Scientists work out the best F1 driver of all time and the winner is...

[chunterer]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

chunterer, you raise an interesting point about MS's time at Ferrari because he was actually paid by Philip Morris during that period. What we don't know, of course, is whether it was Ferrari or Philip Morris that held his contract!

Paid by PM but an employee of Ferrari.

I guess the answer about drivers must lie somewhere in knowing who had more sway: Ferrari top brass or the major international conglomerate?

[bauble]

Originally Posted by Kempi

And at the same time he requested teammates to turn over their cars when his broke down. Is that really that much better?

I do not recall Fangio ever having to ask, the team manager would tend to flag in any slower driver and put Juan in the car if the Maestro was sidelined. In 1956 when Peter Collins came into the pits at Monza for a tyre change he saw Fangio standing there, and stepped out voluntarily and handed the car over, thus allowing him to clinch the World Drivers Championship. Fangio was the perfect gentleman, and THAT is one of the reasons we older folk idolise him. No Prima Donna tactics, always humble and self effacing, generous with praise for others, and always drove cleanly. Moss often took over another car when he hit problems, and in the main it was expected by all concerned. What was best for the team ruled.

I do not know how anyone can work out who is/was the BEST driver, but if it comes to Greatness' something more than just success must come into the equation. Whatever it is Fangio had it in spades.

[BSchneiderFan]

Originally Posted by chunterer

Montoya, Mika, DC and Jaqcues were 3 of the leading lights of 'his' Ferrari era that were mentioned. I think that even if they were offered a deal, they rejected it case as it was blatantly clear that the team was set up around Michael and they would not be joining on equal terms (regardless of whether any of us think they would be able to take him on or not!).

So the management could have told Michael that he was their employee and not the other way around and signed whoever they liked but that would have messed up the strategy which was working pretty well.

I don't think any of them could have beaten Schuey over the balance of a season. None had his relentless will to succeed. Häkkinen often lost interest if he wasn't out front, and the others blew hot and cold.

[chunterer]

Originally Posted by BSchneiderFan

I don't think any of them could have beaten Schuey over the balance of a season. None had his relentless will to succeed. Häkkinen often lost interest if he wasn't out front, and the others blew hot and cold.

I think Mika would've nailed him to be frank. Mega quick driver and no, I never saw any loss of interest from him until his last year.

[S griffin]

Indeed I do wonder what if Mika hadn't had that accident in Australia caused by a suspension failure during the race, as he no doubt still had it in him to give Schumi a run for his money. He was the only driver Schumi feared in his peak and with good reason

[BSchneiderFan]

I still think Schumacher would have beaten Häkkinen. Schuey had a determination not seen since Senna, nor, for me, since, plus, of course, sublime driving skills. Think Barcelona 1996, or Hungary 1998. He had the ability to transcend his machinery that I never saw in Mika, who was very fast in a good car.

[jimclark]

Originally Posted by bauble

I do not know how anyone can work out who is/was the BEST driver, but if it comes to Greatness' something more than just success must come into the equation. Whatever it is Fangio had it in spades.

Agreed, of course.

With all due respect, might I please add Jimmy to your list?

[jimclark]

My comprehension of things in general is usually pretty good. In this sitiation, however, I'm lost. Nothing at all against Marc; and never a huge Mario fan; but Surer on the top 50 list and Andretti not?

(one of my favourite words)... PONDEROUS !!!

[BSchneiderFan]

The whole debate is pointless, anyway, as Jim Clark was the greatest driver who ever raced.

[chunterer]

Originally Posted by BSchneiderFan

I still think Schumacher would have beaten Häkkinen. Schuey had a determination not seen since Senna, nor, for me, since, plus, of course, sublime driving skills. Think Barcelona 1996, or Hungary 1998. He had the ability to transcend his machinery that I never saw in Mika, who was very fast in a good car.

Estoril 1993. Straight in and out qualified Ayrton first event since the end of '92. Not very many drivers did that.

Shame he crashed in the race though lol!!

[jimclark]

Originally Posted by BSchneiderFan

The whole debate is pointless, anyway, as Jim Clark was the greatest driver who ever raced.

As you can tell, I hope, I think very highly of Jimmy. I agree with you in that these debates never resolve a thing as there are so many variables.

But by the same reasoning, I have to admit I cannot and will not emphatically say he "was the greatest driver who ever raced." I know all to well that I am biased therefore will only say that he is there with those that are/were the best in more than just the ability to drive fast.

[chunterer]

Originally Posted by jimclark

As you can tell, I hope, I think very highly of Jimmy. I agree with you in that these debates never resolve a thing as there are so many variables.

But by the same reasoning, I have to admit I cannot and will not emphatically say he "was the greatest driver who ever raced." I know all to well that I am biased therefore will only say that he is there with those that are/were the best in more than just the ability to drive fast.

Yes, I think the best we can do is isolate the top 2-3 of each era and but it is impossible to compare one era against another.

If any of them ever competed at the same time in a parallel universe then we would know who was the boss!

Thing is though, I think a modern day driver with great ability would beat a contemporary from earlier times because they are so much fitter these days?

[BSchneiderFan]

I do wonder what it would have been like if Jimmy hadn't gone to Hockenheim for that F2 meeting and had been racing into the 1970s as aerodynamics came in. I don't doubt there would have been more championships, 1968 for sure. Have to think he would have beaten Rindt in 1970. Could he have handled Emmo in 1972, as he approached his late 30s? I suspect so, too.

[bauble]

Originally Posted by chunterer

Yes, I think the best we can do is isolate the top 2-3 of each era and but it is impossible to compare one era against another.

If any of them ever competed at the same time in a parallel universe then we would know who was the boss!

Thing is though, I think a modern day driver with great ability would beat a contemporary from earlier times because they are so much fitter these days?

The fault line that runs through that argument, if you like, is that today's drivers have little to fear, and earlier generations had much to consider when racing. I know some people think that there is something in a persons DNA that would make them competitive in any era, however, my feeling is that modern drivers are far to safety conscious to ever contemplate the dangers of the 1950's. Different DNA make up entirely, witness the move for enclosed cockpits. Anything that reduces the risk is a must nowadays.

The 'Greatest Driver Ever' is the one you consider as such.

As to fitter? No! Only in a general health sense perhaps but to wrestle a Alfa Romeo, Ferrari or ERA over basic public roads for three hours without rest often in pouring rain, on skinny tyres meant that a driver had to be incredibly fit. And incredibly brave.

[chillibowl]

just looking at those old pictures and seeing the amount of gas and smoke marks on their face after a race, i cant imagine how difficult it was to maintain proper breathing and hydration during such long events. certainly a testament to their fitness levels in general.

but there is more to health then just stamina. diet and lifestyle play a part as well.

certainly in the past as the technology was new many accidents were no doubt caused by purely mechanical issues so there is probably no way to answer this but how many of those accidents could have been preventable if there was a better level of health (better knowledge of the correlations between health and mental stamina) not just among the drivers but also among the mechanics?

several stories i have read involve drivers racing all day then getting into a car driving across Europe in order to reach the next race a few days later.

they really did push themselves much harder but arguably they were not making the most efficient use of their health.

i guess my point would be, putting the mechanical issues aside, if there was a time machine and a Schumi type driver could go back in time, i think in some respects the better overall fitness of today's drivers would have mitigated some of the dangers that drivers in the past would have been exposed to.

but yeah it really is next to impossible to compare across eras like this.

one thing we do know is that when a modern driver does drive an older era car their comments are almost always universally the same...they are beyond disbelief at how difficult those cars were to drive.

[BSchneiderFan]

The problem with the argument that today's drivers wouldn't take the risks that drivers from earlier eras were willing to take is it assumes today's drivers were comparing between now and then. If Senna, for example, had been racing in the 1950s, I have no doubt he'd have pushed every bit as hard in a fragile Ferrari or Maserati while wearing a polo shirt and a cloth helmet. People judge risks by the standards of the time they're in. And there will be differences of opinion. It took the moral courage of JYS to say "Enough is enough", even while other drivers questioned his manliness.

And while we're talking bravery, there was surely never one as brave as the late, great David Purley.

[Mike Harte]

This is so subjective, and in reality, so unfair. The longer that the Championship goes on, it becomes more and more difficult to compare drivers from the different eras. There is, for example, the argument, that I don't necessarily agree with, that John Surtees is the greatest driver ever because he is the only person who has managed to be champion on both two and four wheels.

I think that the time has come that comparisons between the different eras should be banned, and then let's just have grown up discussions about who was master of his peers.

[bauble]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

This is so subjective, and in reality, so unfair. The longer that the Championship goes on, it becomes more and more difficult to compare drivers from the different eras. There is, for example, the argument, that I don't necessarily agree with, that John Surtees is the greatest driver ever because he is the only person who has managed to be champion on both two and four wheels.

I think that the time has come that comparisons between the different eras should be banned, and then let's just have grown up discussions about who was master of his peers.

If we did that Mike I would be unable to pontificate (smugly) about the great drivers from 'my' era. Would you really like to spoil an old mans only pleasure?

Shame on you.

[Mike Harte]

You're excluded from this discussion anyway, Bob, as you've not grown up yet

[bauble]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

You're excluded from this discussion anyway, Bob, as you've not grown up yet

True friend, and long may it continue.

[S griffin]

I think it's safe to say that Senna is the most known and revered of all time, he carried an aura that likes of Pele or Ali carried

[bauble]

Originally Posted by S griffin

I think it's safe to say that Senna is the most known and revered of all time, he carried an aura that likes of Pele or Ali carried

Methinks you may get some disagreement.

[BSchneiderFan]

Originally Posted by S griffin

I think it's safe to say that Senna is the most known and revered of all time, he carried an aura that likes of Pele or Ali carried

I certainly don't revere Senna, he was a danger to himself and others.

[S griffin]

True he did take it too far too often, but you always knew when he was in the room. You always knew where you were with him

[BSchneiderFan]

Originally Posted by S griffin

You always knew where you were with him

I think the problem was rather that you didn't, as far as other drivers were concerned. My issue with Senna was that his much-lauded self-belief, which people venerate as "the warrior spirit", meant that he couldn't believe he could be beaten, that it was somehow unfair, and that he had the right to win. Hence Suzuka 1990.