Miller on merger attempt

[BootsOntheSide]

Originally Posted by mountainstar

Oh John you're so melodramatic. I'm being very rational and always have been. Why not find the middle ground so peace can be found?

The irl has failed. It's had 12 years and it's on it's knees. Indy used to be a great event that took up the month of may. There is no innovation, few drivers of interest with many leaving for nascar left and right, pole day and bump day are DEAD like a ghost town, sponsors are drying up left and right, Homestead and Watkins Glen are about to get the boot, Honda might be out the door etc, TV rating suck, etc.

It had it's chance and has failed big time.

ChampCar is worse off than the IRL. It may be a shadow of what it once was, but Indy still attracts more quality entries/TV and press coverage/attendance than the whole ChampCar schedule put together. Series-funded cars and paydrivers make up part of the IRL grid, but almost all the ChampCar grid. ChampCar has gradually lost almost everything it had since 1996, the IRL has had several growth periods. The people who were important in US open-wheel racing in 1996-1999 are all over the place (NASCAR and F1 have sucked up a few, while guys like Patrick have retired), but the highest number are in IRL. What does ChampCar have that IRL doesn't have, or that is worth $100m plus up to 18 free cars?

[Mekola]

The merger between Champ Cars and IRL is very attractive, I want it too, but if I could put a small suggestion: they should break the spec-series mentality.
It would be great if Dallara AND Panoz were the two chassis providers for an unified series.

[f1manoz]

Originally Posted by indycool

luke, there will be an Indianapolis 500 if they hafta run garden tractors in it.

Actually, when open wheel racing dies in the United States, the tin-tops will run in the Indianapolis 500. It'll happen if there isn't a merger...

[Leighton Irwin]

I've pretty well stayed out of this till now. I have been around a long time. I gophered for Ken Brenn with the late Bob Harkey as driver. I knew Bob Hurt quite well and visited him in his apt. in Daytona. I knew Frankie DelRoy and the USAC guys.
In my opinion neither side is very strong but TG is in the better position and holding at least 3 aces in the 500.
The Hulmans ran the Indy 500 their way and neither USAC or CART could do anything about it. Indy did things that went against both USAC and CART rules. This is where TG is coming from: straight from old TH.
TG wanted to be the Bill France Sr. of open wheel racing and run it like old Tony ran Indy, as a dictator. He wasn't and I guess still isn't, content to rule just Indy.
CART gave him a run for his money but fouled up with poor leadership. CC has done worse and every year they seem to make more and more bad decisions.
I do not like TG but when he wins, as seems inevitable, I will watch the races. Hopefully he will run a good series. One worry is that attendance at the ovals is down in almost all venues.
Whatever the outcome open wheel racing is in trouble and I feel it has to be one series. It still will take years to recover and fight the 1000lb gorilla.
If, as seems very possible, there is a major economic downturn all racing will be badly affected.

[f1manoz]

My two cents:

Frankly neither series has anything glowing about it - car counts are low, drivers are leaving for other series, barely any sponsorship support.

The only redeeming factor for the IRL is the Indianapolis 500.

Both are heavily funded by series owners.

Both are full of drivers barely anyone could name anymore.

My personal interest in US open-wheel racing has dropped completely in the past few years. I could really care less about either series. I would still love ChampCar to be how it was 8-10 years ago when it was thriving, but those days are long gone.

I'm not going to go into my opinion of Tony George. That's been done to death.

However, it's clear that a merger is the only sensible option now. Neither series can continue on like this.

[Jimmy Magnusson]

Originally Posted by Mekola

The merger between Champ Cars and IRL is very attractive, I want it too, but if I could put a small suggestion: they should break the spec-series mentality.
It would be great if Dallara AND Panoz were the two chassis providers for an unified series.

Whilst I agree that a spec series is not exactly interesting, competition driving up the prices would be the last thing a merged series would need.

[indycool]

mountainstar, you overstate way too much. After trying a couple years at a two-week Indy program in the '90s, it went back to three weeks because the two were very awkward and the "month of May" term is again more accurate.

Pole Day will be unlikely to have the crowds it had when milestone track records were possible to be set, like 200 mph. But Bump Day, switching from Thursday to Friday, has increased attendance way past what it's ever been, if you've been going to it for awhile.

Saying the IRL has failed after 12 years is just plain untrue. The IRL and the Indianapolis 500 are still going, despite all efforts of CART previously and CC now to blow them up. They have continued unabated with a SPLIT and of course that has had a negative effect toward slowing growth.

No, I don't consider KK, Petit or PG part of the INDY CAR family and Forsythe no longer is. Remember when it was the PPG Indy Car World Series? These guys are NOT running Indy cars.

Of course The Amigos want a successful open wheel series. That's about the only thing you can draw from Gurney's White Paper that might match. Their motives for doing so are still different and the circumstances are different. I want that, too, as do most people on the boards.

In four years, The Amigos have had a Pacific Rim strategy (which resulted in Ansan and Zhuhai), a street racing strategy (which resulted in San Jose, Vegas and Phoenix) and now a European strategy. In four years, it has changed direction three times. So much for what has failed.

[Leighton Irwin]

IC has corrected me. Bob Harkey is alive and well.

[Sev]

Originally Posted by jhansen

I'll interject a few comments on this from the sidelines. I used to follow CART very closely and would be at Laguna every year to watch. After the split, I was less interested, but still watched some of the races. I also had casual interest in the IRL in its early years. I watch neither now and only suffer through some of the news for each series in an attempt to be informed. In my opinion, CC is a joke and the IRL is a joke.

In all honestly, I think you've hit the nail on the head. Without the merger, I would guess both series will die, and probably within the next few years. IRL is becoming a training ground for NASCAR, and CC is just whithering away. Even if they do get things sorted out, they're going to struggle to survive.

KK and TG's powertrips need to be reigned in, or they'll both be down a lot of money. Even they might see the sense in that.

[jhansen]

Originally Posted by Sev

KK and TG's powertrips need to be reigned in, or they'll both be down a lot of money. Even they might see the sense in that.

That's just it though, it's all about the war at this point. In the end most of the fans could care less how a merger takes place as long as it DOES take place.

[luke]

Originally Posted by f1manoz

Actually, when open wheel racing dies in the United States, the tin-tops will run in the Indianapolis 500. It'll happen if there isn't a merger...

Of course, when IRL dies as well as CC if there is no merger, the Indy 500 will become a NASCAR event.

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by BootsOntheSide

What does ChampCar have that IRL doesn't have, or that is worth $100m plus up to 18 free cars?

For starters, 2.65L V8 Turbos, the Panoz, Long Beach, Toronto, Cleveland, Surfers, Portland, Edmonton, Mont Tremblant and a lot of great teams and people.

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by Mekola

The merger between Champ Cars and IRL is very attractive, I want it too, but if I could put a small suggestion: they should break the spec-series mentality.
It would be great if Dallara AND Panoz were the two chassis providers for an unified series.

At the moment, open wheel racing should embrace innovation and open the rules up for other chassis providers. It would help generate some more interest.

[Fogelhund]

Originally Posted by mountainstar

For starters, 2.65L V8 Turbos, the Panoz, Long Beach, Toronto, Cleveland, Surfers, Portland, Edmonton, Mont Tremblant and a lot of great teams and people.

I didn't realize that Cosworth was for sale in this. Otherwise, there is no value to the usage of the engines, nor the Panoz, as much as they are far better (in my opinion) than what the IRL use.

I'm not sure what PE you are proposing for this business, but I'll be generous and give it a 3x. The suggestion is that the combined revenue, net of all costs is $33 million per year to Champcar on the events you've listed. I would be surprised if any money was made to be honest, but if you have access to more accurate numbers, throw them out there.

[indycool]

--The IRL doesn't need the turbos.
--The IRL doesn't need the Panoz DP-01.
--Long Beach would be useful to a merged series.
--Toronto loses money and construction threatens the course.
--Cleveland is great for the race fan, who can see a lot there, but the race loses money, so the IRL doesn't need it.
--Surfers could be useful as a very well-attended and stable event although it doesn't really fall into the IRL's program of North American racing.
--Portland loses money and has for years.
--Edmonton has lost money. Whether it's about to turn the corner in its short maturity, I don't know.
--Mont Tremblant lost money.

And as far as different chassis are concerned, you already saw what great interest was drawn by the DP-01, which was billed as the great saviour of the series.

[mp356a]

Regardless of the outcome, I just have such a hard time dealing with the thought of this guy being involved.
He first claimed that "American-style Racing" only needs an Oval series and gave us a series of oval races, dominated by foreign drivers.
Then he adds road (and street?) races.
What was his original idea again? It just rubs me the wrong way.
I know I am just whining but I wish he'd just go away. There I said it.

[f1manoz]

Originally Posted by indycool

Saying the IRL has failed after 12 years is just plain untrue. The IRL and the Indianapolis 500 are still going, despite all efforts of CART previously and CC now to blow them up. They have continued unabated with a SPLIT and of course that has had a negative effect toward slowing growth.

Based on what George originally wanted, it certainly hasn't been a success:

Apart from the Indy 500, car counts have rarely exceeded that put up by ChampCars. In fact, only since CART going bankrupt have IRL out-done the other series in terms of car count.

I'm not going to go researching for George's original IRL manifesto, as frankly I cannot be bothered. But from what I can remember:

Tony George's original idea of an oval based series (with perhaps a road course or two) was a lie. He's now got plenty of road races on the calendar - including street courses which frankly he despised.

In 2007, I count St Petersburg (street course), Watkins Glen (road course), Mid-Ohio (road course), Infineon Raceway (road course) and Belle Isle (street course).

Hang on a second, this is starting to look like the old CART series he despised. :noes:

Tony George's original idea of a grid full of Americans with only a handful of foreign drivers was a lie. Apart from Sam Hornish Jr (and maybe the latest Andretti), there have been few successful American drivers. Particularly those that were there in 1996. Where have most of them gone now? Oh, that's right, NASCAR. Or Grand-Am. Or the ALMS.

The IRL have Honda supporting them at the moment, but all they have to do is give notice that they will pull-out and suddenly the IRL isn't looking as strong as everyone wants to believe.

The claim ChampCar tried to 'blow them up' is ridiculous. Tony didn't want to play ball. The players in ChampCar followed suit.

We may be raking over old ground, but it was Tony who threw his toys out of the pram, whinged, moaned and said 'I'll just form my own series then'. Then he made his ridiculous rules for the 1996 Indianapolis 500 and the rest is history so to speak...

So ridicule the current ChampCar series all you want. Ridicule the current owners.

But it takes two to tango. And this current harping on about how the current ChampCar owners are contributing to the current crisis and harping on about how Tony George is offering a 'fair deal' is pure BS considering it was his decisions to split open-wheel racing at the end of 1995 that contributed to this whole mess.

[f1manoz]

Originally Posted by indycool

--The IRL doesn't need the turbos.
--The IRL doesn't need the Panoz DP-01.
--Long Beach would be useful to a merged series.
--Toronto loses money and construction threatens the course.
--Cleveland is great for the race fan, who can see a lot there, but the race loses money, so the IRL doesn't need it.
--Surfers could be useful as a very well-attended and stable event although it doesn't really fall into the IRL's program of North American racing.
--Portland loses money and has for years.
--Edmonton has lost money. Whether it's about to turn the corner in its short maturity, I don't know.
--Mont Tremblant lost money.

And as far as different chassis are concerned, you already saw what great interest was drawn by the DP-01, which was billed as the great saviour of the series.

Blah, blah, blah, fishpaste...

The IRL could do with sponsors, a few more well funded teams and drivers, some of ChampCars top events. Not just for the 500, but at every other event.

He could do with some of the teams currently in ChampCar. He could do with some of the well attended events.

The Indianapolis 500 may be a big event, but it isn't everything. And, even then, Tony has to put his hands into his pocket every May just to make sure he has a full grid.

I don't see 33 cars at all the other events. Do you?

Take your head out of the sand and realise neither series is particularly wonderful at the moment. Your continual kiss-assing of the IRL is obviously grating towards quite a few members of this forum.

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by f1manoz

Based on what George originally wanted, it certainly hasn't been a success:

Apart from the Indy 500, car counts have rarely exceeded that put up by ChampCars. In fact, only since CART going bankrupt have IRL out-done the other series in terms of car count.

I'm not going to go researching for George's original IRL manifesto, as frankly I cannot be bothered. But from what I can remember:

Tony George's original idea of an oval based series (with perhaps a road course or two) was a lie. He's now got plenty of road races on the calendar - including street courses which frankly he despised.

In 2007, I count St Petersburg (street course), Watkins Glen (road course), Mid-Ohio (road course), Infineon Raceway (road course) and Belle Isle (street course).

Hang on a second, this is starting to look like the old CART series he despised. :noes:

Tony George's original idea of a grid full of Americans with only a handful of foreign drivers was a lie. Apart from Sam Hornish Jr (and maybe the latest Andretti), there have been few successful American drivers. Particularly those that were there in 1996. Where have most of them gone now? Oh, that's right, NASCAR. Or Grand-Am. Or the ALMS.

The IRL have Honda supporting them at the moment, but all they have to do is give notice that they will pull-out and suddenly the IRL isn't looking as strong as everyone wants to believe.

The claim ChampCar tried to 'blow them up' is ridiculous. Tony didn't want to play ball. The players in ChampCar followed suit.

We may be raking over old ground, but it was Tony who threw his toys out of the pram, whinged, moaned and said 'I'll just form my own series then'. Then he made his ridiculous rules for the 1996 Indianapolis 500 and the rest is history so to speak...

So ridicule the current ChampCar series all you want. Ridicule the current owners.

But it takes two to tango. And this current harping on about how the current ChampCar owners are contributing to the current crisis and harping on about how Tony George is offering a 'fair deal' is pure BS considering it was his decisions to split open-wheel racing at the end of 1995 that contributed to this whole mess.

Well said, well said.

[2112]

F1`s post is spot on, but harping on the same points for years won`t change anything. I think TG was lacking in his "vision", and is still a few brains cells too low.......but seriously, it`s time to move on and let it go.
Deal with what is today`s reality and make the best of it....you don`t have to agree with the managment to watch a sport, just ask Nascar and F1 fans.

[Alex K]

Yeah, he did it, he did that, but according to Walker and Haas they look forward to ICS as a product with future. Why? Two stalwards of CCWS want to split with CC? Of course crapwagon.com attender reply with, we can take two Atlantics teams... Yeah good luck.

Sorry mates but if KK and JF want money, big money for their product it's better to Tony and his product to let them bleed out or advice the likes of Walker and Haas to jump the fence. CC is not more worth than its assets few years back.

[luke]

Originally Posted by f1manoz

Based on what George originally wanted, it certainly hasn't been a success:

Apart from the Indy 500, car counts have rarely exceeded that put up by ChampCars. In fact, only since CART going bankrupt have IRL out-done the other series in terms of car count.

I'm not going to go researching for George's original IRL manifesto, as frankly I cannot be bothered. But from what I can remember:

Tony George's original idea of an oval based series (with perhaps a road course or two) was a lie. He's now got plenty of road races on the calendar - including street courses which frankly he despised.

In 2007, I count St Petersburg (street course), Watkins Glen (road course), Mid-Ohio (road course), Infineon Raceway (road course) and Belle Isle (street course).

Hang on a second, this is starting to look like the old CART series he despised. :noes:

Tony George's original idea of a grid full of Americans with only a handful of foreign drivers was a lie. Apart from Sam Hornish Jr (and maybe the latest Andretti), there have been few successful American drivers. Particularly those that were there in 1996. Where have most of them gone now? Oh, that's right, NASCAR. Or Grand-Am. Or the ALMS.

The IRL have Honda supporting them at the moment, but all they have to do is give notice that they will pull-out and suddenly the IRL isn't looking as strong as everyone wants to believe.

The claim ChampCar tried to 'blow them up' is ridiculous. Tony didn't want to play ball. The players in ChampCar followed suit.

We may be raking over old ground, but it was Tony who threw his toys out of the pram, whinged, moaned and said 'I'll just form my own series then'. Then he made his ridiculous rules for the 1996 Indianapolis 500 and the rest is history so to speak...

So ridicule the current ChampCar series all you want. Ridicule the current owners.

But it takes two to tango. And this current harping on about how the current ChampCar owners are contributing to the current crisis and harping on about how Tony George is offering a 'fair deal' is pure BS considering it was his decisions to split open-wheel racing at the end of 1995 that contributed to this whole mess.

Anyone who doesn't have a clue, read this great post!

[Kieran20]

Originally Posted by indycool

--The IRL doesn't need the turbos.
--The IRL doesn't need the Panoz DP-01.
--Long Beach would be useful to a merged series.
--Toronto loses money and construction threatens the course.
--Cleveland is great for the race fan, who can see a lot there, but the race loses money, so the IRL doesn't need it.
--Surfers could be useful as a very well-attended and stable event although it doesn't really fall into the IRL's program of North American racing.
--Portland loses money and has for years.
--Edmonton has lost money. Whether it's about to turn the corner in its short maturity, I don't know.
--Mont Tremblant lost money.

And as far as different chassis are concerned, you already saw what great interest was drawn by the DP-01, which was billed as the great saviour of the series.

The DP01 isa far better car that thoseindy cars, and in terms of future term racing its the car to have. an oval version would be a good idea. then thereisa good car to use.

honesly,the old lolas were quicker than the indy cars, they look shocking, and dont really perform.

Champ car will die if they dont merge, indy car will die if they dont merge, both series is in danger of dying, so your comments on how indy needs nothing is rubbish. its needs all the help it can get as well as champ car. they are both loosing tons of money each year.

the only thing that is holding indycar together is the 500, without it, it would bein aright state.

[Kieran20]

Originally Posted by f1manoz

Based on what George originally wanted, it certainly hasn't been a success:

Apart from the Indy 500, car counts have rarely exceeded that put up by ChampCars. In fact, only since CART going bankrupt have IRL out-done the other series in terms of car count.

I'm not going to go researching for George's original IRL manifesto, as frankly I cannot be bothered. But from what I can remember:

Tony George's original idea of an oval based series (with perhaps a road course or two) was a lie. He's now got plenty of road races on the calendar - including street courses which frankly he despised.

In 2007, I count St Petersburg (street course), Watkins Glen (road course), Mid-Ohio (road course), Infineon Raceway (road course) and Belle Isle (street course).

Hang on a second, this is starting to look like the old CART series he despised. :noes:

Tony George's original idea of a grid full of Americans with only a handful of foreign drivers was a lie. Apart from Sam Hornish Jr (and maybe the latest Andretti), there have been few successful American drivers. Particularly those that were there in 1996. Where have most of them gone now? Oh, that's right, NASCAR. Or Grand-Am. Or the ALMS.

The IRL have Honda supporting them at the moment, but all they have to do is give notice that they will pull-out and suddenly the IRL isn't looking as strong as everyone wants to believe.

The claim ChampCar tried to 'blow them up' is ridiculous. Tony didn't want to play ball. The players in ChampCar followed suit.

We may be raking over old ground, but it was Tony who threw his toys out of the pram, whinged, moaned and said 'I'll just form my own series then'. Then he made his ridiculous rules for the 1996 Indianapolis 500 and the rest is history so to speak...

So ridicule the current ChampCar series all you want. Ridicule the current owners.

But it takes two to tango. And this current harping on about how the current ChampCar owners are contributing to the current crisis and harping on about how Tony George is offering a 'fair deal' is pure BS considering it was his decisions to split open-wheel racing at the end of 1995 that contributed to this whole mess.

too true mate. well said.

[indycool]

Oh.