Parity Review Has Been Called

[GTRMagic]

Originally Posted by banksie

Slight increase to the Mustang's rear downforce.

Supercars statement.

And what happens if/WHEN this doesn’t fix the speed imbalance between the teams running Fords as opposed to Chevs?

[Mixer]

Originally Posted by GTRMagic

And what happens if/WHEN this doesn’t fix the speed imbalance between the teams running Fords as opposed to Chevs?

Can't see DJR or Tickford pit stops or strategy magically improving.

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by GTRMagic

And what happens if/WHEN this doesn’t fix the speed imbalance between the teams running Fords as opposed to Chevs?

It should do, but there are still the engines to perfectly equalise too. It is quite illogical that the 2nd-5th best teams of 2022 would have all forgotten how to go motor racing and all have been overtaken by the 6th-10th best teams. They are all independent teams (well apart from the 888 customer teams), so their results should all be uncorrelated regardless of brand if performance is independent of body shape (instead of all Mustangs going slower and all GM teams going faster).

[bluesport]

Statement from Supercars: Parity review

https://www.supercars.com/news/champ...parity-review/

[GTRMagic]

Mr Waters is running his fresh engine originally earmarked for Bathurst this weekend.
New engine should equal more power.. maybe..

Parity equalisation in a spin again..

[HDTVKSS]

Adding more downforce is an interesting outcome.

im not sure how that addresses the perceived straight line issues - in fact given that it will come with X points of drag, does it make it worse?

Whats clear is someone is wrong and has been for a while - either v8SC or the ford teams.

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by HDTVKSS

Adding more downforce is an interesting outcome.

im not sure how that addresses the perceived straight line issues - in fact given that it will come with X points of drag, does it make it worse?

There isn't a huge straight line power issue, it's more of a tyre wear issue.

The changes will have been done to increase downforce in braking and cornering, without increasing straight-line downforce or drag.

As you can appreciate, it seems it has been difficult to decouple the engine braking issue (with the stroked Coyote's high engine inertia) from the loss of downforce under dive in braking issue.

It's still unclear whether the LS engines will be running weighted pulleys or flywheels to make sure their engine inertia is the same as the stroked Coyote.

[GTRMagic]

Originally Posted by HDTVKSS

Adding more downforce is an interesting outcome.

im not sure how that addresses the perceived straight line issues - in fact given that it will come with X points of drag, does it make it worse?

Whats clear is someone is wrong and has been for a while - either v8SC or the ford teams.

Just because you change a wing doesnt necessarily mean there will be more downforce... who knows what a team may do to trim a car to get more straight line speed...

[HDTVKSS]

Originally Posted by GTRMagic

Just because you change a wing doesnt necessarily mean there will be more downforce... who knows what a team may do to trim a car to get more straight line speed...

it literally says they added more downforce.

[Mixer]

Originally Posted by HDTVKSS

Whats clear is someone is wrong and has been for a while - either v8SC or the ford teams.

The issue all along has been that Ford has lacked consistency and each time they blame something else it undermines their credibility.

We've never seen a field so close in laptime, so 1st to 15th is a tiny fraction.

I think Ford teams have manipulated the situation deliberately knowing some change was coming and watch them use up test days and magically jump up the grid now...

[bluesport]

Originally Posted by HDTVKSS

Adding more downforce is an interesting outcome.

im not sure how that addresses the perceived straight line issues - in fact given that it will come with X points of drag, does it make it worse?

Whats clear is someone is wrong and has been for a while - either v8SC or the ford teams.

Extra rear downforce allows for better acceleration out of the corners while also preserving the rear tyres which doesn't help so much in qualifying but is of great help over a race distance.

[HDTVKSS]

Originally Posted by bluesport

Extra rear downforce allows for better acceleration out of the corners .

Does it though? that sound smore like mechanical grip than aero.

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by Mixer

The issue all along has been that Ford has lacked consistency and each time they blame something else it undermines their credibility.

Which is illogical, no, when the 2nd-5th best teams of 2022 are all independent and separate? If there is zero difference between the two body styles, results should be independent of brand -- there should not be a brand trend of P2-P5 teams all getting worse and P6-P10 teams all getting better.

[bluesport]

Originally Posted by HDTVKSS

Does it though? that sound smore like mechanical grip than aero.

It's obvious that rear downforce helps with tyre degradation and improves mid-corner speed and drive out of the corners.

[Ares]

The introduction of a new car always mixes up the field. Add to that, smaller teams are not at the disadvantage of running old technology components like in Gen2 i.e., uprights. Parity was not the reason for the squatting dog setup DJR were sporting at one stage. The little Frenchman was out to lunch.

The up's this weekend will be all the NASCAR fans tuning in for a look. They are all going to be able to identify with the Mustang and Camaro. No BMW, Audi, Renault or Alfa... Now that's great news isn't it.

[Mixer]

Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks

Which is illogical, no, when the 2nd-5th best teams of 2022 are all independent and separate? If there is zero difference between the two body styles, results should be independent of brand -- there should not be a brand trend of P2-P5 teams all getting worse and P6-P10 teams all getting better.

You do know there is a brand new car right.

One of those teams is trending downwards since the start of 2021. It also happens to be the Mustang homologation team.

You might ask yourself the question of what happened at the end of 2020 and why it might cause the performance of that team to return to where they were prior.

Also - all of those teams have issues that have caused them to be where they are. DJR performance is literally mid-pack, they can't make a pit stop without mistakes. Tickford have 2 fast drivers who crash into everything and 2 pay drivers. Tickford also have lost points through poor car preparation and mystifyingly awful pit strategy. WAU and Grove may as well be one team. The position of the teams is extremely well explained by the team's own issues, and these performance issues are MUCH larger than any difference in parity.

Looking for patterns in data to support what you already believe is a logical fallacy.

The Texas Sharpshooter Fallacy is a logical fallacy based on the metaphor of a gunman shooting the side of a barn, then drawing targets around the bullethole clusters to make it look like he hit the target. It illustrates how people look for similarities, ignoring differences, and do not account for randomness.

Going by your argument that Ford were in P2-P5 last year, I could make a cross argument that parity didn't exist last year - but this is nonsense. Just as blaming championship positions purely on disparity is nonsense.

Ford teams this year have regularly given up signficant points for issues that had nothing to do with on-track car performance. That has to be factored into any argument around championship points.

Supercars has got some data from laptimes it is acting on - let's hope teams who do the best can win. Right now even if cars are equal none of the Ford teams look like winners.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by HDTVKSS

Does it though? that sound smore like mechanical grip than aero.

If it helps the discussion(s) about aero benefits, two good articles can be found at:

http://racingcardynamics.com/race-ca...air-lap-times/

http://theracingline.net/2018/race-c...r-of-pressure/

In terms of your direct question - from the 'dynamics' link - 'the amount of lateral force that can be generated by a tyre is extremely dependent on the vertical force acting upon it.

Simply put, the higher the vertical loads on a tyre, the higher the lateral force it can generate.'

So - with more rear downforce, higher lateral force can be put on a tyre, allowing acceleration to happen earlier out of a corner.

A more complex way to look at it comes from the racingline article, which expands on centre of pressure (CP) in relation to centre of gravity (CG). 'anytime the x-coordinate of CG and CP will not be the same, downforce will create a moment that will tend to rotate the car around an axis parallel to the y one.'

So - with an increase in rear downforce (only) the moment when the car rotates (squats at the rear) happens earlier in the acceleration phase of the corner.

[HDTVKSS]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

If it helps the discussion(s) about aero benefits, two good articles can be found at:
r.

This is actually quite a good explanation - im going to put my hand up as having misread the original quote as being low speed corners - so thats on me!

Anyways, looking forward to further bleating if / when this magically doesnt solve all their woes.

Probably about time to go with BOP like the rest of the world does....

[bluesport]

Originally Posted by HDTVKSS

This is actually quite a good explanation - im going to put my hand up as having misread the original quote as being low speed corners - so thats on me!

Anyways, looking forward to further bleating if / when this magically doesnt solve all their woes.

Probably about time to go with BOP like the rest of the world does....

Agree, BOP would be better.

[Mixer]

the parity review determined that there was “a minor difference in rear downforce of the Mustang and its performance in the braking zone,” according to Supercars’ statement.

https://www.speedcafe.com/2023/07/06...XdfuqceE4DY4ao

[V8 Fireworks]

Calling 30kg loss or 18% loss of total downforce under braking as "minor" is extreme spin by Supercars. A very strange choice of words.

Oh well at least that hopefully is fixed now and they can move on to making the engines 100% equivalent.

[Ares]

Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks

Calling 30kg loss or 18% loss of total downforce under braking as "minor" is extreme spin by Supercars. A very strange choice of words.

Oh well at least that hopefully is fixed now and they can move on to making the engines 100% equivalent.

About the same as the lead placed into the roof of the Gen2 Mustang. You were not supportive of any changes being made mid-season back then, if I remember you didn't even want any testing done. You are more supportive this time?

[bluesport]

Originally Posted by Ares

About the same as the lead placed into the roof of the Gen2 Mustang. You were not supportive of any changes being made mid-season back then, if I remember you didn't even want any testing done. You are more supportive this time?

Supercars have to be consistant, the processes that were followed in Gen 2 now have to be followed in Gen 3.

[Ares]

Originally Posted by bluesport

Supercars have to be consistant, the processes that were followed in Gen 2 now have to be followed in Gen 3.

Sounds good. I will have to go back in the history and refresh my memory. I can remember calls to change panel work on cars when the ZB came on line, but then a year later it was all NO NO NO you can touch our cheater Mustang there is noting to see here, no parity issues here, don't even do any testing. I think 2018 test test test and make changes. 2019 No testing and no changes needed. That was Gen2. This year test test test and make changes. If the Mustang starts winning everything for the rest of the year are we all going to be singing from a same songbook? Supercars have to be consistent, but we don't ah.

[bluesport]

Originally Posted by Ares

Sounds good. I will have to go back in the history and refresh my memory. I can remember calls to change panel work on cars when the ZB came on line, but then a year later it was all NO NO NO you can touch our cheater Mustang there is noting to see here, no parity issues here, don't even do any testing. I think 2018 test test test and make changes. 2019 No testing and no changes needed. That was Gen2. This year test test test and make changes. If the Mustang starts winning everything for the rest of the year are we all going to be singing from a same songbook? Supercars have to be consistent, but we don't ah.

I think in 2019 there were big changes to the mustang mid-season and although Scotty still managed to win the championship in 2019/20 it was slim pickings after that in 2021/22.