|
||||||||||
|
||||||||||
21 Feb 2023, 21:05 (Ref:4144426) | #51 | |||
Race Official
20KPINAL
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 23,815
|
Quote:
The difference is there is a direct connection with some of these countries now hosting GPs and human rights abuses. |
|||
__________________
"If you're not winning you're not trying." Colin Chapman. |
21 Feb 2023, 21:19 (Ref:4144428) | #52 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 12,561
|
There has been a direct connection with the majority of countries that have hosted GPs throughout the history of the sport. Many people choose to ignore those cases though because it is an inconvenient truth.
|
||
|
21 Feb 2023, 21:38 (Ref:4144431) | #53 | |||
Veteran
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 9,988
|
Quote:
i like sports a lot and am well aware of how that makes me a hypocrite vis a vis my many beliefs about climate change, overconsumption, human rights, the power that those with money can and should have etc etc. i can own up to that much at least. |
|||
__________________
Home, is where I want to be but I guess I'm already there I come home, she lifted up her wings guess that this must be the place |
21 Feb 2023, 21:46 (Ref:4144433) | #54 | |||
Veteran
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 9,988
|
Quote:
these messages need to be shoved into the faces of people like me right? |
|||
__________________
Home, is where I want to be but I guess I'm already there I come home, she lifted up her wings guess that this must be the place |
21 Feb 2023, 22:37 (Ref:4144437) | #55 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 6,175
|
Quote:
Richard |
||
__________________
To paraphrase Mark Twain... "I'm sorry I wrote such a long post; I didn't have time to write a short one." |
22 Feb 2023, 07:23 (Ref:4144449) | #56 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Apr 2016
Posts: 957
|
I am in the same boat . As a kid , I am ashamed to admit that the South African GP never troubled me , with rampant apartheid and Mandela banged up . I have grown up a lot since and became progressively more disgusted as Ecclestone toadied up to appalling regimes like Putin's Russia (which the stupid old fool still praises) and the slew of medieval absolute monarchs , fat on petro dollars . I hold my nose when I watch GPs there, but am not proud of the fact I still do.
As for this who say international sport and politics don't mix - in a sense they are right , because they are one and the same. Would anybody watch a Russian GP now or one held in Assad's Syria? |
||
|
22 Feb 2023, 14:52 (Ref:4144527) | #57 | ||
Race Official
20KPINAL
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 23,815
|
|||
__________________
"If you're not winning you're not trying." Colin Chapman. |
22 Feb 2023, 15:18 (Ref:4144532) | #58 | |
Veteran
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 12,181
|
All of them, just because you draw a line and say THIS is too much doesn't mean every one of the countries hosting a GP has human rights and human trafficking problems. Many have just decided that those OVER THERE are wrong and ignore the 75 guys at Home Depot each morning.
|
|
|
22 Feb 2023, 15:29 (Ref:4144534) | #59 | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Veteran
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 6,175
|
The question is how to measure. For many it can be a subjective thing. There are groups who try to make objective measurements. Below is data from https://freedomhouse.org/countries/freedom-world/scores (which is a "freedom" score and not directly about "human right abuses") for countries that are hosting 2023 F1 races. I assume a 100 is a perfect score. List is sorted by total score.
Make your own conclusions as to where you see a precipitous drop in score. Richard PS: Top three are Finland, Norway, and Sweden at "100" and bottom three are South Sudan, Syria, and Tibet at "1" Last edited by Richard C; 22 Feb 2023 at 15:39. |
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
__________________
To paraphrase Mark Twain... "I'm sorry I wrote such a long post; I didn't have time to write a short one." |
22 Feb 2023, 15:48 (Ref:4144539) | #60 | |||
Race Official
20KPINAL
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 23,815
|
Quote:
Is it all of them, or a majority? |
|||
__________________
"If you're not winning you're not trying." Colin Chapman. |
22 Feb 2023, 15:59 (Ref:4144544) | #61 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 5,964
|
I believe that most, if not all, of these countries have skeletons in their cupboards, but a lot have ceased those abhorrent activities and most of them did so a long, long time ago. Regretfully, a number of the leaders from some on that list continue to behave in a way that I find to not be in a way that modern countries should act. |
||
|
22 Feb 2023, 16:00 (Ref:4144545) | #62 | |
Veteran
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 6,175
|
||
__________________
To paraphrase Mark Twain... "I'm sorry I wrote such a long post; I didn't have time to write a short one." |
22 Feb 2023, 18:49 (Ref:4144567) | #63 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 6,175
|
Quote:
Richard |
||
__________________
To paraphrase Mark Twain... "I'm sorry I wrote such a long post; I didn't have time to write a short one." |
16 Mar 2023, 18:01 (Ref:4147322) | #64 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 4,687
|
The FIA has refined the system for F1 drivers accruing penalty points that could lead to loss of licence.
On the face of it, seems logical and a good move, hopefully plays out as planned. |
||
__________________
“We’re far from having too much horsepower…[m]y definition of too much horsepower is when all four wheels are spinning in every gear.” ― Mark Donohue |
19 Mar 2023, 11:45 (Ref:4148267) | #65 | ||
Team Crouton
20KPINAL
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 39,962
|
Agreed. To get a race ban for a minor track limits offence that took you up to the 12 would have been pretty absurd.
|
||
__________________
280 days...... |
20 Mar 2023, 08:25 (Ref:4148394) | #66 | |
Veteran
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 2,216
|
Another fiasco from the FIA who persist in running the regulations side of a global sport, like a school sports day.
Time for a major appraisal on decisions made during races, again! |
|
|
20 Mar 2023, 08:31 (Ref:4148396) | #67 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Apr 2014
Posts: 566
|
Is it any cannot touch the car or all cannot touch the car whilst serving a penalty?
|
||
|
20 Mar 2023, 11:12 (Ref:4148421) | #68 | ||
Team Crouton
20KPINAL
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 39,962
|
Neither. It is (I believe) you cannot work on the car while the penalty is being served. I stand to be corrected but I don't think the regs say anything about just 'touching' the car. You'd like to think that common sense would enable a differentiation to be made between touching the car and working on it, but it seems not. What if a tyre man slips and grabs the rear wing to prevent himself from falling. Is that working on the car? We all know it isn't. I would also say a jackman who has the jack ready to lift the car isn't working on the car, he is preparing to work on the car.
|
||
__________________
280 days...... |
20 Mar 2023, 12:08 (Ref:4148434) | #69 | |||
Veteran
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 5,718
|
Quote:
I am interested to see how this is tightened up or clarified, but at least we have something to discuss in the quiet times before the next race! |
|||
__________________
Incognito: An Italian phrase meaning Nice Gearchange! |
20 Mar 2023, 12:51 (Ref:4148446) | #70 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 9,988
|
Question…Where do they draw the line between touching and working when the car is under park ferme regulations?
The cars have to be moved, stopped, held in place so there must be some touching allowed so there is on some level some common sense interpretations of the rules here? |
||
__________________
Home, is where I want to be but I guess I'm already there I come home, she lifted up her wings guess that this must be the place |
20 Mar 2023, 13:47 (Ref:4148469) | #71 | |||
Veteran
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 5,964
|
Quote:
I do believe that they pretty well nailed down the permissible actions during park ferme in previous years. The teams are permitted to do certain things on the cars, whilst they have to seek authorisation to carry out other work which may then carry a time penalty. What puzzles me somewhat is that each garage has, or certainly used to have, an official FIA observer permanently placed therein, and it should have been easy for Aston to ask or be told what they could or could not do under those circumstances because he should know the rules intimately. |
|||
|
20 Mar 2023, 14:19 (Ref:4148477) | #72 | |
Veteran
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 5,296
|
The simple solution to "not working on the car" is to stop the teams self-policing their penalties, and bring back the stop/go box that's used in club racing. Simple, uncomplicated, nobody near the car except the person doing the timing. It could even be automated - red light, car stops, timer starts, timer expires, green light.
So simple that it obviously has no place in F1. |
|
__________________
Walk a mile in someone else's shoes. When they realise you have, you'll be a mile away and you'll have their shoes. |
20 Mar 2023, 14:32 (Ref:4148478) | #73 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 6,175
|
I watched this video earlier and I think it is well done.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zhRdmmJEeeQ A few takeaways. 1. It sounds like there has been a general agreement (maybe some type of gentlemen's agreement that is not written in the rules?) in which it has been allowed for the front jack to touch the car when serving a penalty (see more on my thoughts on this below) 2. The argument for the front jack touching is that it "used to guide the car's position into the pit box". 3. Evidence to support AM putting the rear jack in position seems be based upon the current "agreement" that the front jack can touch the car. With there being no current agreement on front vs. rear with one being more allowable than the other. In other words, if the front jack can touch, why not the rear? 4. This has been tried to be resolved, but apparently there is no "agreement" on the solution. 5. An interesting comment in the video around 5:08 "shouldn't expect anything else from teams as they are ruthless entities that will not hesitate to break from established convention if it serves a competitive purpose" In short, the rules and/or enforcement are poor, so teams take advantage of it. As to the topic of "work on" vs "touch". It is interesting that we are getting into semantics. I have looked up some definitions for "work" and most call out a version of "effort done in order to achieve a purpose or result" I would say that positioning the jack in the right place fits that description. As I mentioned in the race thread, I think there is a massive slippery slope if positioning tools is allowed. Why not allow them to place guns on tire nuts? Why not allow hands on tires to "prepare" for their removal? What if debris from another car or a visor tear off is stuck in an intake. Can I remove it without "touching" or "working on" the car (the debris is not from OUR car.. how am I "working on" our car if I am touching parts from someone else?) Quote:
And when explaining the regulation I would call out primary purposes of actions. For example.. the front jack. Is the primary purpose of the jack to guide the car in or lift the car to allow removal of tires? The primary function is clearly to lift the car. Guiding drivers into the pit box is secondary and frankly not required. Drivers are capable of putting a car into a box (well... clearly AM drivers struggle... especially at the start of races but the point stands that they are able to stop in a box). But the argument that front jacks are "special" is bogus IMHO. If serving a penalty the front jack man would be asked to not engage the car as it enters the box. If the driver runs beyond the box and hits the front jack, the jack man would be required to pull the jack away from the car and then re-engage AFTER the penalty is served. Generally speaking there should be visible air between anyone and anything and the car while serving the penalty (non competitive accidental touches notwithstanding) Richard |
||
__________________
To paraphrase Mark Twain... "I'm sorry I wrote such a long post; I didn't have time to write a short one." |
20 Mar 2023, 14:39 (Ref:4148479) | #74 | ||
Race Official
20KPINAL
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 23,815
|
They are trying to minimise the effect of the 5 second penalty, by having it take place when the car comes in for the tyre stop.
Instead of giving Alonso a 5 second penalty, why didn't they give him a drive-thru, which needs to be served within 2 laps of notice being given? The question of whether the car can be touched, or not, would never arise. Last edited by bjohnsonsmith; 20 Mar 2023 at 14:46. |
||
__________________
"If you're not winning you're not trying." Colin Chapman. |
20 Mar 2023, 14:58 (Ref:4148481) | #75 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 6,175
|
Quote:
Richard |
||
__________________
To paraphrase Mark Twain... "I'm sorry I wrote such a long post; I didn't have time to write a short one." |
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
Will there come a time when there will be not more rule change? | Greenback | Formula One | 13 | 26 Nov 2006 22:45 |
Is there another Clark/Senna/Schumacher out there? | Armco Bender | Formula One | 35 | 27 Aug 2006 01:16 |
Is there life out there in Club Single Seater Land? | SpawnyWhippet | Club Level Single Seaters | 37 | 15 Nov 2005 12:18 |
There are some odd people out there | Craner Curves | National & International Single Seaters | 4 | 25 May 2004 22:38 |
How many disabled racing drivers are there / have there been? | BootsOntheSide | National & International Single Seaters | 29 | 31 Oct 2003 14:58 |