Porsche Confirms New 911 RSR GTE Car for 2017

[Pole2Win]

Originally Posted by carbsmith

They've kept it a 4L NA flat 6 because nothing but a flat 6 will fit in the car and GTE has not allowed turbocharged engines. The problem is the engine has been carried over from the previous car for several years despite being behind the development curve to start with.

The info I had was that turbo was allowed but they had to use stock turbo from the road car, which defeated the point.

The road GT3 RS 4.0 already has 500 hp, that's 125 hp/liter from a naturally aspirated engine. They've pushed the envelope as far as they could with the flat-6, and that was the old Mezger (though the new 9A1 also generates 500 hp). Of course, they might not need any more improvement in GTE as the other cars are toned down from street spec.

[Spyderman]

Originally Posted by Pole2Win

The info I had was that turbo was allowed but they had to use stock turbo from the road car, which defeated the point.

That and the fact that the settings (bar) on the turbo as per the regs, rendered them noncompetitive.

Originally Posted by Pole2Win

The road GT3 RS 4.0 already has 500 hp, that's 125 hp/liter from a naturally aspirated engine. They've pushed the envelope as far as they could with the flat-6, and that was the old Mezger (though the new 9A1 also generates 500 hp). Of course, they might not need any more improvement in GTE as the other cars are toned down from street spec.

The RSR has been restricted to around 475 bhp.

[porman]

Originally Posted by carbsmith

They've kept it a 4L NA flat 6 because nothing but a flat 6 will fit in the car and GTE has not allowed turbocharged engines. The problem is the engine has been carried over from the previous car for several years despite being behind the development curve to start with.

C6.R was fully able to beat the 458 straight up before all this BoP nonsense started and the current C7.R is way more car than it was at the time, I don't understand why anyone would think it's a weaker than the Ferrari.

The real problem lies in marketing. Porsche was going to kill off the 911 with the 928 sometime ago as they thought that was where the future lye. The purists as some would put it were outraged, (I love the 911 too incidentally). The 911 has a sort of heritage to it now, and in that Porsche faces a real double-edged sword. There's a reason the GT-1 was mid-engined, Porsche is not naive. The BOP however is another issue. It would seem, at least for the time being that the idea of not having the 911 compete in GT racing would be admitting that their baby isn't competitive.


On a separate note... a flat 8 will fit as well, but the purists would scream. Ruf has already done it.

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by porman

The real problem lies in marketing. Porsche was going to kill off the 911 with the 928 sometime ago as they thought that was where the future lye. The purists as some would put it were outraged, (I love the 911 too incidentally). The 911 has a sort of heritage to it now, and in that Porsche faces a real double-edged sword. There's a reason the GT-1 was mid-engined, Porsche is not naive. The BOP however is another issue. It would seem, at least for the time being that the idea of not having the 911 compete in GT racing would be admitting that their baby isn't competitive.


On a separate note... a flat 8 will fit as well, but the purists would scream. Ruf has already done it.

I agree with what you are saying, but one minor correction, Ruf successfully put a V8 in the 911 body and not a flat eight. It was of their own design and was a 4.5L unit. I remember reading an article about that engine years ago and how even with the V design, it had a lower center of gravity than the flat six when you included all of the ancillaries! The point being it can be done properly, but due to tradition/heritage issue Porsche will likely always stay with a flat engine in the 911 road car.

Richard

[carbsmith]

Well "the flat-6" rather than "a flat-6" really, obviously the 912 existed among other things but as far as existing options go they can't just chuck a Cayenne engine in there like a DP.

I'm not sure it's fair to complain about Porsche racing the car in the place the 911 is in their model lineup at this level. I mean Ferrari's GT1 homologation model was actually significantly slower than their GT2 and the same probably applied to the DB9.

[Deleted]

Originally Posted by carbsmith

C6.R was fully able to beat the 458 straight up before all this BoP nonsense started and the current C7.R is way more car than it was at the time, I don't understand why anyone would think it's a weaker than the Ferrari.

(This post is not biased towards Ferrari, as anyone with my history of rooting for Corvette in the past knows)

BUT

If the C7.R is such a beast against the 458, why does it need big air restrictor breaks, fuel restrictor breaks, bigger fuel tank, and aero bop allowances, while the 458 gets nothing (aco trim) and can still match and beat it?

As for C6.R GT2, by 2011-12 it had already started gaining relatively significant breaks, as opposed to 2010 when they actually had overweight and other stuff. They certainly had made bigger voice in front of the committees, which would only escolate further for 2012-13 and C7.R. And the alleged waiver list was quite big when it was introduced, I don't recall the number RLM said at the time but it was long. For 2009 when the ALMS GT2 hadn't quite sunken yet to the full realm of this (although the homologation of BMW M3 was the start of it) the new car was good wout of shelf without too many breaks that I know of, however they we're still allowed to run with the over 6 liter engine which aided their way.

Anyway, it's still the second best package out there. And at least they never got waivers for bigger engines, unlike Viper which was travesty. Especially considering their prebop base restrictors we're also bigger than for 5,5 liter Corvette.

At least Ferrari AND Corvette still make effort by trying. And looks like Ford too? Porsche sort of but not particularly. Aston zero...

[TF110]

Why should they? Especially when the rules allow you to run old cars with updates and be competitive. As a manufacturer why would you waste the money for a brand new road car to serve as your base for a race car? It makes no sense unless the car is so old that its time has come or there are brand new rules. Aston are finally going to make a new Vantage (or car to replace it) in a couple years. Until then, the current cars like the Vantage and 911 do just fine inside the rules.

[porman]

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

I agree with what you are saying, but one minor correction, Ruf successfully put a V8 in the 911 body and not a flat eight. It was of their own design and was a 4.5L unit. I remember reading an article about that engine years ago and how even with the V design, it had a lower center of gravity than the flat six when you included all of the ancillaries! The point being it can be done properly, but due to tradition/heritage issue Porsche will likely always stay with a flat engine in the 911 road car.

Richard

You are obviously right. I don't know why I put flat-8. Porsche also utilized an Audi V-8 in a test mule that looked somewhat like a 993 with a 959 rear end. I honestly think they should have done more than one TAG-turbo engined 911. I thought about doing it years ago with a partial engine I have, but it would have proved a nightmare to source all the parts and get it going properly.

[Pole2Win]

Originally Posted by porman

You are obviously right. I don't know why I put flat-8. Porsche also utilized an Audi V-8 in a test mule that looked somewhat like a 993 with a 959 rear end. I honestly think they should have done more than one TAG-turbo engined 911. I thought about doing it years ago with a partial engine I have, but it would have proved a nightmare to source all the parts and get it going properly.

Are you speaking of the 969? That one was supposed to be the "upscale" model to compete with Ferrari. It would replace the 930 but was scrapped because of the economic climate, so they made the 964 Turbo instead.

It would also use a twin turbo flat-6 rated at 360 hp, not a V8.

[Deleted]

Originally Posted by TF110

Why should they? Especially when the rules allow you to run old cars with updates and be competitive. As a manufacturer why would you waste the money for a brand new road car to serve as your base for a race car? It makes no sense unless the car is so old that its time has come or there are brand new rules. Aston are finally going to make a new Vantage (or car to replace it) in a couple years. Until then, the current cars like the Vantage and 911 do just fine inside the rules.

Yes as I implied on previous posts, it's a double edged sword and Aston & Porsche might be the wisest of the bunch, relatively speaking

[Pole2Win]

Originally Posted by Chiana

Yes as I implied on previous posts, it's a double edged sword and Aston & Porsche might be the wisest of the bunch, relatively speaking

Yep. IIRC Aston doesn't have big money behind it anymore. The crisis and failure of prototype program did a fair bit to them. If BOP keeps their cars fast enough, they can win if they swarm the field with entries and rely on attrition.

[Deleted]

The Vantage GT2 (2008-) is almost as old as Saleen S7-R was when it was retired (2000-2010), but at least the Saleen hadn't been run by factory team for ages at that point... if ever really

[porman]

Originally Posted by Pole2Win

Are you speaking of the 969? That one was supposed to be the "upscale" model to compete with Ferrari. It would replace the 930 but was scrapped because of the economic climate, so they made the 964 Turbo instead.

It would also use a twin turbo flat-6 rated at 360 hp, not a V8.

Wasn't my intention to digress, but yes that was what I was referring to. The car tested with multiple engines, the Audi unit was one of them.

[DistortedSmile]

Originally Posted by Chiana

The Vantage GT2 (2008-) is almost as old as Saleen S7-R was when it was retired (2000-2010), but at least the Saleen hadn't been run by factory team for ages at that point... if ever really

I was under the impression that the Vantage GTE was a different car, or at least significantly upgraded from the GT2.

[Deleted]

Originally Posted by DistortedSmile

I was under the impression that the Vantage GTE was a different car, or at least significantly upgraded from the GT2.

No it's the same exact thing, they just made some mild cosmetic surgery for it when the factory abandoned AMR-One and started running it by themselves instead of the privateers. Initially it even received identical BoP breaks

[TF110]

Its not the exact same car. If it was it'd be left behind even with the bop. Look at the Jaguar as an example. AM/Prodrive know how to make race cars and its a disservice to them to say they have only done "mild cosmetic surgery".

[Deleted]

Originally Posted by TF110

Its not the exact same car. If it was it'd be left behind even with the bop. Look at the Jaguar as an example. AM/Prodrive know how to make race cars and its a disservice to them to say they have only done "mild cosmetic surgery".

The XKR GT2 was total garbage, and Rocketsports an amateur Trans-Am hobby team managing it. Equipped with slow Yokohama tires. There was never hope for that combo. And it never got huge bop breaks due to the lack of direct OEM power like the other makes, IIRC the only things it got were big air restrictors (which did give it good straight line speed, though for no effect). But even if they had been gifted, it wouldn't have helped to make differences. Look at AJR Lotus Evora with it's 125?kg weight breaks and other nonsense, yet still ending up last.

I'm not saying the Vantage is as bad as those two (or the terrible GT2 conversion of the GT3 Lambo Gallardo), I mean even in the pre-WEC days I seem to remember privateers getting some podium(s?) with it. But we have to realize that now this is factory operation with factory drivers and huge politics power behind it. With those even a turd car can do it. And finally, the BoP landscape has greatly intensified since the likes of Jag roamed.

They had to do some mods for 2012 to save off face when "downgrading" classes, and they had to mod the thing now for 2016 because ACO said so. But it's the same basic car from 2008.

[Graham Goodwin]

Originally Posted by Chiana

No it's the same exact thing, they just made some mild cosmetic surgery for it when the factory abandoned AMR-One and started running it by themselves instead of the privateers. Initially it even received identical BoP breaks

Sorry Chiana but I believe that is fundamentally incorrect - there are massive differences between the early GT2 spec V8 Vantage GT2s and the current spec GTEs.

My understanding is that it is a large enough difference that you can't upgrade one to the other - chassis differences plus completely new roll cage, relocated fuel cell, revised engine plus a myriad of detail differences.

The revised car for 2016 features not only the mahoosive rear diffuser but an all new body too (it is a 12 hour job to convert a 2015 car to 2016 spec)

A couple of archive features to explain some of the year on year detail changes - from 2013 and 2012

http://www.dailysportscar.com/2013/0...ntage-gte.html

http://archive2.dailysportscar.com/v...90B7723764EF6B

[MaskedRacer]

Of the full season Porsche North american drivers I think Bamber, Tandy, and Pilet were fantastic. Do you think then that Jorg Bergmeister is the weak link?

[Spyderman]

sorry! Wrong thread.

[WolfsburgRS]

Originally Posted by MaskedRacer

Of the full season Porsche North american drivers I think Bamber, Tandy, and Pilet were fantastic. Do you think then that Jorg Bergmeister is the weak link?

While Jorg is probably not as fast as he once was he is still quick, reliable and hungry for wins. I've heard from a friend who works on the team he is very particular about cars and car set up, and will be around for some time working in the development of the younger factory Porsche drivers. I think his tenure, experience and all the "other stuff" he brings to the team outside of pure speed is worth his being there. I'm sure at some point he'll transition from the driver's seat to pure coaching and development, but perhaps not just yet...

That said, with the demise of the WEC GTE team there may be too many drivers / not enough seats....

[joeb]

Originally Posted by WolfsburgRS

That said, with the demise of the WEC GTE team there may be too many drivers / not enough seats....

Also the demise of the 3rd P1 entry may free up a couple guys in June....

[Spyderman]

Gérard Neveu delighted with Ford's return and optimistic about Porsche
http://gt-lemans.blogspot.com/2015/1...urce=hootsuite

[chernaudi]

Say what you want about the waivers and such, but they do allow for some deus ex machina moments for teams wanting to fix up their cars and hopefully, ironically, rely less on constant BOP changes down the road to be competitive.

[fausto]

Porsche is testing in Monza, today and tomorrow, surveillance is very strict, pics not allowed...saw the car, on the track and for a few seconds, from what I saw engine should be placed in the middle and turbocharged