Series looks forward to 2005

[indycool]

Boli, I have followed CART since attending its inaugural race in 1979 at Phoenix. I have followed Indy cars long before that. Although OWRS is no longer the Indy cars, I still follow the series.

You have just been here briefly, but I think you'll find that people like Muzza and the others he mentioned in that post tend more toward analysis at this board rather than CW jihad stuff, because that's what this board seems to be all about. Myself, I find the international makeup of this board and the knowledgeable road-racing fans on it more enlightening than at other boards. I post here accordingly, inflame Dov once in awhile but to tend to look at John SSC, Fogelhund, Muzza and others as voices of reason and independent thinking here and respond accordingly.

Look at the above few posts, discussing Carpentier's popularity and PT's and Scott Goodyear's in Canada......all knowledgeable posts from Canada about their drivers, things I don't know nearly as well as they do.

[JohnSSC]

Mosport67, thanks for the info on Scott Goodyear. some i knew, some was new. I always thought he was vastly underrated and he did well with the equipment he had.

He was to me what I think of as a "cusp" driver: one whose career could take (or could have taken) a dramatic upswing with just a decent break here or there. winning the 500 for example would have improved Scott's fortunes considerably.

Danny Ongais was one of those guys for me but he had "the big one" and that derailed that career. Tom Bagley was a fellow with some potential some years back, Ganassi was actually pretty quick on the big ovals. Dick simon wasn't bad either but then I get going in the Wayback Machine and lose those of you who came to CC in the late '80's or early 90's!

Indycool, thanks for including me with Muzza and Fogelhund - good company there which I am privleged to be considered in! (Check your pm's by the way!).

[indycool]

You're welcome, John, and oops, I forgot to list Brian Keske in that group, who I suggested join this forum for equal reasons.

[jjspierx]

Originally posted by indycool
Boli, I have followed CART since attending its inaugural race in 1979 at Phoenix. I have followed Indy cars long before that. Although OWRS is no longer the Indy cars, I still follow the series.

Althought OWRS cars are called Champcars, they are still a direct descendent of the Indy Car. The current Indy Car, while called Indy Car, is a new design that has nothing to do with what used to be Indy car.

[Mosport67]

JohnSSC

You have dragged me into the wayback machine too. I well remember Danny Ongais at Mosport in 1978 (might have been 1979) qualifying and getting closer and closer to the the F1 lap record. Suddenly silence(a bad thing at the race track) as he went off at the end of the back straight. Still a fantastic performance by a very exciting driver.

I remember Tom Bagely too. I think he raced in SuperVee's at Mosport around that time. My all-time favourite team with Herm Johnson in the Ozone Racing SuperVee from Eau Claire, Wisconsin was also part of that era. I think I still have the t-shirt somewhere.

As to Scott Goodyear, he just didn't get the big break. Still he had a decent career and seems to be doing fine right now. Another of a great number of guys who never quite reached the level you might have expected. Still for a guy who was just hanging on to a racing career in 1989 he ended up with some success.

[JohnSSC]

Mosport67:
The Wayback Machine is not a bad place to be! Tom Bagley had a few IndyCar rides with a few appearances at the 500 - Kent Oil was his personal sponsor iirc.

Herm Johnson! Another one who dominated - in this case Super Vee but didn't quite make the jump. Remember Howdy Holmes (Jiffy Foods)? Not a lot of talent but he had his moments. Bill and Don Whittington - P-51's or Champ Cars this weekend, you decide!

And Danny Ongais - "The Flyin' Hawaiian!" He had to be seen to be believed and even then you just couldn't believe it! Interscope Racing - Black (the team's color) was beautiful!

We can let the arguement that is about to break out in this thread over who has the Right Legal Moral Righteous Permission to use terms such as "Champ Car" and "Indy Car" go right on along. Neither side, imho, should dare to lay claim to the rich tradition that open wheel racing once was here.

You and I my friend can sit back and remember what made those terms important.

Hopefully, they will become important again.

[indycool]

jjs, the OWRS "Champ Cars" are no more a "direct descendant" of Indy cars than the current Indy cars are. The current "Indy cars" are a different formula than Champ Cars, but they race at Indy. 'Nuff said.

P.S. -- John, Howdy Holmes wasn't a "terror" in the big cars but he DID sit in the middle of the front row at Indy once with McLaren.

[Mosport67]

Champcars/Indycars are all the same to me. Champcars race at the Molson Indy.

JohnSSC
I just checked back and Tom Bagely won the SuperVee race at Mosport in 1977. Danny Ongais won the Indy Car race there in 1978.

Howdy Holmes made a number of appearances at Mosport in the EZ-Wider sponsored March (I think) likely a 78B. He was much better there than in the Indy Cars. A number of Indy competitiors came through that series in those years including Kevin Cogan, Michael Andretti, Bobby Rahal, and Jeff Wood.

The wayback machine is working overtime today.

[Mosport67]

I went back to check the Mosport results was reminded that in 1986 Paul Tracy at 17 years old won a CanAm race in Horst Kroll's Frisbee. His profile was very much on the rise after that. I have a recollection that Scott Goodyear was in the same race but in a under 2 litre car. That might be faulty memory on my part but just an example of how PT got a higher profile.

Here is a link to the results page http://mosport.com/roadhome.htm
which takes me a long way down memory lane.

Sorry for taking this thread so far off topic.

[JohnSSC]

jjspierx, I am going to have to chime in here as well. Neither series can lay claim to being direct descendants of "Indy Cars." I think the best either can say is that the series (both) are based on cars that run or have run at Indy.

The "true" American idiom of "Indy Car" would be a front-engined roadster powered by Novi engines (where is Tim Northcutt when I need him??), capable of running on dirt and asphalt.

The old USAC circuit was based on cars that were eligible to run at Indy. Hence: "Indy Cars."

Now, having paid lip service to the actual thread, I leap into the Wayback Machine and say: Kevin Cogan!! The Paul Tracy of California! Blindingly quick with severe difficulties in keeping from hitting any (and every)thing else. Personality-wise though he was far less edgy.

He probably has more 500 front rows without a win than just about anyone else.

And good old Howdy who dared to be sponsored by E-Z Wider "cigarette papers" (yeah, sure!)of the Jiffy Foods family fortune did sneak onto that front row - probably still wondering how he did it!

Tom Bagley's father-in-law lived near me - I used to chat with him a bit. He was always on the road in his RV following Tom around.

Wonder what those guys are doing these days?? Wonder what they would think of us chatting about "business plans" and "visions." Probably tell us to go on ahead and chat - just point 'em to the race cars!

[paul-collins]

Scott Goodyear only shows up in classicscars.com's archive twice, both at Mosport - 1982 2nd race and 1984 first race. DNF in a Ralt in 1982 and DNS in an Osella in '84...

[macdaddy]

John, one could argue that a true "IndyCar" has wooden spoked wheels and a riding oilman.

[Mosport67]

Originally posted by paul-collins
Scott Goodyear only shows up in classicscars.com's archive twice, both at Mosport - 1982 2nd race and 1984 first race. DNF in a Ralt in 1982 and DNS in an Osella in '84...

Paul

I have a firm memory of Scott in a Midland Radio car in under 2 litre CanAm. It might well have been a Ralt based on the open-wheel car. As I think about it I seem to think he was running very well in his class and then retired with an engine problem.

[JohnSSC]

John, one could argue that a true "IndyCar" has wooden spoked wheels and a riding oilman.

macdaddy

Macdaddy: that is the point I am trying to make. The cars/specifications are related to the 500, but imho, neither series can claim to be "true" descendants of these cars as the 500 became it's own animal, so to speak.

Can you imagine being the oilman on a wooden-wheeled roadster honking around on a bunch of bricks at 80+ mph???

Do you think they had discussion groups back then during the off-season wondering who Ferd Berferd was going to be oilman for next year?

[indycool]

Ongais, to my knowledge, is still in California. Howdy Holmes is running the family business, Jiffy Mixes, in Ann Arbor, Mich. Last I heard, Tom Bagley was still working for PPG Industries, where he went after he retired as a driver.

[jjspierx]

All I'm saying, is I think most of us will agree that before the IRL split, the cars used in the CART PPG series were Indy cars. Whether or not you truely believe it was an Indy car, is pretty irrelevant, as they were called Indy Cars. When the IRL split off, CART continued to use the same cars, and the IRL used a basically the same thing for the first few years with slight changes being introduced at certain points. The current Dallara and Gforce chassis's however are a completely redesigned and different car. The current Champcar is a direct descendant of what was called Indy car before the IRL. The current IRL car is a completely different car, that is only recently called an Indy car because the legal rights to the name were released by CART.

[Mosport67]

Here is a photo of Scott in a Ralt in 1982
http://www.racingsportscars.com/phot...-09-12-071.jpg

Just to bring this back on topic a little, when I look at the gallery of photos for 1982 CanAm I was struck by the lack of sponsors. It reminds me of ChampCar today. Ultimately the series needs sponsors to pick up the tab otherwise you need drivers who bring money. Without enough sponsors the series will have a very difficult time long term. This needs to continue to be addressed.

[paul-collins]

Well, look at the fields in 1981 versus 1982, and consider what the Can-Am stalwarts were doing - fleeing for CART!

[Boli-Nica]

Originally posted by paul-collins
Well, look at the fields in 1981 versus 1982, and consider what the Can-Am stalwarts were doing - fleeing for CART!

And many of the fans who went to Can-Am events at these same tracks, became CART fans.

[Kicking-back]

Well maybe the fans who go to the CART events at these same tracks would become fans of whatever replaced it

[indycool]

Whoa on the history a bit, jjs. In 1996, the IRL used year-old cars from the "original" PPG Indy Car World Series. Starting in 1997, Dallara and G Force have been the sole chassis suppliers for the IRL and Indy (save for brief motions from Riley & Scott and Falcon). From lawsuits between IRL and CART from the split, it was settled that neither could use the term "Indycar" for five years, that term expired and now the cars that run at Indy are called "Indycars." Saying today's OWRS cars are direct descendants of Indycars is like saying the rear-engine cars that arrived in the '60s were direct descendants of the front-engined roadsters. The only thing that makes an Indycar an Indycar is that it runs at Indy.

[Snrub]

If "Indy cars" are the formula of the cars that run at Indy, then in that sense, the formula that ran at Indy before the split is the formula that is used in CC. It's an interesting, point on who should have the right to call their cars "Indy Cars". I suppose a case can be made for either series, but I tend to think that the people running at Indy should have it.

As for the rear engined cars of the 60's run at Indy, the first were F1 cars. Were they F1 cars or Indy cars?

[jjspierx]

Good point Snrub. I have no problem calling the IRL Indycars. Yes, they are now Indycars. Champcars are Champcars. I just wanted to make it clear, that a Champcar is essentially an Indycar pre-IRL, without the legal naming rights. At this point I don't even want to call a Champcar an Indycar for fear of confusing people with a lesser car that currently runs at Indy.

Indycool - I'm sure you are right, I was under the impression that IRL used the CART chassis for more than 1 year and that it was just modified more and more until Falcon, Dallara and G-force came along after a few years. Obviously my knowledge of the IRL is limited mainly to the politics of the split and the politics that exist to this day that involve OWRS. Sorry for misstating the facts.

[indycool]

Good point, Snrub...the first was a Cooper Climax driven by Jack Brabham that started the rear-engine revolution. After the success Brabham had, USAC quickly had to design specs for rear-engine cars and did so. Those specs weren't the same as F1 cars, but within a scant few years, all cars were rear-engine, some built in the U.S. by guys like A.J. Watson, some built overseas. Colin Chapman's Lotuses were purpose-built for Indy and Jimmy Clark not only won at Indy, but at Milwaukee.

Back in the '50s, for several years, the Indianapolis 500 was on the F1 calendar and paid points toward the F1 championship, although those that competed there generally were U.S. drivers who ran only the "500." THAT could make the case that Indy cars were F1 cars THEN.

jjs, in a discussion on the same subject at another forum, someone pointed out the current OWRS cars are the extension of the Indy car formula pre-1997. That, I guess, might make it more accurate.