Unfulfilled talents - those who never achieved potential?

[henk4]

Originally posted by John Turner
I'm struggling a bit with that one, Henk. It might be because of Michael's ability to pull a team together to make a competive package that enabled Irvine to win any races at all (he also had a Le Mans win) and Rubens is also benefitting from this and still adding to his tally. I think with a few GP wins under his belt he will have realised his potential and he has had his 'day of days' with that superb drive at Silverstone this year - one of the greatest drives of all time which will not be forgotten. As for Jos, he has never really had a good car under him and it is difficult to tell, but you may well be right.

IMHO wherever Schumacher is pulling the ropes, the cars will be developed suiting his requirements and wishes. If his teammates would have a free hand too, they might be able to get more out of the cars. But I don't want the make a big point of this because the name of the guy that first sprung to mind when I read this thread had already been mentioned: Chris Amon, and just now I am thinking of Lorenzo Bandini.

[Andrew Fellowes]

henk4, thanks for raising Amon again, 'cause it gives me an excuse to go back to him!!

I do remember one year at Silverstone watching him with fingers crossed. I moved from Maggots down to Becketts and the thing that struck me was how ragged most drivers were around Becketts, with the exception of just 2, Jackie Stewart & Chris Amon. He was very quick and so, so smooth and so deserved a win!

The other one to add is Bert Hawthorne the New Zealander who died in ’72. Sadly I never saw him race and If you had asked me that year who Bert Hawthorne was I would not have been able to answer. But reading back copies of Autosport it is clear that he was exceptional.

[Teretonga]

Brett Riley who was in the Unipart F3 team with Mansell and was often the faster driver. For a multitude of reasons he never quite got it together and but nearly got the ralt Honda F2 drive which went to Geoff Lees (another wasted talent).

[marcus]

Christian Fittipaldi would be another one , debut season in F3000 he won the title then moved to f1 with lower grade teams to gain experience and then jumped to CART where he had some good success with some wins but never looked like being a title contender.

now it seems his career is in ruins after trying out in the Nascar ranks and from what ive seem failing at that.

P.S great thread this and has brought up some fantastic names , hope we can keep it going

[John Turner]

Agree with all those who mention Amon - he must have been the greatest driver never to realise his true potential in F1 although he had some good results in sports cars when the profile of that type of racing seemed higher. Martin Brundle is another. But, Henk, the point is that MS has the stature and ability on and off the track to pull a team together which the others you mention alongside him could never have achieved without. I could argue that on that basis, Irvine exceeded any potential he would have had but for Michael's presence, and that Rubens, over the last two seasons probably has reached his true level with a few wins to prove it, and hopefully, a few more to come.

[henk4]

There have been rare occasions when teammates of MS were able/allowed to show that they could have been faster. Always when MS is in the lead it is not considered a good idea for teammates to attack him. Eddie Irvine may actually not have been so talented, as during the only season where he was truly backed up (MS being out of contention after Silverstone) he was unable to beat Hakkinen. Eddie though has a soft spot with me because of his refusal to give way to Senna in Suzuka. Everybody at that time agreed that Senna was good, only Senna would have spelled that with one "o" less. I like heretics.

[Neil C]

I agree that Bellof, Cervert, Rodriquez and Amon never had the chance to show what they were capable of. To the names of that era I'd add Peter Revson and Ronnie Peterson.

It could be said that Senna didn't achieve his full potential either. Had he lived, I'd guess M. Schumacher would now only have the second most WDC's in F1 history.

[henk4]

Originally posted by Neil C
I agree that Bellof, Cervert, Rodriquez and Amon never had the chance to show what they were capable of. To the names of that era I'd add Peter Revson and Ronnie Peterson.

It could be said that Senna didn't achieve his full potential either. Had he lived, I'd guess M. Schumacher would now only have the second most WDC's in F1 history.

Is that Ricardo or Pedro Rodriguez or both of them??

[Neil C]

I was thinking Ricardo. Pedro was very worthy, but I was not as familiar with his career or history. Welcome to 10/10's henk4.

[henk4]

Originally posted by Neil C
I was thinking Ricardo. Pedro was very worthy, but I was not as familiar with his career or history. Welcome to 10/10's henk4.

Thanks, BTW Amon has very often shown what he was capable of, but while doing so most of the time his car gave up.

One contender could also be Jan Lammers, now mostly known as a respected Le Mans winner, but at the end of the seventies trying to buy his way into F1, with inferior material as the result.

[Andrew Fellowes]

Henk, sad how often Amons car gave up wasn't it? Murphy really over did that one.

If you have several weeks spare have a look at the Amon thread on Atlas.

talk about a barmy army, its over 70 pages!!!

On one page Mo Nunn is quoted as saying that Amon was top of his list of drivers.

-there are some great posts, not sure after page 19 as by then my eyeballs wouldn't function anymore.

[chunterer]

Some excellent offerings over the last few days gents!

Re Irvine, i actually think he had a genuine talent when he got to F1 and initially made the most of it. However it think he deteriorated into what i'd call a 'professional driver' where he just took the money and luvvied it up being an F1 driver.

Amon was before my time but i've read up on him and there have been some obvious comparisons to Alesi, even if Chris was not a wild man!

Can anyone tell me what happened to Argentine, Quique Mansilla? i thought he was ace until he ran out of cash....

[Dan Rear]

Mansilla looked OK in F3 in 82, running Byrne close for the title. However, with the wonders of hindsight, the people he competed with that year didn't do much thereafter, with one exception. Those who flopped after I'd put Byrne himself, Scott, Toledano, Weaver (at the top level). The exception was Brundle who had a good GP and Sportscar career. Mansilla didn't do a lot in F2 the year after, I think maybe his career in Europe was stymied by the Falklands...

[kingfloopy]

I can think of a few in NASCAR stock car racing:

Sam Ard (severe injuies in a race accident)
Robbie Moroso (died, off track accident)
Tim Richmond (died, illness)
Adam Petty (died, practice accident)

These drivers had a lot of potential and talent but were never really able to achieve their ultimate potential because of injury or death. Who knows what might have been had they raced longer.


J.D.

[Sile]

Tommy Bryne, Geoff Lees, Marc Surer, Derek Warwick, Manfred Winkelhock, Jean-Pierre Jarier, Stefan Bellof, Stefano Modena, Giani Morbidelli, & Mike Tackwell could have all been Grand Prix winners in the right car at the right time!

[ghinzani]

Mansilla looked good for a brief period in CART in 85, then the money ran out.

[kingfloopy]

I thought of another. Ritchie Evans. He used to run NASCAR modifieds. He died in a wreck in 1984. He never raced in Grand National or Cup, mostly because he never wanted to. Judging from how he ran in modifieds he probally would have been a force to reckon with in the bigger stock cars had he tried it.

J.D.

[Fiorentina 1]

1. Andrea Montermini: Did well in F3000 & Champcars, but never went futher.

2. Enrique Bernoldi: Won everything in F.Renault & F3, went to F1 & sucked!

3. Pizzonia: Same as Bernoldi, instead he wasn't that great in F3000 either.

4. Minassian: Never got the shot he deserved with Ganassi in Cart, I think he was better then Junquiera.

5. Nilton Rossoni: bad a$$ Barber Dodge driver that never went futher, and I think quit racing.

6. Elton Julian: Should have been Americas f1 driver, but the USA didn't care to have an American in F1 like they do now. He is better then T.Bell & all these other w*nkers....

7. Richard Tarling: Palmer audi Champ that should have won a season of F3000, but got screwed by Palmer audi, which ended his career. Wilson making it to F1 and not tarling is just pure luck & money, not talent or speed.....

8. Toby Scheckter: Some say he was better then Tomas, but Jody is a S.O.B and pretty much f-ed up his son's chance of doing anything.

9. Jeff Simmons: Best Barber Dodge Pro-Series driver 2 years in a row, got screwed in Indy Lights & has been out of racing for a few years until last season when he won a few races in the Infinty Pro-Series. He should have been in Champcars by now, if it wasn't for greedy Cart team owners.

10. Jeff Shafer: Very good young driver that also got screwed by Palmer-audi BS and never went any futher. He too could have made it Champcars with no problem, if it wasn't for the lack of $$$ that Cart owners look for in a driver.

[marcus]

would have to agree with Nilton Rossoni , what I saw of him was very impressive.

if we are now heading into modern times I guess you would have to add Hoover Orsi in there as well, very talented guy but I havent heard of him for ages and seems to have drifted into obscurity

[chunterer]

Someone mentioned the 'inis' ie the raft of good Italians who were in F3/F3000 late 80's early 90's.

Montermini is a good one, Naspetti, Tamburini were all pretty well matched ability wise. Morbidelli progressed a bit further for a bit longer but didn't quite do it?

If i haven't mentioned him then Marco Apicella is SURELY the outstanding candidate, he was as good or better than anyone else in 3000 Italian or otherwise at any point. I really couldn't understand what went wrong?!

Barbazza maybe a similar case, but his breaks came a little too late and he often overdrove equipment. Still think his B'ham drive in 1990 was one of best i've seen.

But this was back in the days where there was lots of Marlboro money in Italy, courtesy perhaps, of Mr De Cesaris' old man who i believe was the importer?

Alfonso Garcia De Vinuesa was v fast until hurt himself and then lost his bottle i think?

Another perhaps the late Marco Campos, a Draco protege who was tragically killed at Magny Cours. He was probably on Alonso's level in terms of talent, before Alonso, if you know what i mean?

Any thoughts on these offerings guys?

[henk4]

slightly preceding the ini's, what ever happened to Ivan Capelli, who was the only non-turbo driver to lead a race in 1988 albeit very shortly.

[chunterer]

Henk! Yes i always thought 'Dustin Hoffman' was ace but i suspect he was similar to Modena in that he couldn't mentally stay strong and lost confidence.

I think Fizzi, Zanardi and possibly Trulli and maybe Patrese in his day have been the only Italian drivers who have kept tough and continued to be quick when things go against them?

[henk4]

how about De Cesaris (can of wurms here?)he could be quick, or Jack o' Mally? I am also thinking about someone JP Beltoise will always remember, Ignacio Giunti.
Nanini for that helicopter accident might also have developed further.

[krt917]

Yes, Giunti was developing very well until that awful accident. Nannini too, though at least he was able to make a comeback in the DTM

[Dani Filth]

agree . with the MS teammates beeing unfulfilled, wich is a bid sad, but for sure they were/are not WDC material ..