drivers have the opportunity to re-learn the ability to work out their own overtaking strategies.

Another note the electric power deployment strategy across the track. In a fight for position I can image it is now set up such to get the following car within the 1s at the detection line and still have deployment when trying the pass. If you have no DRS the electric deployment during the lap could change in order to maximizes changes in a different spot.

I also think it would be good to do this experiment this year already. If you wait till next year it is already very (too) tight to analyse and learn the lessons in time to set out the 2026 regulations.

COTA would perhaps also be a good track. It has swooping corners that already allows offset lines that aid following. With this years cars that could be even better. Also it has a pretty long straight.

Regarding track design. If the 2026 regulations further improve what is already achieved regarding close racing, it indeed could be a good idea to look at some tight corners on tracks with the long straight hard breaking concept. Adding more flow the track and more close fighting in corners which to me is always more interesting than the passes on the straights we see most.

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

A couple of points come out of this. Firstly, a lot of fans expect circuits to be built with overtaking opportunities.
But one thing that stands out to me, in light of recent comments here - if the design of a circuit creates overtaking opportunities, is that not dictating where overtakes will happen?

Surely the answer to that (and I agree with you) is yes, but that has always been the case. There have always been tracks with corners where overtaking is impossible. So yes, the design of any circuit will dictate where overtaking is possible. Even ovals.

[S griffin]

Another thing is, DRS is not good for casual or first time viewers. How are you supposed to explain it. F1 has quite a few complexities in it, but most of them can explained away. DRS is though is too complicated to explain easily. F1 needs to keep things as simple as possible and DRS doesn’t do that

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by S griffin

Another thing is, DRS is not good for casual or first time viewers. How are you supposed to explain it. F1 has quite a few complexities in it, but most of them can explained away. DRS is though is too complicated to explain easily. F1 needs to keep things as simple as possible and DRS doesn’t do that

Agree.... But it's not the only thing that can be weird. Other items that may seem complex to someone who is totally new to motorsports.

* The need to use different tires during the race
* Multi-phase qualifying
* Virtual vs. classic safety car
* And don't even try to explain the things we argue about on a regular basis (leaving racing room) because we are veterans and we can't even agree.

I actually think DRS is pretty easy to explain. "If you catch the driver in front of you, it helps you pass them. They can do the same to you." It's not great, but it is simple.

Richard

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

Agree.... But it's not the only thing that can be weird. Other items that may seem complex to someone who is totally new to motorsports.

* The need to use different tires during the race
* Multi-phase qualifying
* Virtual vs. classic safety car
* And don't even try to explain the things we argue about on a regular basis (leaving racing room) because we are veterans and we can't even agree.

I actually think DRS is pretty easy to explain. "If you catch the driver in front of you, it helps you pass them. They can do the same to you." It's not great, but it is simple.

Richard

I tend to agree with this.
How do you explain to a first time viewer what happened behind the SC at the last race in 2021?


And for those how genuinely do want a quick reference for people new to the sport (noting that DRS is explained in 64 words):

'Slang Terms Used in Formula One

Backmarker
Trailing drivers are often lapped by the leading drivers. The trailing drivers are referred to as backmarkers just as we refer to back benchers in schools and colleges.

Blistering/Graining
Blistering is when the cold surface of the track causes pieces to blow out of the tyre surface because the inside of the tyre is warmer. Graining is just the opposite. It is a situation when the tyres are cold and the hotter surface outside causes the rubber chunks to come off and stick to the tyre.

Bottoming Out
When the underside of the car comes in contact with the track, it is referred to as bottoming. It happens because of uneven tracks and in cases of sudden rise or crest. You get a shower of sparks when a car bottoms out because F1 cars use titanium skid blocks underneath their chassis.

Box
‘Box’ is a reminder to the drivers coming from a controller in the pits that they have a pit stop coming during the lap or in the next lap. The word is derived from the German word ‘Boxenstopp’ which means a pit stop.

Brake Bias
Brake bias is what allows the drivers to adjust the difference between how much the front wheels and the rear wheels brake. Normally, both the front and rear wheels will break equally when the driver pushes down on the brake pedal. In wet conditions, the driver may want to increase the braking in the rear tyres and reduce it in the front wheels.

Drivers adjust brake biases throughout the course of a race to balance the car depending on the condition of the tyres and the amount of fuel left in the tanks.

Dirty Air/Clean Air
Dirty air is the turbulent air left in the wake of the preceding car. The car coming in the wake of the leading car will experience a drag because of the dirty air. Clean air is the undisturbed air encountered by a car speeding all on its own. The air flows smoothly around the car’s streamlined surface but leaves dirty air in its wake.

DRS
Drag Reduction System (DRS) is allowed to be used in only marked zones on the track. Turbulent air behind the leading car can lead to a drag on the car following it closely, reducing the down force. A flap on the car is then used to reduce the drag and increase the down force which can help the car in overtaking on a straight.

Falling Off the Cliff
Falling off the cliff describes the situation when the tyre compounds deteriorate unusually rapidly during the race. Ths slows down the car and renders it uncompetitive. Drivers say “ my tyres fell off the cliff and I had to pit stop early” to describe their predicament.

Flatspot
When a car driver locks his front brakes, the front tyres skid along the surface of the track rather than roll across it. This wears the tyres giving it a prominent flat spot. A flat spot on the tyres results in unscheduled pit stops spoiling the chances of the driver in the race.

Green Track
A green track is an almost unused track that drivers encounter on the first day of practice. The track has little rubber laid down onto it affording the cars less than optimum traction on the dry.

Lift and Coast
If a driver feels that he is going to run out of fuel before the end of the race, he has to conserve his fuel. The driver then lifts off the throttle and cruises. The driver is said to be ‘lifting and coasting” into the braking zone at the cost of speed.

Marbles
Tiny pieces of rubber that are shredded off the tyres while cornering are called marbles. They accumulate off the racing line and driving on them can be dangerous as the car loses traction.

Oversteer/Understeer
When a car is cornering and the rear wheels of the car lose grip and step out of line, the driver is said to have oversteered. On the other hand, if the front wheels lose grip and the car takes a shallower turn than the driver intended, the car has been understeered.

Polesitter
A polesitter is the driver who sets the fastest lap in Q3 of the qualifying sessions. Pole sitters have an advantage if they get away from the pack and hold the lead into the first corner.

Power Unit
The engine of a modern-day F1 car has ‘power units’ rather than just engines as in the olden days. This unit consists of six components. The Internal Combustion Engine (ICE), the Turbo Charger (TC), the Motor Generator Unit – H (MGU-H), Motor Generator Unit – Kinetic (MGU-K), the Energy Store (ES) and the Control Electronics (CE) taken together is called the Power Unit. These components combine to give an F1 car just below 1000 bhp of power.

Tankslapper
A driver is said to have got a tankslapper when a sideways movement causes the rear end of the car to step out of line.'

[BTCC frog]

I think one thing to consider is why we actually watch Formula 1 (something I am asked fairly often and struggle to think of a good answer ). Obviously the sheer speed of the cars is quite special, particularly at the track, but that is not why we watch 20+ races every year. The strategies of the different teams and watching for which will be successful is also a big part, but I think the main thing that fans watch Formula 1 for is to see extremely skilful driving, and while at tracks like Monaco that comes just from a normal qualifying lap, most of this incredibly skilful driving comes from particularly impressive overtakes, and seeing an amazing overtake or great battle is often the highlight of any race.

The number of these is reduced when overtakes can be made easily with DRS on the straight and comes back to the point of no DRS encouraging overtakes in other, more interesting parts of the track. With Vettel, Alonso and Hamilton the only drivers to have raced in F1 before DRS, drivers could become more and more used to it over time that, as others have said, they become incapable of pulling off an amazing overtake at all. I still think it has been necessary with the old cars, but F1 should always be looking to remove it as soon as possible and although the new cars aren’t perfect, I think they are definitely good enough to run without DRS.

The best overtake of the 2021 season for me was undoubtedly when Lando Norris passed Charles Leclerc on the inside at Curva Grande with a wheel on the grass. We need more of that.

[S griffin]

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

Agree.... But it's not the only thing that can be weird. Other items that may seem complex to someone who is totally new to motorsports.

* The need to use different tires during the race
* Multi-phase qualifying
* Virtual vs. classic safety car
* And don't even try to explain the things we argue about on a regular basis (leaving racing room) because we are veterans and we can't even agree.

I actually think DRS is pretty easy to explain. "If you catch the driver in front of you, it helps you pass them. They can do the same to you." It's not great, but it is simple.

Richard

A few of those things are easier to explain than DRS. Although the two compound per race rule is not one of them. One or two of my friends who don’t watch F1 regularly like me, don’t understand why they need to do that.

Multi phrase qualifying is one you get used to after 2 or 3 views. Virtual and actual SC is also pretty easy to explain. And leaving racing room should be quite easy to explain, if not for the stewards being inconsistent in it’s interpretation

DRS is a lot more than “catch the guy in front” and “help you pass them”. You’ve also got to explain why you can only use it in certain places, why only the driver behind can use it, not to mention why it’s there in the first place

Add to all the other things I’ve said about it and it’s clear it’s time for it to go. The quantity of passing may have been increased by it’s presence, but not the quality

[chillibowl]

For sure I know this isn’t what you are saying, but I like the difficult, and sure artificially, high bar f1 requires new viewers to clear in order to just watch their first race. Been watching for a long time and I’m still learning.

This maybe more then anything else is why I watch. The numerous ways this one sport intersects with so many areas of human endeavour and commerce that I enjoy leaves me continually intrigued.

In that light, if newcomers find it hard to understand…well
I’m ok with that. Also aware how pretentious that is but not everything has to be for everybody right?

[VIVA GT]

Although the 'list of translations posted by crmalcolm was interesting, I didn't 100% agree with some of the translations.
For me a Tank Slapper (for example) is where a car loses grip in one direction, the driver over-corrects and the car loses grip in the other direction and so on. (The phrase comes from the same situation happening in motorcycling where the rider applying the steering correction to his handlebars appears to be slapping the (fuel) tank with his hands.

[BTCC frog]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

For sure I know this isn’t what you are saying, but I like the difficult, and sure artificially, high bar f1 requires new viewers to clear in order to just watch their first race. Been watching for a long time and I’m still learning.

This maybe more then anything else is why I watch. The numerous ways this one sport intersects with so many areas of human endeavour and commerce that I enjoy leaves me continually intrigued.

In that light, if newcomers find it hard to understand…well
I’m ok with that. Also aware how pretentious that is but not everything has to be for everybody right?

I totally agree with this. Sports should never be dumbed down and made less good to allow new fans to understand everything in their first race. Enough of F1 is very clear that you can enjoy a race without understanding all the rules, and if a new fan doesn’t understand something like DRS or the safety car rules it just takes a Google search to find out.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by VIVA GT

For me a Tank Slapper (for example) is where a car loses grip in one direction, the driver over-corrects and the car loses grip in the other direction and so on. (The phrase comes from the same situation happening in motorcycling where the rider applying the steering correction to his handlebars appears to be slapping the (fuel) tank with his hands.

Agreed - I understand the term to come from motorcycling initially. Probably more accurately to be described as a 'speed wobble'.

I have heard it referred to in cars quite often as a single over-correction of counter-steer though. And for someone new to F1, that is probably the most likely situation they would hear it used.


Back on topic - if it is difficult to describe or not makes no difference to me in whether it is something that should be permitted.

[S griffin]

Originally Posted by BTCC frog

I totally agree with this. Sports should never be dumbed down and made less good to allow new fans to understand everything in their first race. Enough of F1 is very clear that you can enjoy a race without understanding all the rules, and if a new fan doesn’t understand something like DRS or the safety car rules it just takes a Google search to find out.

But the problem is F1 has overcomplicated it too much and if anything artificial means have been put in place to keep fans with a passing interest in it, rather than the die hard fans. The fact is most sports are relatively easy to follow so anyone can watch them. F1 has got too complicated

[Greem]

Originally Posted by S griffin

But the problem is F1 has overcomplicated it too much and if anything artificial means have been put in place to keep fans with a passing interest in it, rather than the die hard fans. The fact is most sports are relatively easy to follow so anyone can watch them. F1 has got too complicated

Millions of people watch baseball and American Football. Try as I might, I just can't get my head around them because I think they're far too complicated.

Does anyone remember Kabbadi? Did anyone really understand that?

It genuinely feels like this thread is approaching the "What is F1, anyway?" inflection point that almost all threads relating to technicalities and rules reach

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by Greem

Does anyone remember Kabbadi? Did anyone really understand that?

hahaha i certainly dont and by watching it it actually makes less sense to me!

[S griffin]

I remember we had to do it at school. Certainly seems to be popular in Buddhist culture

[Born Racer]

I don't know if it's time for it to go now, mid-season, but it needs the current overtaking situation analysed after this year's made-for-measure approach to all the other regulations in that regard, adjusting if necessary in correlation with the DRS being scrapped.

The DRS should be an anachronism, as we now have the 2022 regulations which were designed to facilitate close following.

I found the remarks about being stuck in a DRS train in Imola very interesting. Was the irony not lost on anyone else that a 'DRS train' simply means a train of cars with the possibility of opening the flap and therefore neutralising the effect - in other words - they couldn't rely on their own use of DRS to approach the car in front?

[S griffin]

Yes, it defeats the whole object of it if everyone is using it at the same time and it therefore neutralises any chance of overtaking

[Woolley]

I've got a better idea. Lets keep DRS, but apply it to the whole lap. Just take the top wing off altogether. Which will make them reduce the front wing too.

For overtaking, go back to the situation where if you got ANY part of your car alongside the one you're overtaking you've earned the right to a car's width so that we bring back the late lunge. They can then race off the corner instead of into it, which with a heap less downforce should make it much more fun.

[VIVA GT]

Originally Posted by Woolley

I've got a better idea. Lets keep DRS, but apply it to the whole lap. Just take the top wing off altogether. Which will make them reduce the front wing too.

For overtaking, go back to the situation where if you got ANY part of your car alongside the one you're overtaking you've earned the right to a car's width so that we bring back the late lunge. They can then race off the corner instead of into it, which with a heap less downforce should make it much more fun.

That's a perfect solution, it's so simple!
(And those two reasons are the very reason why it will never happen...)

[PhilipR]

I still think it is needed. Looking at the 1st 5 races cars seem to be able to follow closer than in the past but still need DRS to create that difference in order to overtake.
With current rules and budget cap and freeze on engine development, I imagine the performances will converge with a smaller spread of performance between cars meaning overtaking will be more difficult even if having a small advantage(does not help that most long straights come at the end of slow corners which do not facilitate overtaking)

Also I notice an obsession in F1 about overtaking and how it was happening more in the past, but I believe people do not tackle all the facts:
a) In the past cars were less reliable needing to be driven carefully which can create gaps in performances
b) Chassis, aero and engine development were not capped meaning teams could find big gains
c) basic aero
d) Multiple rubber manufacturers creating differences in performances based on track and temperature
e) smaller cars

We will probably never get back to those times so maybe drs is a necessary evil to make up for car and regs development

[Casper]

DRS is one of many artificial devices that have been introduced to F1 in a bid to make it more appealing to the customers who watch it. Anything that interferes with the racing after the flag drops and is not initiated by the driver is in fact an enhancer and should not be there and that includes tyre pit stops and DRS. Tyre pit stops could be managed to make them a dubious decision to take if they were voluntary by making them longer by regulation than a lap time decided before the race. That would put the pitting car in an unknown place when it returns to the field but even that is an artificial enhancement of what should be a race decided by the car and driver. This should be the pinnacle of car design and driver skill but that is not happening and never will. The pinnacle of motor sport? I don't think so.