[BTCC] 2024 BTCC Rds. 13/14/15 Oulton Park

[Evantra]

Thought the Caterhams were very good. Hopefully see them again.

[codename_47]

Who do we petition to get the radicals thrown off the support package for 2025?

You think Porsches are dull then these guys show up....

2 classes, 6 cars each?

Get rid....

[InYourMirrors45]

Originally Posted by Evantra

Well in fairness, in the end only Cook got a good result out of it. But still, such an offset is a bit ridiculous.

Was it such an off-set though? Know one else made any sort of meaningful progress and Cook did gain a chunk of time with the first corner incident and the first lap bunching at the hairpin.

[porsche962fan]

I don't understand why is it such a rocket science to produce good racing in support races

like
- remove most electronics
- mandatory old fashion H shifter
- no carbon brakes
- narrower cars
- less aero

this might also save costs too

[v8supes]

Originally Posted by codename_47

Who do we petition to get the radicals thrown off the support package for 2025?

You think Porsches are dull then these guys show up....

2 classes, 6 cars each?

Get rid....

I keep saying it, there is never a good Radical race. The cars are rockets on a single lap and are faster than most things but because they are "proper" race cars the difference in driver ability is exasperated.

Truthfully i think there are too many championships in the country all pitching for the same money. Look at the Ginettas on the British GT grid, barely into double figures other than the juniors.

[Evantra]

Hoped Doble would get that, drove excellently. Perhaps gave Hill a lot more room than he could’ve done!

Championship looking close. Awful day for Turkington, Cammish creeping up.

[porsche962fan]

good for ATS that he left that farce HARD and now a proper team, his results improved massively

Turkington overshadowed by Hill big time

[Matt K]

Probably the worst day for Sutton in years. Massively unlucky. Also, interesting that NAPA didn't decide to play a team game when Ash got stuck behind Rowbottom. Be interesting to see how Ash can rebuild after that given that for the first time this year he will have a bit more hybrid in qualifying at Croft.

Anyway, think it's Hill's year but it'll be close till the end I guess.

[InYourMirrors45]

Hill seems in a really good place with that car currently and with the next 2 rounds coming at favourable RWD Tracks you’d expect him to extend his championship lead further. Not the end of the world for Sutton IMO, 2 non scores put he’s only 25 points off the lead and now with a bit more hybrid to play with in qualifying he won’t be panicking. Turkington’s weekend was ruined by the clutch issue otherwise I’m sure he would’ve made a visit to the podium at some point during the day. Unless your name is Sutton, Hill, Ingram and Cammish everyone else just seems miles off the pace. Glad to see Cook get a win finally although the did seem a little embarrassed by the fact that he drove round the outside of about 5 cars on lap 1 with the soft tyre advantage, other Toyotas seemed a long way off all weekend.

Anyone else find a race 2 top 10 hard tyre rule a little daft? Maybe it should be reduced to the top 5/6 instead if they persist with it for another season.

[codename_47]

Originally Posted by v8supes

I keep saying it, there is never a good Radical race. The cars are rockets on a single lap and are faster than most things but because they are "proper" race cars the difference in driver ability is exasperated.

Truthfully i think there are too many championships in the country all pitching for the same money. Look at the Ginettas on the British GT grid, barely into double figures other than the juniors.

Maybe that's the root of it, TOCA fell out with Ginetta so they want to give some publicity to a rival to spite them

Meanwhile we all have to suffer through them

Oh well, RJN confirmed we won't be seeing them again this year, lets hope never again too....

[MarcusH26]

Originally Posted by Matt K

Probably the worst day for Sutton in years. Massively unlucky. Also, interesting that NAPA didn't decide to play a team game when Ash got stuck behind Rowbottom. Be interesting to see how Ash can rebuild after that given that for the first time this year he will have a bit more hybrid in qualifying at Croft.

Anyway, think it's Hill's year but it'll be close till the end I guess.

Yeah I don't recall Ash quite having a weekend like this weekend for many seasons. Still expecting the title to go right to the wire at Brands but it's a big task for Ash to overhaul that gap now given Ingram's consistency and the outright pace of the BMW and Hill.

[SSmith]

Not a bad day of racing. Agree on lots of points raised here:

Very bad luck for Sutton. 24 points off Hill and 20 off Ingram isn't great for Sutton, but it is far from over. The RWD advantage is less-pronounced than it used to be at Croft and Sutton performed heroics at Knockhill last year. Anything can still happen.

Bodywork and black/orange flags. At least they have been mostly consistent (although Smiley perhaps should have had one in Race 1). Alliance Racing have got a few weeks over the summer to think up where to place an additional screw to stop that piece of bodywork coming loose.

Tyres. For the sake of consistency, maybe they should just bring the Soft, Medium and Hard everywhere except Thruxton (Hard only)?

Doble and ATS my personal drivers of the day. The Astra is a bit long-in-the-tooth, but some sensible and consistent driving has netted them considerable success. Unless Smiley or DeLeon have a purple patch after the break, a PMR driver will take the Independents title, and Doble has a decent lead in the JST.

Supports. Some very poor/desperate driving in Sprint Challenge. Radicals - the less said the better BUT someone needs to sponsor Lulham to see what he can do in F4 or a GT car. MINIs, nice to see some different names winning.

[Matt K]

Originally Posted by InYourMirrors45

Anyone else find a race 2 top 10 hard tyre rule a little daft? Maybe it should be reduced to the top 5/6 instead if they persist with it for another season.

Yeah, the rule's pretty meh. IMO they should ditch it altogether as well as all the option tyre mess. I'd be also really happy to see them ditch the hybrid variation. Let them all race like real racing drivers and let the best win, forget the gimmicks. Sadly, won't happen.

Anyway, all the changes for this year aimed to make racing more exciting. At halfway point we can still say Race 1 winner has a very big chance of scoring Race 2 win, the passing is no longer as wild as used to be when cars were narrower and driving standard way way worse. What we got instead of top class racing of 2023, is a wild mess of gimmicks thrown in your face. A change for the worse IMO but probably I'm the only one to think so.

[Evantra]

Originally Posted by Matt K

Anyway, all the changes for this year aimed to make racing more exciting. At halfway point we can still say Race 1 winner has a very big chance of scoring Race 2 win, the passing is no longer as wild as used to be when cars were narrower and driving standard way way worse. What we got instead of top class racing of 2023, is a wild mess of gimmicks thrown in your face. A change for the worse IMO but probably I'm the only one to think so.

I don’t think it’s quite that bad, certainly it’s been very close at the top of the championship and I can’t remember 2023 being that much better in terms of racing. But yeah, I agree the gimmicks are too much and have been for a while.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by MarcusH26

Yeah I don't recall Ash quite having a weekend like this weekend for many seasons.

1st meeting 2023 was probably the last time (16pts vs the 18pts today).

Prior to that, Knockhill 2019 is (IIRC) the last time he had less points.

[TinTopGrumpy]

Originally Posted by Matt K

Yeah, the rule's pretty meh. IMO they should ditch it altogether as well as all the option tyre mess. I'd be also really happy to see them ditch the hybrid variation. Let them all race like real racing drivers and let the best win, forget the gimmicks. Sadly, won't happen.

Anyway, all the changes for this year aimed to make racing more exciting. At halfway point we can still say Race 1 winner has a very big chance of scoring Race 2 win, the passing is no longer as wild as used to be when cars were narrower and driving standard way way worse. What we got instead of top class racing of 2023, is a wild mess of gimmicks thrown in your face. A change for the worse IMO but probably I'm the only one to think so.

There are plenty of race series out there that don't have the gimmicks as you put it. Why does all racing have to be exactly the same?

The armchair fans quickly get bored with domination which is what would most likely happen and then there would be no BTCC at all.

[SSmith]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

1st meeting 2023 was probably the last time (16pts vs the 18pts today).

Prior to that, Knockhill 2019 is (IIRC) the last time he had less points.

Yeah, Sutton's 2019 season had some major low points.

I had to research this, but looks like Oulton Park 2021 was the worst in recent years - 14th, 8th, Retired = 10pts.

[Matt K]

Originally Posted by TinTopGrumpy

There are plenty of race series out there that don't have the gimmicks as you put it. Why does all racing have to be exactly the same?

Lack of gimmicks wouldn't make BTCC exactly the same as other series. 'All racing' would be 'exactly the same' if all championships used the same cars, point systems, race formats, you name it. Gimmicks or lack thereof is a completely different story. If BTCC had no hybrid variation, no option tyres and other silly rules, it'd still be unique and I'd still watch this rather than F1 for instance.

Of course, as you say, we'd have probably more dominant winners and that would put the casual viewers off, that's another story. But even if we accept that BTCC is entertainment first, gimmicks second, sport third, there can still be a better balance of that. Watching Cook walk away with a win because he was in another class wasn't particularly interesting. Yeah, still nice that the best drivers can do good results (Sutton's quali performance with almost no hybrid is an example of that) but I'd take less passing over mayhem caused by grid being mixed up because of hybrid allocation, different tyres and what not.

[codename_47]

Originally Posted by Matt K

Lack of gimmicks wouldn't make BTCC exactly the same as other series. 'All racing' would be 'exactly the same' if all championships used the same cars, point systems, race formats, you name it. Gimmicks or lack thereof is a completely different story. If BTCC had no hybrid variation, no option tyres and other silly rules, it'd still be unique and I'd still watch this rather than F1 for instance.

Of course, as you say, we'd have probably more dominant winners and that would put the casual viewers off, that's another story. But even if we accept that BTCC is entertainment first, gimmicks second, sport third, there can still be a better balance of that. Watching Cook walk away with a win because he was in another class wasn't particularly interesting. Yeah, still nice that the best drivers can do good results (Sutton's quali performance with almost no hybrid is an example of that) but I'd take less passing over mayhem caused by grid being mixed up because of hybrid allocation, different tyres and what not.

I've noticed a tendancy for hardcore fans to be complete purists.

They get annoyed when a SC is thrown as if that ruins the completely unfettered green race they were expecting

They get annoyed at any reversed grid races

They get annoyed at success ballasts, turbo boosts or DRS to spice up the racing in the face of cars that find it harder and harder to pass without elements like this

They get annoyed at any interesting qualifying formats designed to shake up the grid

The reality is, purism is just:the fastest car starting at the front of the field and pulling away in a processional race

That doesn't sell tickets to the average fan who considers seeing some racing on a Sunday morning, nor does it capture the attention of the average tv/tiktok viewer just scrolling through the sports looking for something to watch

I don't know a way to ensure the action of the BTCC that will capture enough casual fans to make it worth it for all the advertisers to be around without ****ing off the purists...

It is what it is, it'll always try SOMETHING to spice up the racing, you can either take it for what it is or enjoy Britcar or something which is more "pure" but has smaller grids, fan attendence and action during the races

It's the debate had on here since day 1 of the forum and will be had on the day the money runs out for the hosting company....nothing ever changes

[Matt K]

Well, you're certainly not wrong and yeah, I admit, I'm a bit of a purist in terms of motor racing yet still don't consider resigning from watching BTCC because I still like it as it is. It's just that there are things I'd change to make it even better for my personal liking and I'm not the one who pretends everything is perfect because nothing is.
Coming back to the gimmicks and so on. Yes, BTCC has been gimmicky for years and some of gimmicks were introduced even back in the day of the seemingly glorious and perfect Super Touring era. It's just as I said, about striking the right balance of things. The regulations in general make cars very close, they don't allow for a lot of freedoms, which already makes the grid quite competitive. If we add reversed grids and varied hybrid allocation we're fine to have a mixed up grid and exciting racing (although I'd do some changes in hybrid - for instance get rid of this in qualifying or just reduce the differences, but anyway). We don't have to throw some additional stuff like all the option tyres, the rule about Top 10 having to get the hardest compound etc because this is a distraction, not an enhancement.

And well, I might be a bit more negative today because my favourite driver had a horrid day and as a passionate BTCC follower I'm a bit grumpy today as well. Forgive me for that

[TinTopGrumpy]

Originally Posted by Matt K

Watching Cook walk away with a win because he was in another class wasn't particularly interesting. Y

Cook didn't walk away because he was in a different class. He walked away due to a perfectly timed (for him) incident. Without that there would have been multiple cars fighting with him.

[antnee]

Did the Race 2 top 10 on hard tyres rule not apply for Oulton?

[Pdh]

Originally Posted by antnee

Did the Race 2 top 10 on hard tyres rule not apply for Oulton?

Yes it did apply but some people that finished in the top 10 in race one were on hard tyres so that means they only had softs left for Races 2&3

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by antnee

Did the Race 2 top 10 on hard tyres rule not apply for Oulton?

Yes - it applied.

The tyres used for R1 and R2 were as follows (top ten finishers)

Driver	R1	R2
Ingram	Soft	Hard
Sutton	Soft	Hard
Cammish	Soft	Hard
Rowbottom	Soft	Hard
Morgan	Soft	Hard
Hill	Soft	Hard
Chilton	Soft	Hard
Taylor-Smith	Hard	Soft
Cook	Hard	Soft
Moffat	Hard	Soft

[Sodemo]

I think the performance step between the two tyres was too big in my opinion. The driving standards seemed good though with minimal incidents in the BTCC races.