[WEC] WEC 2021 season

[claude2cv]

Brands Hatch was brilliant in Group C days, I used to go there, Silverstone and Le Mans.

[TF110]

I don't mind the track, I'm just thinking how the organizers (ACO) think. The layout, the runoffs, the pit facilities etc. I don't know how they would officially view it but probably not favorably.

[chernaudi]

Brands Hatch may be Grade 2 and the ACO have had to swallow their pride on sticking to Grade 1 Tilkedromes (Shanghai being replaced by Kyalami, which is currently Grade 2, and Sebring being Grade 2), but I do see Brands as having some of the issues that Sonoma started having in the mid-2000s with the ALMS and even Grand Am.

Both are classic layouts and fun to drive either in a game or probably in real life for those who love track days. But at the same time, neither seems insanely well suited for multi-class racing.

Both Brands and Sonoma have tons of choke points and relatively few clean overtaking spots. Sadly, fun to drive layouts don't always promote the best racing, and nowadays there seems to be a need for balance between those two extremes.

[Purist]

The main tricky spot at Brands looks to be the first apex at Westfield. The secondary one would probably be the apex at Sheene. Watching some British GT again, I was actually slightly surprised how wide they take the second Westfield apex, as well as Dingle Dell, so there's more practical room there than it seemed for the Protos to get through traffic on that stretch than I initially thought. The most similar place after that would be Graham Hill, but you definitely don't have the same sort of head of steam there coming out of Druids as you do out on the GP Loop.

At Donington, the only really potentially nasty one is the kink at Starkey's Bridge; just pay a bit of attention to not cut the other guy off too quickly, or try three-wide there and on into Schwantz. GTs can stay to the right at the top of the Craners, and then quickly move left at the bend before the Old Hairpin. So impeding of the faster cars can be fairly minimal there. You've got clear sight from McLeans into Coppice to see what's ahead, and once you're past the first apex, there are two usable lanes for the rest and out onto the straight.

Zandvoort might meander around more than Sebring as an overall proportion of the lap. Speaking of Sebring, it's on the WEC calendar now, and has its notable choke points. Forcing the issue at Bishop (T14) is likely to not end much better than doing the same in Westfield at Brands. We've all seen how messy traffic can be through the Collier bends there between Conningham (T10) and Tower (T13). Less hairy, but still needing care is the Gendebien-Le Mans sequence. You can't just slam on the power in an LMP coming out of the Safety Pin if there's traffic close ahead, and even the Fangio Esse requires some discretion. Finally, if you don't make the overtake on entry, Sunset can be more fun than you bargained for; the same applies when trying to make a move going through T1 at full tilt. And again, this is a circuit that's already on the WEC's slate.

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

Brands Hatch may be Grade 2 and the ACO have had to swallow their pride on sticking to Grade 1 Tilkedromes (Shanghai being replaced by Kyalami, which is currently Grade 2, and Sebring being Grade 2), but I do see Brands as having some of the issues that Sonoma started having in the mid-2000s with the ALMS and even Grand Am.

Both are classic layouts and fun to drive either in a game or probably in real life for those who love track days. But at the same time, neither seems insanely well suited for multi-class racing.

Both Brands and Sonoma have tons of choke points and relatively few clean overtaking spots. Sadly, fun to drive layouts don't always promote the best racing, and nowadays there seems to be a need for balance between those two extremes.

A small comment on Brands, which doesn’t really change the point here. Brands is fine for multi class racing (enjoyed it myself), but not really for modern multi class at prototype speed.

[chernaudi]

Same problem that Sonoma started having in the mid-2000s. Fine for multi-class racing, but not at the speeds that even those LMP1 cars were capable of back then.

Question here, though, it would it in theory with LMP1 Hypercar being likely slowed to current LMP2 pace, would it be enough to make them more suited than the current cars at Brands? Problem is that a combination of speed and not having clean overtaking zones doesn't help the cause. I'm surprised with the current LMP1 EOT/BOP situation that we're not having more stack ups with LMP1s and LMP2s. LMP2s have gotten faster this season because of tire development, while LMP1s have been slowed by ballast increases and power cuts.

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by claude2cv

Brands Hatch was brilliant in Group C days, I used to go there, Silverstone and Le Mans.

It was indeed. I saw Group C there (and at Silverstone) several times. It was always warmer at Brands too!

[Purist]

i think there's some misattribution on a number of levels there, plus we don't help ourselves by getting locked into certain preconceptions.

If the argument is that the cars are, or were, too fast, here's something to look at.

Sears Point Lap Records:
2.520-mile Layout
GTP: 1:21.409 (111.437 mph), 1990
Lights: 1:29.064 (101.859 mph), 1990
LMP900: 1:20.683 (112.440 mph), 2000
GTS: 1:30.621 (100.109 mph), 1999
2.530-mile Layout
LMP900/675/1: 1:21.688 (111.497 mph), 2005
GTS/1: 1:28.042 (103.451 mph), 2004

So it seems, if there is an issue, it's not outright speed, but how lap time is made, and/or the interplay between how it's made within the different classes. In general, you'd expect that the focus has turned more toward aero relative to power, and hence, top-end speeds have dropped while cornering speeds have increased. In a number of cases, the cars have also gotten heavier, which means the ability to lay into the throttle and cleanly slice between cars has quite possibly been reduced.

And just to get this out of the way, those Grand-Am races at Sears Point were DP-only affairs, and those were big, heavy, draggy, comparatively under-powered machines, a bit like the old IRL Indy Cars, which weren't that great at road racing.

The changes to the track in 2001-03 maybe hurt things a little. Taking the front stretch off of the drag strip made Turns 12 and 1 more abrupt, and more confined with the walls there on both sides. Also, in 2002, the ALMS started using the "Budweiser Bottleneck", that extra lobe there on the exit of the Turn 7 hairpin; this is what increased official lap length slightly. Still, the main choke point is just that squiggly bit there between Turns 7 and 8. Turn 10 is single-file, but you're through there pretty quickly. The rest, while a bit on the tight side, can be negotiated two-abreast, even Turn 1; actually, it rather reminds me of the madness in the turns at Mosport, especially during the 2007 and '08 ALMS races when you had the LMP1s (mainly the Audis) and LMP2s zipping around the GTs, and they had to make that work without any paved run-off outside Turns 1, 2, and 8.

One absurdity now is, it's been outright stated that newer tracks are designed to give some driving challenge, while also offering at least a few clean, conventional overtaking opportunities. The funny thing is, well, how's that been working out for F1? (They're the main ones getting these new tracks designed for them, after all.) But this can play into a certain mindset, and what I mentioned earlier about not getting locked in, because the racing suffers if drivers become less creative in their race craft, and stick to these preset, conventional notions.

Furthermore, we end up screwing ourselves in the expectations game when we take this "conventional overtaking points" philosophy too much as gospel, analyzing every track too closely, and even demanding that these sorts of corners, complexes, and setups be made common place on tracks that are going to continue to be used.

I might add, having too confined a track design philosophy will lead to even more homogenized car design to take better advantage of the one, anointed style of racing that has been chosen. Track design, at least at the top levels, has been criticized for some time already for being too homogeneous in nature.

There's also just the general issue in racing that, I think drivers have become less cooperative overall. You see the guys make it through the old, fast, first iteration of the Portland chicane during the 1984 CART race; that wouldn't happen today, there'd be a crash, like there usually is in the current version of the Festival Curves basically every year. In addition, while everyone has a "right" to be out there, as long as they're not an undue hazard, I'd say there's been more of a tendency in the last 10-15 years for drivers in slower cars, whether in the same or another class, to be more strident, and even sometimes belligerent, when the leading cars come up on them. More of a sportsman's attitude, as opposed to that of a generic celebrity, would be a good thing, and a driver can do that without being a pushover.

And a final note on the current LMP1/LMP2 situation. Even 20 years ago, it seems like the big stack-ups tend to happen at those conventional overtaking points, where you have the large compression of the accordion effect into a heavy braking zone. Just a fun little observation. And again, I have to laugh with the way talk of closing rates has changed. Now, they're probably down to saying a 30-mph differential is huge, whereas at the start of the ALMS, it was 50 mph. And then you think back to the '60s and '70s, when the closing rates, particularly at Le Mans, could be 100 mph. It certainly provides an interesting perspective.

[chernaudi]

Well, you also (for LM) have to remember what Derek Bell said in 2011. You had more straight blasts without chicanes and there was a huge top speed difference between most of the classes. Nowadays, the biggest difference between classes is cornering and braking ability.

[Purist]

I remember that, during the caution for McNish's shunt with Beltoise, I think it was, in the Dunlop Esses.

"I don't think doing 240 mph on the straight is a problem." Thank you Derek Bell.

[GT6]

i would love the WEC to go to Brands hatch as it is less than 10 miles from me.

[Anyopenroad]

Originally Posted by GT6

i would love the WEC to go to Brands hatch as it is less than 10 miles from me.

It would be a shambles. Too narrow, no overtaking, slightest collision means an off and a safety car. I have never seen a race there which did not have a car needing to be extracted from the sand at the first corner.

It is also accessed by one road and gets horribly jammed at even medium sized meetings. I no longer go to BTCC race days there after twice spending over an hour just getting out of the car park.

Brands is pretty and nicely run. But it is very far from being able to host top flight racing. The SRO GT3 sprints have been embarrassing the last few years and it seems DTM was trying to go elsewhere.

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by Anyopenroad

Brands is pretty and nicely run. But it is very far from being able to host top flight racing. The SRO GT3 sprints have been embarrassing the last few years and it seems DTM was trying to go elsewhere.

Having only been there once in about 15 years (British GT this year), I'm wondering what has changed since the days of regular F1 and WSC etc that makes the circuit now so unsuitable?

[Adam43]

The cars. Safety standards. Demands of the fans.

It’s rarely mentioned round here, but it’s all gone to pot.

[Aysedasi]

I did have a nice breakfast when I was there. That must count, surely?

[Adam43]

Of course. They should race at Snetterton

[Deleted]

"Why not" as answer to 3 of the 4 classes having spec tires

https://sportscar365.com/lemans/wec/single-tire-supplier-for-gte-pro-unlikely/

“On my side, I’m open for GTE-Am to become a control tire. We would always entertain it. Why not? Because it’s not different from Blancpain [GT Series] or any [other customer racing],” Bonardel said

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by Aysedasi

Having only been there once in about 15 years (British GT this year), I'm wondering what has changed since the days of regular F1 and WSC etc that makes the circuit now so unsuitable?

Attitudes to safety is a big one. Multi-class racing too. Although WSC was, it wasn't like LMP1 down to GTE-Am differences. And we've got a lot of Am drivers in the series now.

They'd 'fit' around Brands, but I think it'd be a pretty bad race tbh.

[Mike E]

Originally Posted by Adam43

The cars. Safety standards. Demands of the fans.

It’s rarely mentioned round here, but it’s all gone to pot.

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

Attitudes to safety is a big one. Multi-class racing too. Although WSC was, it wasn't like LMP1 down to GTE-Am differences. And we've got a lot of Am drivers in the series now.

They'd 'fit' around Brands, but I think it'd be a pretty bad race tbh.

Yes, I guess you're right, we only had C1 and C2 in those days and mostly pro drivers....

[chernaudi]

I think that's a point that was missed, by me among others. In the Group C days, there was just two prototype classes heavily populated by pros and quick gentlemen who were a match for the pros.

Today, you have four classes, two prototype and two GT classes. And even though it's not as bad as it could be most of the time, I'm still weary of some of the am/gentleman drivers, and I'm just a fan on the outside looking in.

There's plenty of good, even fast, gentleman drivers out there and good rookies who are low ranked on the medal system not because of talent but just inexperience and youth. But it takes only one bad apple to possibly spoil the whole bunch. Or one bad move to spoil someone's race in this case.

Mind you, we've seen some Platinum rated pros make some mistakes and bad calls on their part that ruined their own or someone else's race, too. It's called being human, and we're not infallible.

[Purist]

It doesn't sound any worse than a number of the tracks on the IMSA slate. Brands is no narrower than Road America; Mosport, VIR, or Sebring away from the pits; and the Daytona infield. And actually, the Daytona banking seems narrower than I expected watching the start of the 2019 race again. i imagine it started at 40 ft, but the SAFER barrier takes 3 out of that, so 37 ft wide.

Any of the tracks that are faster than Sebring have such a large proportion of high-speed corners that any meaningful collision will also lead to an off, and almost certainly a pace car here in the States. BTW, the tracks faster than Sebring are VIR, Road Atlanta, Road America, Mosport Park, Watkins Glen, and Daytona.

Bad access, or poorly managed egress, isn't uncommon at race meetings. Getting out of Watkins Glen after the 2009 IndyCar race was a mess. And old road courses that haven't been built over by now have a tendency to be out in rather more rural areas.

As for the cars, are the Hypercars going to be particularly faster than the DPIs? The LMP2s may be somewhat slower even than the IMSA crop. The GTEs may well be right in line with the pace of the old C2s, and both IMSA and WEC will have 3 works teams there. GTD isn't massively slower than GTLM, either, and that's not a complexity that the WEC even has to worry about.

I'm sorry, but too often I feel like I could transliterate "safety standards" and "demands of fans", in WEC jargon, into "not Grade 1, so not good enough for us".

Finally, ALMS worked at Mosport in 2007-08. There wasn't any paved run-off there yet, and it was spectacular to watch, especially in the high-speed corners.

Yes, the Andretti Straight is longer than the run from Surtees to Hawthorn, but it isn't exactly a straight; don't forget why the 2010 ALMS race was red-flagged. Aside from that, the pit straight at Mosport is shorter than the front stretch at Brands. You have a bit of a straight from T1 to T2 at Mosport, but the same applies to the run from Paddock Hill to Druids. You then get more of a straight from Druids to Graham hill than you do from T2 to T3 at Mosport. You don't really get a straight particularly from T3 to Moss at Mosport, but do between Hill and Surtees at Brands. And T4 at Mosport is somewhat notorious itself; even in 2017, you had the #10 Cadillac take out one of the Corvettes there trying to go three-wide.

Beyond that, you don't really get any straights at Mosport, but you do get a short one from Hawthorn to Westfield, a "straight" from Westfield (1st apex) to Sheene, and you also have Clearways. Furthermore, Dingle Dell/Sheene and Stirling's are eased and the straight between them is longer than it was in the Group C days.

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by Purist

I'm sorry, but too often I feel like I could transliterate "safety standards" and "demands of fans", in WEC jargon, into "not Grade 1, so not good enough for us".

I couldn't disagree more, especially with this line. Many have long advocated for Sebring and Kyalami over Grade 1s. Many would prefer to see Donington over Silverstone. The 'not Grade 1' argument is firmly put to bed now - the next calendar has 3 Grade 2s out of 8.

[Anyopenroad]

Originally Posted by Purist

It doesn't sound any worse than a number of the tracks on the IMSA slate.

I defer to your greater knowledge of US tracks. As for Brands, please take it from someone who goes there 4 or 5 times a year: WEC would be a complete mess. Someone would get punted off at the very first corner and have to be recovered: safety car. Rinse, repeat. There is no run-off, very little overtaking. Even GT3s are too fast for it. DTM tried to get out of their contract. And those are single class events.

I like Brands, it's pretty and old school (and does a great breakfast). BTCC is fun. It's great for club events and historics. But modern top-level racing, sadly not.

[Purist]

Akrapovic, the perception that the FIA WEC still wants to be at Grade 1s to project a certain image isn't going to just magically disappear overnight though. And while I'm pretty darn sure that 1959 will remain F1's only ever visit to Sebring, I'm not ruling out that they'll try to make a return to Kyalami at some point (making that a Grade 1).