Who agrees with Mike Cotton?

[tlracing]

Originally Posted by eddsc

... make them all different.

As long as they're not less than THREE hours

[renkadima]

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

I watched the Silverstone GT race recently and was amazed at the lack of spectators. I did attend the '96 race (I think) when the heavens opened and there were many thousands there.

It sems to me that dumbing it down has actually lost, rather than gained, support.

I could be totally wrong here, but in my humble opinion the reason why that race attracted so many spectators was almost entirely down to BBC2. Seriously.

At the time there was a program on that channel called Top Gear Motorsport, and Tiff Needell's adventures in the BPRO featured prominently. The program attracted healthy audiences and I'm convinced that that is why so many attended. The race highlights were, by necessity, brief (in a 30 minute show), but viewers could see just how fantastic the cars were.

So what's changed?

Back then the internet was in its infancy, as was satellite TV, and user numbers were miniscule. The four terrestrial channels still ruled the roost, and Autosport and MN were the main way of keeping tabs on the sport.

Today, we have a gazillion websites, hundreds of TV channels to choose from, and the printed press is feeling the pinch. In short, there is little education going on, and 'preaching to the converted' is the main business model.

The only constant has been F1 and that is because of its lengthy heritage. If terrestrial TV stopped showing it, only the committed would pay to watch. Broadcast rights for all sports have shot up and the terrestrial channels are content to let satellite have motorsport.

Let's face it; if you don't already know what the FIA GT Championship or the LMS is, then you are unlikely to find out. But if those people who do know about it are lost, then what is the point?

I'm pretty sure that a regular feature on a prime-time terrestrial TV show would boost the attendance for any form of motorsport. But that kind of exposure is a thing of the past.

Am I wrong?

[tlracing]

Originally Posted by renkadima

In short, there is little education going on, and 'preaching to the converted' is the main business model.

I think this is the essential problem in publicising anything other than F1 - it is too easy for those who promote the events to direct their efforts only towards specialist media. Before the fragmentation you describe, there was a need to 'go out there and sell' in order to reach anyone other than specialist press readers.

So, would regular prime-time coverage help? Yes, but...

...it has to be done to leave people wanting more, rather than doing the opposite and giving them enough not to warrant actually going to a race.

It also needs teams & drivers to be far more publically accessible - something which, with a few notable exceptions, seems a thing of the past. Getting race-cars on display in shopping centres, car showrooms, in fact anywhere the 'man-in-the-street' is going to have contact.

[FIRE]

Originally Posted by renkadima

Am I wrong?

IMO not



I would prefer ten 500 km LMS races over the current six 1000 km races. Currently the LMS consists out of six races but I have not the feeling it's a real championship. For me it are six independent races. Besides that a race of six hour isn't suited for TV.

[eddsc]

Brilliant - you've just proposed that LMS becomes ten 3 hour races.. that sounds awfully like something else that once was...

[Peter Mallett]

I speak as an outsider to Sports Racing these days and so I haven't followed the whole saga. But I do notice how different it isd and one thing that really irks me, as a driver and a spectator is the insistence that the must be pit stps. That suggests that the pit stop itself is the controlling issue.

In the "glory days" of Group C the pits stops were dictated by the car (problems excepted), so it was difficult to determine when cars would stop. Likewise fuel strategies came in to play much more than now.

So, I still advocate a return to 1000kms races.

Likewise the return to privateers would be a great boost to the category.

[T600]

Interesting topic...

Personally I am attending as many sports car races in the UK as possible at the moment and loving every minute!
Fia GT, LMS, at least 4 BGT rounds and the Open GT at Brands, plus Britcar/Britsports and more.
If this is a poor time in the history of sportscar racing you aren't looking hard enough.
Looks like a mini boom to come with Peugeot v Audi. Live televised coverage of events from Europe, USA and Japan - who can complain. And they are even running Group C cars again with TV coverage.

After following and attending sportscar racing events since pre-Group C days, believe me this can be classed as a fabulous time for sports cars. I too am a great believer in 'endurance' races and missed greatly the 1000kms events when they finished. Today we have the best of both worlds so enjoy it while it lasts. This sport always seems to run in cycles, so it will probably change again in a few years, but I enjoy watching a field of privateers as much as a field of works teams - it's still sportscar racing and that's what matters.

Geoff

[canam]

Originally Posted by FIRE

I would prefer ten 500 km LMS races over the current six 1000 km races. Currently the LMS consists out of six races but I have not the feeling it's a real championship. For me it are six independent races. Besides that a race of six hour isn't suited for TV.

I think the organisers would struggle to get the top circuits in Europe. You tend to run out pretty quickly once you get past six or seven. Running the risk of being flamed, here goes: Monza, Spa, Silverstone, Nurburgring, Barcelona, Magny Cours and then what??? Brno, Istanbul (yuch), Zandwort (good but with noise issues and dangerous), Brands GP (noise issues). FIAGT has found the same problems; hence these trips to 'wierd and wonderful places'. Other realistic suggestions??

From a team's perspective, the transport budgets would also rocket.

In terms of race length for TV, there are many other sports that get a combination of live and satellite coverage yet go on for days. Golf is a prime example. I think the promoters need to think a bit more laterally.

[AU N EGL]

Does not TV coverage depend on the PROMTER, ADVERTISING revinew, ( which is a strong demographic audience to SELL products too) to PREPAY for the TV coverage, which would take a specialty Sports TV promtion company.

Longer races are more exciting, but much more expesive to promote and put on TV. Where the 2 or 3 hour TV limit, with Video delay the start to show the first hours highlights, then the last hour live.

Golf is in a totally differnt leauge and maket. Many many ppl PLAY golf, more business deals are done on the Golf course then in the office or sales room.

Golf is BIG business for more ppl and companies then motor racing.

We did a thead a while ago where the average sponsor in motorracing will put on $1.6 dollars to ADDITIONAL marketing, promotion and support for their company over and above evey $1 dollar that goes to the team.

So if a race team has a $1,000,000 sponsorship from XYZ company, XYZ company will spend an additional $1,600,000 on supportive marketing and in return is looking for a 7 to 10 fold ROI or up to $26,000,000 is sales revenew back to XYZ Company to justify spending $1,000,000 on a race team.

Why is this important? Race promotors know this and build a event paddock and support for SPONOSORS and Sponsors guests and clients as will as the average spectator ( punter).

The average punter ( spectator) gate ticket does not pay for nor support the race promotors budget. Those gate recipets are just extra. Normally the race track gets the gate recipts and income not the race promotor.

So YES we would LOVE longer races, but longer races may not be finacially a good idea for Promotors and sponsors ROI and bottom line.

Personally for my little racing 50 min is all I can do. Most of the my races are 20 to 40 min.

I find 50 min races very hard on equimpent. Longer races means large pit crews ( big expense even if they volunteer, I have to feed, house and transport these great ppl to the race) to handle tire changes and the big one, re-fueling. I can find ppl to help with pit crew to change tires and work on the car, but re-fueling? no one will touch that one, even refueling the car in the paddock, ppl wont do that so I do that myself.

Long races are great to watch, but bloody expesive to run as a team.

[duke_toaster]

Originally Posted by JAG

Other than F1, mainstream TV wants 40 minute sprints, then they may drop you at any given time, just look at the way the BTCC is shoved around the schedules

It's a shame how ITV are abusing the BTCC. The three times 25 mins format is good for tourers, the racing is some of the best around but then they shunt it to ITV3 for the first half of the season for what promised to be (and is) a classic year! If anything, Alan Gow should consider giving the all three races live rights to ITV for zilch for a year on only one condition - they must be shown on ITV1 on non-F1 weekends.

It seems like British GT has a good idea for National GTs- Two one hour races with a mandatory pit stop for a driver change.

However, GT cars have a trump card - they can race in the evenings without floodlights perfectly well and it's been done for ages.

This could cause ressie issues (don't get me started, all sport should have noise law exemption), but what about a 2 hour race on Saturday evenings and a longer race (3:30) on Sunday?

[JAG]

Originally Posted by old man

This is the LMS, seems to be working well but Cotton is arguing that we need to do away with the 2 pit stop rule, we all seem to agree so the logic is that if FIA is to be different from the LMS a 2 hour blind with just the one stop is what it would become. I think that would be won by single driver pro's unless the rule book said 2 drivers. A pro doing a 2 hour sprint is an endurance driver in my book, some of them can't do a 1 hour stint at present if its hot. And 3 drivers in 3 hours also cannot be described as "endurance" driving

I'm coming to the conclusion there is no market for FIA GT, at least with GT1/GT2 cars.

If you want shorter races the only option is GT3 type cars with 3-4 sprint races over a weekend, some klind of qualification/knock out system.

The big money is slowly moving to the LMS, yet FIA GT is increasingly moving to a format which encourages professional driver line-up's.

Who expects Vitaphone to stick around once the Maserati program comes to an end (end of 2008 if not sooner), I personally believe they'll run and Audi or Porsche LMP some day. If Aston do eventualy build an LMP1 Coupe will current customers follow the factory or switch to another GT1 manufactuer?

IMO, FIA GT has to appeal to amateur drivers and smaller teams, GT3 is the only option.

[JAG]

Originally Posted by T600

Interesting topic...

Personally I am attending as many sports car races in the UK as possible at the moment and loving every minute!
Fia GT, LMS, at least 4 BGT rounds and the Open GT at Brands, plus Britcar/Britsports and more.
If this is a poor time in the history of sportscar racing you aren't looking hard enough.
Looks like a mini boom to come with Peugeot v Audi. Live televised coverage of events from Europe, USA and Japan - who can complain. And they are even running Group C cars again with TV coverage.

After following and attending sportscar racing events since pre-Group C days, believe me this can be classed as a fabulous time for sports cars. I too am a great believer in 'endurance' races and missed greatly the 1000kms events when they finished. Today we have the best of both worlds so enjoy it while it lasts. This sport always seems to run in cycles, so it will probably change again in a few years, but I enjoy watching a field of privateers as much as a field of works teams - it's still sportscar racing and that's what matters.

Geoff

I totally agree.

I started attending races live in the early 90's, it was desperate for a sportscar fan.

The downside to this growth we now see is the need for consolidation.

At the top of the tree we have the LMS and ALMS, the re-emergence of protoype racing has left FIA GT in no mans land.

National series have shown the way with GT3's, and after watching them first hand they're far better than expected. FIA GT need's to position itself as a European Championship for GT3, retain a core of 35-40 cars, plus another 15-20 cars from national series taking in their local round.

You'll then have a clear ladder without treading on anyones toes.

[T600]

I agree that the FIA GT has now seemingly backed itself into a corner. The current format doesn't work as a sprint because of the stupid 2 stop rule and it's too short for an endurance race. The only reason I attended the Silverstone round was that I love the cars! The racing very much comes second at the moment.

I can't see how it can now become a GT3 championship though because the FIA have already got their new all-singing series for multi-car teams. Are they now just going to call this the FIA GT Championship?

It really looks like (the current) GT1 has come to the end of its life but I really hope there is a series with decent GT2 and GT3 fields a la GT Open.

Personally I am also unsatisfied with the constant rule changing - why teams bother to develop a car is a mystery when the organisers then give a performance break to the opposition. It just doesn't make sense.

At least we still have the pure 1000kms to look forward to, and I agree that the BGT has been a great success this year with another new marque winning yesterday. Now if we could only get a round of the French series at Brands...

[old man]

What I read here is a constant re-inventing of the LMS, that is not broke - don't fix it

The FIA is in need of attention mainly, in my opinion, in the removal of the 2 pit stop rule, if you do that and rule that there must be 2 drivers you will have 2 hour versions of the British GT races of the late 90's that were some of the best races in BGT for years IMO, set the minimum time for a driver at 40 minutes and you will get some excellent racing giving gentlemen a chance pay and play. No artificial pit stop length so that tyre choice and fuel strategy come into the equation and you have something that could be very interesting.

What you must do is tell the public what is happening be it before the event, at the circuit or on TV otherwise how can they be interested.

[T600]

'What I read here is a constant re-inventing of the LMS, that is not broke - don't fix it'

I agree 100%.

LMS and 1000kms races are sportscar racing, the other categories fill the gaps between races.

[The Badger]

[QUOTE=T600]Personally I am also unsatisfied with the constant rule changing QUOTE]

I couldnt agree more ..... its always been the achilles heel of sportscar racing through out the world .

I dont blame the manufacturers for staying away . No sooner does it appears there is a solid base of rules , there is yet another change yet again !!!

[Tim the Grey]

Thank Bernie for that one...
Nothing will threaten the Holy cash Cow that is F1.

[minimangler]

Originally Posted by Tim the Grey

Thank Bernie for that one...
Nothing will threaten the Holy cash Cow that is F1.

Agreed.
If Sportscars get too good (see group c) then bernie messes it about (see group c).

[JAG]

These days they have less power thanks to EU competition regulations, even more so when a series is not an FIA Championship, i.e. the LMS.

[old man]

Unless I am mistaken ALL international series, certainly in Europe are sanctioned by the FIA and the LMS is no exception. I think we should not be confused by the term FIA GT championship, do not the rules for the Le Mans race itself and for the LMS have to have FIA (World Council?) approval?

Is it not that the National Sanctioning body for a race meeting, if it is a member of the FIA, must have all the races in turn sanctioned by the FIA?

If that is so you can't "keep the FIA out of it". I believe the FIA chmpionships are so called because the FIA award the title and trophies/prizes, FIA F1, FIA World Rally, FIA GT etc

Can rules specialists please clarify the situation for me?

[The Badger]

Well as far as I know ..... Le Mans is a sanctioned track , but to do that they had to screw it up by adding 2 chicanes on the Mulsanne ..... that was crap !!!

I reckon the Fia are pretty crap when making their rules , after all its the drivers who have to put their arse in the seat and are almost never asked for input .

[HORNDAWG]

Originally Posted by old man

Unless I am mistaken ALL international series, certainly in Europe are sanctioned by the FIA and the LMS is no exception. I think we should not be confused by the term FIA GT championship, do not the rules for the Le Mans race itself and for the LMS have to have FIA (World Council?) approval?

Is it not that the National Sanctioning body for a race meeting, if it is a member of the FIA, must have all the races in turn sanctioned by the FIA?

If that is so you can't "keep the FIA out of it". I believe the FIA chmpionships are so called because the FIA award the title and trophies/prizes, FIA F1, FIA World Rally, FIA GT etc

Can rules specialists please clarify the situation for me?

Yes FIA is the Int'l sanctioning body. From my understanding of it (and I may well be wrong) FIA in that sense is more of an umbrella sanction, such as general safety regs and such. More on the lines of Macro management not Micro management. FIA does not really have a lot to say about specific rules in a series or race.

L.P.

[JAG]

Originally Posted by old man

Unless I am mistaken ALL international series, certainly in Europe are sanctioned by the FIA and the LMS is no exception. I think we should not be confused by the term FIA GT championship, do not the rules for the Le Mans race itself and for the LMS have to have FIA (World Council?) approval?

They have a say on safety aspects and standards but not specific rules.

The LMS also has greater independance from the FIA by running as a series and not a championship.

[Mal]

I think LMS has the format right, although a couple of additional races with maybe 3 hours races and a season finale of a 10 hour race would add to it. THe problem is getting the message accross to the public.

In order to get good TV coverage and good sponsorship the series has to be seen by someone, otherwise their is no target audience other than from within the sport itself.

I have said before the the LMS weekend should be run as a big sports and classic car festival, much as Le Mans and Le Mans classic now is. However lemans has evolved naturally over 75 years so in order to avoid the LMS races taking the same time to develop then it will need some proper input and promotion.

[SebringMG]

Agree with Mal on the majority of his points and add another.....why not add a couple of 'sprint' races for emerging markets ?
Only in Europe i am thinking - besides F1 will lose a few european races so they can go to dubai, singapore etc.....is it time to aggressively go after those markets they leave behind with 2hr45 ALMS style sprints ? Almost demonstration races.....then maybe in further years they could run the full 1000km races.