LMP1 Privateer entries by 2017-18, your prediction?

[Maelochs]

Originally Posted by TF110

Haha, gotta laugh at the suggestion dpi will be the top class at LM any time soon. Maybe they'll be allowed as say a manufacturer supported customer car, but I don't see a p2 based car with some body kit being the replacement of hybrids.

Not the top class ... the second class, replacing LMP-P.

No American manufacturer wants to spend the kind of money that certain European and Asian companies are willing to blow, on a race most Americans have never heard of. But ...

Some of those manufacturers wouldn't mind getting a little more press out of the race, particularly if someone else footed most of the bill.

If P1-P dwindles further than the one burning ByKolles entry ... there won't be a class. And I am pretty certain that the IMSA/NASCAR folks have been lobbying long and hard to get some spots on the Le Mans grid.

If more teams decide to burn a lot of cash to chase the P1-Hs, good for them. I don't see it being an easy sell to sponsors, or boards of directors. Rebellion are also tried-and-true racers, and the opted out. Too much cash for too little return, I'd guess.

If we don't see something besides artists' renderings by July ....

[TF110]

Originally Posted by Maelochs

Not the top class ... the second class, replacing LMP-P.

No American manufacturer wants to spend the kind of money that certain European and Asian companies are willing to blow, on a race most Americans have never heard of. But ...

Some of those manufacturers wouldn't mind getting a little more press out of the race, particularly if someone else footed most of the bill.

If P1-P dwindles further than the one burning ByKolles entry ... there won't be a class. And I am pretty certain that the IMSA/NASCAR folks have been lobbying long and hard to get some spots on the Le Mans grid.

If more teams decide to burn a lot of cash to chase the P1-Hs, good for them. I don't see it being an easy sell to sponsors, or boards of directors. Rebellion are also tried-and-true racers, and the opted out. Too much cash for too little return, I'd guess.

If we don't see something besides artists' renderings by July ....

My mistake! I thought you meant the hybrid cars. Private class is not going to officially exist next year since there's only ByKolles. But for 2018, well- that looks like a good time for the entry list to take off.

[carbsmith]

Originally Posted by Maelochs

I expect some permutation of DPi will be suggested for 2019 to replace LMP-P which will be a one-car class at that point.

I predict the 2019 race will consist entirely of current spec P1 cars. About as logical or plausible. They aren't going to make P2 with a slower body kit its own class and it wouldn't have any more cars anyways.

[Mike E]

DPi runs at LMP2 pace by definition. Why would it be a credible LMP1-P replacement?

[truebeliever]

Originally Posted by Mike E

DPi runs at LMP2 pace by definition. Why would it be a credible LMP1-P replacement?

Someone who understands that DPi is American LMP2, it is not LMP1.

That said, perhaps "IF" the ACO drops the compulsory Hybrid for OEM teams in the future, there can be a new LMP1, combining both OEM and Privateer under a Hybrid/fuel flow less set of rules.

That would make sense, that "could" give us bigger P1 grids. So that means the French will not do it.

[Maelochs]

Originally Posted by Mike E

DPi runs at LMP2 pace by definition. Why would it be a credible LMP1-P replacement?

I think IMSA would lobby for a weight break or a power boost ... knowing the GM cars could handle it (and that's where the big money comes from ... )

I know that the DPis were faster at the December tests than they were at the Roar ... so I know that the DPis Could reliably run as a "higher" class, particularly if ACO were to keep the Gibson engine at the power levels it had at the Roar ...

But as far as DPi being a "slower" P2 ... I have yet to see the evidence. Again, check the numbers from the December tests and the Roar.

If ti doesn't work out that way, oh well ... more incorrect Internet speculation. We have all survived plenty off that.

However, my understanding is that NASCAR/IMSA really wants to get DPis on the Le Mans grid, and since they wouldn't be allowed to run as P2s .....

[TF110]

I'm all for them running p1-p! I said that a long time ago. I thought that imsa should align dpi with the class before the new rules were finalized. All they need to do is run as a non-factory team right now aside from the fact that the body kits look like a manufacturer. Maybe they will lift that rule but I doubt it.

[Akrapovic]

I don't see the ACO allowing DPi into P1-L, due to manufacturer involvement, and the political issue of the potential of an outside team with a different rule set beating one of their own cars to a class win. I think you're more likely to get a DPi class at Le Mans, like the old IMSA classes from history. That way the ACO won't be terrified of a DPi beating a P1-L to a class win.

[Maelochs]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

I don't see the ACO allowing DPi into P1-L .... I think you're more likely to get a DPi class at Le Mans, like the old IMSA classes from history. That way the ACO won't be terrified of a DPi beating a P1-L to a class win.

I'd expect them to go that router if they had more than one P1-P (I guess P1-L is the "official terminology.)

If they have ByKolles catching fire at various points around the track with no competition, I think they'd either drop the class or remake it into a DPi class.

I cannot see DPi and P1-L running together--too great a disparity in chassis types, and too much issue with funding sources (I'd assume GM would still want its name in there somewhere, else why even go to Le Mans?)

If P1-L cannot attract more than 2-3 cars, i'd expect maybe a DPi-Enhanced class or something like that--DPis with a weight break or a bigger fuel tank or without IMSA-imposed power limits?

I have no inside info, I have not even fully thought this through ... what I believe is that IMSA will not stop trying to get its cars into the Le Mans line-up, thus leveraging its power and money in North America into even more power and money in the international game.

[Akrapovic]

2018 is really the first opportunity, and by that point they will have more than one car.

I don't see the ACO swallowing their pride and having DPis in the P1-L class. And given the Caddy and Mazda involvement, I'm really not sure they should be anyway.

DPi is a brilliant class. For IMSA. I don't think it meshes well with how the ACO has setup their classes.

[Maelochs]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

2018 is really the first opportunity, and by that point they will have more than one car.

By 2018 they Should have more than one car ... we shall see. if they get a new car or two in 2018, they Should freeze the regs for a couple more seasons, but how often does FIA-ACO do what it should?

I could see them implementing new regs for P1-L starting in 2019 which obsolete the old cars after a season ... seems like their speed.

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

DPi is a brilliant class. For IMSA. I don't think it meshes well with how the ACO has setup their classes.

I agree here completely ... but that is where dollars and lobbying pressure makes strangers into bedfellows.

I'd expect (if a class including DPi were included) that there wouold have to be a cost-cap on manufacturer involvement. After all, I am sure AER sent engineers to ByKolles and Rebellion's pits at every race ... and all Cadillac and Mazda are really doing is supplying engines (as AER did) and a little bodywork ... not ongoing research and development.

By making the ACO-DPi class homologated, they would hold costs down and minimize manufacturer involvement as well.

[Mal]

I would love to see a new 'lightweight' class at Le Mans - Hybrid is not the only way to push new tech surely weight saving and small engines are just as beneficial.

the days of LMP 900 & 675 produced some great racing...

[Akrapovic]

I think there's a bit of rose tints when it comes to LMP675. It was pretty poor throughout the entire existence of it. In the 4 years the 675s ran at Le Mans, only once did it manage to beat the GTS class, and the 3 times it didn't, they finished behind the GT class.

[eps]

There will be cars on offer from BR and Ginetta. Not sure if the BR cars will be customer cars or possibly semi customer cars e.g. SMP.. Ginetta have been signing up a few teams Manor being one.

Can't see Rebellion going back to LMP1 to be honest.

I do think that Peugeot or another manufacturer will be back and possibly another customer car option... Maybe French?

I guess it depends on the regulations, specifically engine options.

Some teams/organisations always seem to be able to find enough money to compete, year on year.. Maybe a Krohn car or a Dempsey entry? That could be interesting!

[Mike E]

Some words here from Lawrence Tomlinson on the Ginetta effort.

http://sportscar365.com/lemans/wec/t...e-for-ginetta/

[Maelochs]

I am still in wait-and-see mode on this one. I have high hopes, but they are based on the high hopes and PR from Ginetta. Teams are interested in committing, but until cash changes hands and chassis are built .... Look how many cars get all the way to wind-tunnel mock-ups or even prototypes and then simply fade away like a child's dream (cheap Dome pun, there, sorry.)

I'd love to see this class attract some interest---back before hybridism was enforced, P1 was a rich and varied class, even if everyone knew that Audi or Peugeot would win and everyone else would be lucky to podium.

I guess if teams were willing to invest back then, it makes as much sense now----even more, as the winners (if not the whole field) will at least get a podium ceremony for their enormous expenditure.

The class has been a bad joke for the past two seasons, with the only suspense being, would one of the three car even finish. However ... can Ginetta carry it alone? Can ByKolles find the cash to compete for yet another couple seasons without any sort of success? Will BR actually build something?

If we don't see something tangible by mid-season, I'd write off the class. if a couple constructors actually construct something by Le Mans .... then maybe there is cause for hope.

[Damian Baldi]

Are the new P2 tubes accepted as P1? or there are different security rules to cover?

[Victor_RO]

Originally Posted by Damian Baldi

Are the new P2 tubes accepted as P1? or there are different security rules to cover?

As far as I know LMP2 tubs have the same dimensions as LMP1 tubs and have to pass the same crash tests.

[Maelochs]

Originally Posted by Victor_RO

As far as I know LMP2 tubs have the same dimensions as LMP1 tubs and have to pass the same crash tests.

Which is way too sensible for FIA, and also gives rise to hope .... theoretically, and P2 chassis is ripe for conversion.

[chernaudi]

The ACO allowed this for years, going back at least to 2006. It wasn't mandatory back then, but several constructors (Courage and Lola mainly) took advantage of it.

[Maelochs]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

The ACO allowed this for years, going back at least to 2006. It wasn't mandatory back then, but several constructors (Courage and Lola mainly) took advantage of it.

LOL, Courage P1 was the basis for almost the entire ALMS P2 field ... and through Pescarolo, Oak, and Oreca, were a fair portion of P1 and P2 in Europe.

Dyson managed to make their Lola the slowest P1 and the slowest P2 ... pure genius.

Thing is, now that the chassis have to meet the same standards, the only difference in engine and bodywork, whereas before most people took the Courage chassis and did significant mods. I am hoping it would be simpler and cheaper to take spec P2, dump the radiators and motor and and a new motor----after all, a bunch of former Grand-Am teams managed to do it.

[carbsmith]

Pescarolo didn't even have a different chassis designation between LMP1 and LMP2.



The first half decent P675 cars were massively overweight converted LMP900 Reynards. The Reynard 02S was designed for both classes and its successors raced interchangeably in either class for the next decade. In P675 you could still run aluminum chassis SR2 cars though, while the later LMP2 had crash test requirements on par with LMP1.

The problem is that in the old days you could show up with a P675 car 150kg overweight and have a chance because nobody else was even close and reliable at the same time. That's actually technically true in privateer P1 now as well (actually ByKolles is both massively overweight and unreliable) but having the more expensive category be the one with a lower weight limit changes the dynamics. It doesn't really make sense to spend a ton of money to make a cost cap P2 tub super light when your budget can go to somewhere more productive than replacing already decently placed weight with ballast, so you're likely committing to a sub-optimal starting point in what's supposed to be a top level class. (once again though, the only non-manufacturer car in the class started as an overweight LMP2 let alone LMP1, but it's different if you're intending to actually tail the factories instead of maybe beat the LMP2s)

[Maelochs]

Originally Posted by carbsmith

... it's different if you're intending to actually tail the factories instead of maybe beat the LMP2s)

No way any P1-L is going to compete with the factories. 1000 bhp trumps 600-700 and the rest is the same.

Plus the factories have almost unlimited budgets for testing and development, and can drill their crews as much as they want. Porsche and Toyota own racetracks; everyone else has to rent one.

Besides, FIA-ACO doesn't Want P1-L actually competing with P1-H. If that happened, the manufacturers might take their billions and go play elsewhere. P1-L will always be an also-ran category, in between P1-H and P2.

I can pretend, but really, I know I don't have the answer. I don't know how to make P1-L cost-effective and competitive and attractive to the range of teams who chased Peugeot and Audi all those years. I'd like to see the class have some life, though ... I can remember the few times I saw the Euro P1s at Sebring or Road Atlanta ... they definitely looked and sounded good going around--even if Audi and Peugeot were on another planet performance-wise.

(I'd post pics but my storage is broken ... lucky for you.)

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by Maelochs

Besides, FIA-ACO doesn't Want P1-L actually competing with P1-H. If that happened, the manufacturers might take their billions and go play elsewhere. P1-L will always be an also-ran category, in between P1-H and P2.

I think there may have been some lip service early on about performance parity, but I pretty much agree 100%

Richard

[carbsmith]

Yes, if you race against people with more money you will have a poorer chance of beating them. What about it?

The cars aren't the same, they're lighter, have more freedom in packaging without a mandatory drive and energy storage system, they have a bigger and more efficient rear wing, larger dive planes, no restrictions on number of engines, and a much higher fuel flow than the hybrid cars that gives them the most power of any cars in the field off battery. In theory the aerodynamic allowances should directly compensate for some of the power difference, especially if/when they get movable rear wings.

The factories won't pull out because they lose one race at Silverstone or something, being just close enough they can maybe steal a result occasionally is pretty much where everyone wants the class.