Brabham BT30

[Ted Walker]

David I dont think Jimmy Johnstone actually had a BT30

[David McKinney]

But Johnstone's "whatever" went to Seaman?

[Andrew Fellowes]

Reminds me of the time when the French maritime union was on strike and all the BBC reporter on the 6 o’clock news had to say was;

“French seamen are blockading the Port of Calais”.

The situation rapidly got out of hand, a small snigger turning into complete hysteria, you know the sort of laughter that grows exponentially where the original joke becomes irrelevant.

SORRY,SORRY SORRY,
back to Johnstone's "whatever" went to Seaman? OK Ted, what’s the answer?

and Andrew, Minus 10 points for telling school boy stories on a serous forum.

[Andrew Fellowes]

1.
BT30-1 destroyed Hockenheim 1970
BT30-5 Possibly scrapped Hong Kong post ’71
BT30-21 Wrecked Pau ’71 confirmed scrapped
BT30-22 Wrecked Nurburgring, scrapped.

Ted your Monza Museum 1991 for BT30-22 is interesting, I have always thought that these cars don’t disappear that easily.
How many others of the list above will develop Lazarus symptoms will be interesting to see.

2.
Am I correct that there are now 3 BT30's known to exist that we don't have number for;

BT29-27 co-habits with a BT30
BT30 in Germany,
BT30 in Japan with Mitsubishi

3.
Lastly does any one have contact details for Chris Seaman to confirm type & number & that it came from Johnstone?

Or does anyone know the answer?

(Is that enough penance for interrupting the thread with my last post?)

[Andrew Fellowes]

BT30-17 & BT36-11

This is a very interesting account by Beat Schenker (Silvio Moser's mechanic) for 1971 & how I guess they got a BT30/36.

"25th July 1971 Grandprix city of Imola (I) dns for accident in practice.
Why started practice very well with the slick tires, immediately Firestone stop us, imposing to fit normal tires otherwise no tires for the rest of season. For a wrong prevision Firestone thinks for Imola is better this solution and was without slicks for the others teams. After the tire change Silvio was started for the lancing lap, losing the car on the first corner of the timing lap (Tamburello). Only after taking of the bodywork why was able to sea the bended frame. Wee found sign from mounting tools on one rear tire, reason for tire fails and with this for the damage on the car. Firestone gives us a free tire. We have some problem to find the money for the repair. Like my, Ron Tauranac means best is change the frame and with this was used a BT36 and only the material not damage on the accident. The Swiss custom has never accepted only the dashboard number, and so also in the frame was stamped, by Brabham, the BT30 – 17 numbers and for al the rest of season the inscriptions and custom documents was with this number.

I don’t remember on how we sold the car, on the end of the season."


Oh Yah!!!!!

[Andrew Fellowes]

BT30-17

David I see your notes suggest that 30-17 appeared after “17 years with a continental owner” for auction in 1996. That puts it back to ’79.

Quote from Beat Schenker
“I entered in England with ‘carne ATA’ and frame number BT30-17 and sort with the same number. The same in inverse order for the Swiss custom.
I have to find out where the car is going after us.”

I read that to mean that he took the bent chassis and chassis plate 30-17 to the UK & brought back the new chassis & chassis plate 30-17 & plate 36-11 to Switzerland. We also know the chassis plate stayed in Switzerland with the new chassis for the rest of ’71.
I assume that if Ron had suggested that it was not viable to repair the bent chassis there would have been no reason to keep it & it would have been junked.

So now we have 2 chassis plates & one chassis in Switzerland and one (scrapped) chassis & no plates in the UK. Correct?

So who has the chassis with BT30-17 stamped onto it by Brabham? –because the way I read it that is the only true car out of BT30-17 & BT36-11.

The only thing original to the car that does not have this number is the chassis plate its self.

Shades of BT24-3 again.

David? Ted?

[Ted Walker]

Andrew. BT30-17 had a number of special features fitted to it by the John Coombes team at J.Y Stewarts request.I tracked this car down to an English owner living in Switzerland. It still had these features fitted . The car came back to the UK and the same owner had the chassis "restored" and the restorer REMOVED these parts thinking they were non original. The car was auctioned at one of the Coys Silverstones. I assume that Mosers mechanic is saying that they used the carnet from the BT30 on the BT36 ?????

[Andrew Fellowes]

Apologies for the double post, teach me not to use the back arrow. I will do this post in two parts.

Ted, what you are suggesting is entirely possible but let me go through the events, & yes, Silvio’s car carried on for the rest of ’71 as BT30-17 because all that remained of the first car was a totally bare chassis. It surely ceased to exist as a car ‘till 1996?

[Andrew Fellowes]

So to recap;

Ron Tauranac advises that it is not viable to repair the chassis & to buy a new one.

Beat removes all reusable bits from BT30-17, he travels to the UK with the bare bent chassis under the carnet for BT30-17

Beat returns to Switzerland with a new bare chassis to BT36 spec with some new parts. This chassis is stamped with BT30-17 as well as having the BT30-17 chassis plate and the new plate BT36-11 which is presumably in Beat’s pocket.

English & Swiss customs are none the wiser that Silvio has in fact bought a new chassis. The car carries the identity of BT30-17 for the rest of the season.

The original bare bent chassis, with AM number but no chassis plate is left with Ron Tauranac.

Someone then decides that the original chassis is worth souveniring . This chassis has no chassis plate, no suspension, no wheels, no body work, nothing at all.
This is the remains of BT30-17 but please remember that the chassis plate is being used on another frame in the genuine belief that the original chassis is redundant.

Sometime between 1971 & 1996 the bent chassis is taken to Switzerland.

By 1996 it is after all worth repairing.

All the parts are bought or have been bought, radiator, suspension, shocks, wheels, steering rack, instruments, bodywork , engine & gearbox.

The chassis is returned to the UK for the second time, still bent, where Coombs alterations are removed, and all the new parts assembled. The car then runs for the first time since 1971 as BT30-17 but without the chassis plate to say so.
-------------------
Now this is where I need some help. My memory of carnets is that they can list all identifying chassis marks on them. Its possible that the carnet for BT30-17 had the AM number as well. So;

1.Does the new BT36 chassis carry the same AM numbers as the first BT30 chassis?

2. What Coombs alterations are you referring to?

3. Who has the chassis plate BT30-17, Silvio Moser’s widow?

4. How did the bent frame of BT30-17 get to your friend in Switzerland?

5. Without a chassis plate, how is it possible to know that the BT30 chassis that Bob Baker now owns in the States is the bent one that Beat returned in ’71?

[Andrew Fellowes]

Another Quote from Beat that shows as far he was concerned there only ever was one car.

“Some were can help my, for the full history of the Brabham BT30 – 17 formula 2.
I have it’s retired by Brabham 1971 with a new Cosworth FVA engine.
After the Imola practise crash, for a bad tyre, we changed the bend frame always with a BT36 type (by Brabham), but still with the original number (custom).
I don’t remember on how we sold the car, on the end of the season.
Must by the car used by Jack Brabham and Jackie Stewart in the 1970 season.”

So, to all those wiser than me in these things, Is the discarded frame still a car?

[Ted Walker]

This is getting out of hand.BT36-11 was inspected last night by its new owner.He reported back to me with the Arch Motors No.The AM Nos on BT36s are in a totally different sequence to other cars.He was worried when he read it out as "its not the same as our BT30". The No he read out was the COrrect one for his BT36. There is no other number stamped anywhere else he could find.A lot of BT30s were called BT30/36 because of the rule change regarding cockpit widths brought for 1971. This meant that if you raced in Int F2 you had to fit a BT36 cockpit top. When I bought my BT30-16 It still had its 36 top on it.

[Roger H]

You had more chance of an entry and you also received more start money if you turned up with a 'this years ' car. Remember the race organisers didn't checked chassis numbers in period. Other than usual scrutineering (which by the way was often unusual!!) there were no checks.

[allenbrown]

Ted

I'm baffled by this, mainly because I haven't memorised everything on the preceding five pages. So do we now have both BT36-11 and BT30-17: two separate cars owned by seprate people in 2003? And do both show physical signs of being genuine original cars? If so, are we summising that the original BT30-17 frame was repaired and sold out the back door of MRD?

Allen

[Bryan Miller]

Ted.
What do you mean when you say the AM no.is in a different sequence to the others ?
I know what BT35-8's AM no. is , and also BT30/36 BT30-27.

If I understand correctly , it appears that Moser's car was stuffed and they recieved on Ron T's advice a BT36 frame to rebuild their BT30-17 , however to ''assist '' in border crossing the car was retained on it's original carnet, and as the Swiss Customs people were more diligent than others , that there may have been some numbers supplied to help.

We have two scenarios available here, and the simple answer lies in finding out if the whole damaged BT30-17 returned to the works in the U.K. or if a new BT36 chassis and presumably other lesser components were dispatched to Moser in Switzerland.

If the former , there is no way the old dead chassis is going to return to Switzerland , as it would complicate customs.
AM numbers were put on by Arch Motors not Brabhams , so did Mosers mechanics add another number elsewhere to assist customs entry , because we know the AM no. on the BT30 is going to be AM70-?, and the AM no. on the 36 is going to be AM71-?, and that is not going to be helpful at the border.

As we appear to have one BT30 dead , and a BT36 , with it's own number i.e , BT36-11 , and recorded as such by F1R , which is used to rebuild the dead BT30 , really one assumes BT30 ceased to exist at that point in time, and BT36-11 took over.

Therefore at what point in time did BT30 resurface and under what circumstances.
Only two scenarios are poss. , out the back door from Brabhams in 1971 , if the car was rebuilt by them, and I for one would love to see a verifyable trail on that.
Or the BT36 new chassis was sent to Switzerland and the dead BT30 lay doggo for an indeterminate length of time and then resurfaces, surely at that point only a rusty chassis.
I would love to see a verifyable trail on that as well , but more importantly what are the AM numbers on both these cars, as I don't understand your reference to a different sequence.

In regard to the body panels , that is why at the start of this thread I expanded on that , as it was always going to complicate matters.

Andrew.
To answer your question , re. the frame , in OZ apart from one memorable stuff-up , the old dead frame is no more than another consumed component , along with wheels brake pads , uprights , and everything else that has either worn out or been crash damaged.

Beat says that after Imola the new frame was in the car , but always with the old number , not according to F1R.
Rouen 27-6-1971 , Moser has BT30-17 , and is on the grid.
Imola 25-7-1971 , Moser has BT36-11, but does not start due to crash.
Entered for Mantorp Park , but dns , car not ready, HOWEVER , car entered as BT30 .
At Tulln , dns , car not ready , but entered as BT36.

At Albi , on the grid , but did not qualify , but F1R records as BT36-11, also at Hochenheim, and at Vallelunga, 10-10-1971 and 17-10-1971.

F1R is saying at Imola Moser already had BT36-11 , is this a serious typo , or did Moser have two cars the old BT30-17 , and the BT36-11 and damaged BT30-17 , and Ron replaced that with a BT36 chassis into the BT30-17 , by the sound of it , Moser was struggling to pay for the new chassis and bits , so unlikely he had two, therefore F1R may be wrong.

Something is all wrong here.

Bryan.

[allenbrown]

F1R's Imola info must surely be wrong. Either that or Beat's story is completely wrong.

Allen

[Ted Walker]

Quite right Allen as Id been trying to say. Ive seen both cars in the flesh. A BT36 Chassis is NOTHING like a BT30 frame. The 36 chassis has its correct arch motors number and so has BT30-17. The BT30 chassis when blasted showed no signs of MAJOR repair work and certainly did not have plated top tubes and provision for in board rear brakes as a BT36.

[Ted Walker]

Brian the AM NO on a BT36 is not AM71- Something thats what I mean by a special sequence of numbers. Its AM SOMETHING-71 I suppose arch motors must have had a "new man" on the stamps that week !!!!!

[Andrew Fellowes]

Ok now this may go part way to an answer.

Beat has told me today that the car they bent at Imola was a BT36 but with BT30-7 chassis plate and number stamped into it.

Ted your comment that BT30-17 had no signs of damage would support this.

They took the bent BT36 frame back to the UK where Tauranac said it wasn't worth repairing and sold them another.

So, given this update it now looks as though 30-17 was retired at some point in '71 and for customs the idendity put on the new BT36. This new BT36 is then crashed and replaced with another 36 chassis, both running under the original carnet for 30-17.

Beat finishes by saying they never raced a BT36 with a BT36 plate on it. They always used the 30 plate. Thats not what the press reported, but the paperwork used for the race entry might not been the same as used for border crossing especially if there was a financial insentive to enter it as a 36.

Did chassis numbers get checked at the the race track by the race organisers to see if it matched the paperwork?

The press after all would have been given the list of entries by the race organisers.

I am well out of my depths now, can anyone add to this?

footnote, There must have been a point where 30-17 is recorded by Swiss customs with a double entry. Maybe they did not cross check such things. I know I did this once with a carnet without any resulting problems.

[Ted Walker]

Hooray ,Hooray,I hate to say Itold you so.......Sanity is alive and well and living in AUSTRALIA .Whats next ????

[Andrew Fellowes]

OK, OK,

but I am very pleased that we have revealed a bit more history that could so easily have been lost.

Whats next??? -a very large Jack Daniels & coke for me thanks

[Bryan Miller]

BT30-17.

1 . Entered for Mallory Pk. no ch. no. report as car not back from Bogota.
2 . Hockenheim , Moser reported in ex John Coombs/Mike Goth BT30 , did not appear , car not ready.
3 . Thruxton , as above.
4 . Pau , did not start , did not enter.
5 . Nurburgring , as above.
6 . Jarama , ent. reported as BT30-17 , 1.29.4 , 9th finish.
Report of above entries states, Moser in Swiss Jolly Club recently acquired ex.-John Coombs/Jackie Stewart/Jack Brabham/Mike Goth BT30-17. ''Big Silv''has acquired considerable sponsorshp from Marlboro Cigarettes and the car is now turned out in a violent shade of emerald green.
7 . London Trophy , Crystal Palace , heat 1 50.0 , Brabham-FVA BT30-71, not my typo.
Heat 1 , 1st. Moser . push started in final and finished 7th.
8 . Vallelunga , BT30-17[ F1R], BT30 Autosport.
In practice Moser lost it[ poss. gearbox lockup] at 140 mph , bounced along the Armco and came to rest with the chassis badly tweaked at the back, did not start.
9 . Monza , BT30-17 [F1R] BT30 Autosport , DNQ.
10 . Rouen , Autosport BT30/17 , FIR BT30-17, Moser in heat 2, 10th., F1R say 11th.
Strangly no report in either of Moser in final , or why he dns , he had two stops for eng. problems in his heat, so perhaps could not fix.
11 . Imola , Autosport entry , Moser in his BT36 with Novamotor mill, F1R Brabham BT36 - BT36-11.
''Moser went quite well on Friday morning at 1.39.17 , but completely lost it during the afternoon session in the long lefthander after the pits and quite wrote off the BT36 which is almost becoming a habit with him.''
12 . Mantorp Park ent. in BT30 , but car not repaired [ F1R] , no report in Autosport.
13 . Tulln-Langenlebarn.
Ent. as BT36 , car not ready F1R. Autosport report Moser did not arrive as his new BT36 is not ready yet.
14 . Albi, Autosport report Moser's transporter broke down for the final BT36[11] entered , and he missed 1st. practice. F1R report car as BT36-11 .
15 . Hockenheim , F1R Brabham BT36 , BT36-11.
Autosport , Moser bought along his Nova powered BT36, finished 4th. BT36 - Moser.
16 . Vallelunga , F1R Brabham BT36-11. Autosport reports other BT36's for Peter Westbury and Silvio Moser.
17 . Vallelunga , 1 week later , F1R Brabham BT36 , BT36-11.
Autosport say the only other BT36 was for Silvio Moser entered by Jolly Club .
18 . Interlagos , car ent. as Brabham BT36 , but car did not arrive , as driver resting.


As I said earlier somethings not right.

Bryan.

[Ted Walker]

I have photographs I took of Moser at C Palace in June 71 in the BT30 with 36 Top and all the stewart Mods.

[allenbrown]

I wonder if he bent the BT30 at Rouen. Ted - do your MNs make any mention of him?

Or maybe it was just time for a new car.

Allen

[Ted Walker]

Lottery GP monza June 17th ish. "Moser had stuck his ex Coombs BT30 back together after itspractice shunt at Rome due to a broken rose joint in the rear upright" M News.

[Andrew Fellowes]

So, the calander looked like this????

May 16th Jarama, BT30
May 31st Crystal Palace BT30
June 13th Vallelunga BT30 accident
June 20th Monza BT30
June 27th Rouen BT30
July 25th Imola BT36 accident
August 8th Mantrop BT30 did not arrive
August 22nd Kinnekullering -
August 30th Brands Hatch -
September 12th Tulln-Langenlebarn BT36 did not arrive
September 26th Albi BT36
October 3rd Hockenheimring BT36
October 10th Vallelunga BT36
October 17th Vallelunga BT36

BT30-17, Last race, Rouen, June 27th, 1971
5 races in total.

BT36-11 Mk1, 1st Race (& last) Imola, July 25th 1971
Imola seems late in the year to get a new car, but if money was not an issue why not. (There was only one more chassis built after 36-11.)

BT36-11 Mk2, 1st Race, Albi, September 26th 1971
(4 races)

Thats 10 races Moser went to in 71 which is only 3 less than Schenken. Have I missed any?