[DTM] How do you like the DTM ???

[werner]

As far as I know, the biggest chunk of the budgets of all teams exept Futurecom are paid by Audi and Mercedes. They deliver the drivers and a lot of sponsordecals are intracompany (for instance DaimlerChrysler Bank, Junge Sterne Gebrauchtwagen, 100 jahre Audi, S-line etc.)

PS, what is GFC?

[V8 Fireworks]

GFC = Global Financial Chicken er Crisis

It's Kev-speak in the name of Australia's spin-happy, sleep-deprived prime minister... everybody's best mate unless you are a flight attendant who brings the wrong type of orange juice!

[duke_toaster]

Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks

Then again, if they can hardly get a field in Germany where they get 100,000 crowds... how about in Canada and America... :\

I've heard stories about this, but are the manufacturers either giving tickets away directly, doing so somewhat hushlike or doing things to somehow ensure they are inflated?

The WTCC has some things clearly wrong (pay TV, technical regulations and weekend format), but the DTM is in an unusual situation as it's a national series that had function creep. Both need severe changes, I think the DTM ought to be merged in to ADAC Procar's Super 2000 top class. That way it might get rid of the two brands WWE stuff, then sticking the higher-power machinery (but without the crazy costs) in the WTCC principle.

[Speed-King]

Ain't gonna happen. Always remember: Weird as it may seem, but people here hated Super Touring!!

The top-tire series in Germany needs big, loud, fire-breathing monsters to be widely accepted.

[V8 Fireworks]

Really? I thought Super Touring was incredibly popular as the cars looked fantastic on their 19" wheels and subtly flared wheel arches, aero was subtle and not over the top and the cars really sung at their 8500 rpm red line. Also the racing was fantastic with polished professional "works" drivers, time and time again finding naff ways to crash each other out!

DTM are far away from a "touring" car... it is a promotional vehicle for Audi and Mercedes with the cars having little relation to the road-going counterparts apart from the styling isn't it (Aussie V8s is equally as contrived), is it really possible to push it back in the direction of "production touring cars" when the DTM "formula" is so refined?

[Speed-King]

Really? I thought Super Touring was incredibly popular

Alright, perhaps "hated" is slightly exaggerated, but they drew noticeably smaller crowds than either the old DTM/ITC until 1996 or the new DTM since 2000.

To illustrate my point:
Opel went from:


in 1996 to


in 1997.

I guess the problem was not Super Touring per se, but the contrast to the old DTM.

[duke_toaster]

Admittedly any set of international technical regulations I would formulate would look a bit less conservative than Supertouring or S2000 (ignore that, they'd look absolutely crazy but it wouldn't be a load of wind tunnel refined stuff, just bits to official templates to allow the cars to have the track widened and generally make them look crazy, but there would be working flat floors), but you don't have to have V8s for it to be successful. The best of both worlds in this day and age would be the rules being for 2.0 turbos. Jiggle the electronics, restrictors and some parts for national series (300hp, NGTC) or international racing (500hp). Possibly even make the international formula a bolt-on/bolt-off kit.

[Valenok]

DTM will never adopt S2000-like reg (300hp and FWD). In any case DTM cars must be faster and stronger than usual touringcars. More than 400hp and RWD/AWD. Silhouette, Super Turing or GT, 4-door or 2-door - it does not matter.

[FIRE]

Originally Posted by Speed-King

Ain't gonna happen. Always remember: Weird as it may seem, but people here hated Super Touring!!

The top-tire series in Germany needs big, loud, fire-breathing monsters to be widely accepted.

Never understood why ST didn't work in Germany. All big German brands except Mercedes were involved, large grids, well known drivers, live TV coverage and great looking cars...but still it wasn't very popular.

[FIRE]

Originally Posted by duke_toaster

The best of both worlds in this day and age would be the rules being for 2.0 turbos. Jiggle the electronics, restrictors and some parts for national series (300hp, NGTC) or international racing (500hp). Possibly even make the international formula a bolt-on/bolt-off kit.

They want this in rally S2000. In WRC S2000 cars with a turbo and national series the same cars without turbo.

[duke_toaster]

Originally Posted by FIRE

They want this in rally S2000. In WRC S2000 cars with a turbo and national series the same cars without turbo.

That's not what they're going to get though. They're going to get normal S2000 cars with bigger body kits next year, and in 2011 those cars with 1600cc turbos (no idea why they went to 1600cc turbos, I've already explained before why I don't like them).

However I don't think the turbos should be unbolted for national series, just lower the rev limits and boost pressures. In fact, if F3, rallying and one or more LMP classes joined touring cars in a single set of 2.0 turbo engine rules (just different boost pressures and rev limits) it would bring down engine development costs).

Originally Posted by FIRE

Never understood why ST didn't work in Germany. All big German brands except Mercedes were involved, large grids, well known drivers, live TV coverage and great looking cars...but still it wasn't very popular.

Perhaps it was other factors on the supply side of motorsport - this was a time a German was somewhat successful in F1 (with the exception of the final year of STW's life) but not dominating like he did later.

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by duke_toaster

Admittedly any set of international technical regulations I would formulate would look a bit less conservative than Supertouring or S2000 (ignore that, they'd look absolutely crazy but it wouldn't be a load of wind tunnel refined stuff, just bits to official templates to allow the cars to have the track widened and generally make them look crazy, but there would be working flat floors), but you don't have to have V8s for it to be successful. The best of both worlds in this day and age would be the rules being for 2.0 turbos. Jiggle the electronics, restrictors and some parts for national series (300hp, NGTC) or international racing (500hp). Possibly even make the international formula a bolt-on/bolt-off kit.

That sounds right on the money with production bodyshells. Would you suggest that such cars be FWD, RWD or AWD? AWD might keep the FWD manufacturers happy by not giving the impression that driving the front wheels is 'less sporty' than driving the rear?

Of course any international car should be "wary" of super-fast silhouette specifications as the cars MUST be able to race at Bathurst (cars that are too fast are banned from racing there)! What good will be the 'world championship' if there isn't eventually a round at bathurst, especially a 1000 km event where the best of the world, british, swedish (and german?) combine for a massive touring car race.

[duke_toaster]

Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks

That sounds right on the money with production bodyshells. Would you suggest that such cars be FWD, RWD or AWD? AWD might keep the FWD manufacturers happy by not giving the impression that driving the front wheels is 'less sporty' than driving the rear?

FWD is a complete non-starter for 500hp cars, so it is between RWD and 4WD. Both have their own advantages, and their own disadvantages but it would be one or the other. RWD might make for slightly more interesting racing, but 4WD politically would be better for the 4WD marques.

It could be possible to balance the two by giving 4WD cars less aero grip but I really wouldn't want such a system as it would make things too complicated. We don't want it to be like the WTCC is now with lots of bickering about equalization. I wouldn't make it like NASCAR (I'd allow engines that aren't four cylinders and DI) but we don't want political arguments overshadowing the racing.

Of course any international car should be "wary" of super-fast silhouette specifications as the cars MUST be able to race at Bathurst (cars that are too fast are banned from racing there)!

I thought it was cars that weren't Australian

What good will be the 'world championship' if there isn't eventually a round at bathurst, especially a 1000 km event where the best of the world, british, swedish (and german?) combine for a massive touring car race.

If Bathurst don't want to play, they don't want to play. A World Championship could work without that round (it wouldn't fit in with the race format I would go for), there are plenty of other circuits it could go to. Would also cut down on travel costs.

[V8 Fireworks]

It would have to be an extra 1000 km race at Bathurst of course. The local favourites get two chances to win per season, and the internationals get a chance to win. After all, Bathurst was in the original WTCC... But I'm suggesting a Non Championship race, so in formative years BTC-T cars and cars with Swedish/British national homologation can also race not just the FIA roadshow, and then of course... bringing in the fantastic specification cars you have suggested for an awesome show!

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by duke_toaster

I thought it was cars that weren't Australian

Anything much faster than a Formula Ford isn't allowed I think. Certainly F3 (or by association DTM) are banned from racing there as with too much aero, they will be too quick across the top of the mountain... the wings letting go across there would result in a massive crash.

[duke_toaster]

Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks

Anything much faster than a Formula Ford isn't allowed I think. Certainly F3 (or by association DTM) are banned from racing there as with too much aero, they will be too quick across the top of the mountain... the wings letting go across there would result in a massive crash.

Of course. There are other reasons why they wouldn't be allowed (inadequate snatch facilities, proximity of walls).

By the "cars that aren't Australian" I was referring to the adoption of the V8 Supercar technical regulations, with its RHD, Australian built and pushrod only rules. Basically it was a case of banning cars from other countries because they wanted to ensure Australian cars would win. If you didn't want an Aussie car, in the first year there were two options - go for a Supertouring car or run a N/A car (the turbos were banned) that was made fundamentally uncompetitive by the rules - and only then under a grandfather clause.

[Subaru_WRX_STi]

if BMW join the DTM, it will be with the a 3 series or the bigger M3 ?

[duke_toaster]

Isn't the M3 the same size as the other 3 series? Surely it would be between the 3-series and the 5-series instead. The DTM A4 is 4.8m long, and the 3 series is about 30cm shorter than that. Then again it wouldn't matter, they're pretty much prototypes anyway.

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by duke_toaster

By the "cars that aren't Australian" I was referring to the adoption of the V8 Supercar technical regulations, with its RHD, Australian built and pushrod only rules. Basically it was a case of banning cars from other countries because they wanted to ensure Australian cars would win. If you didn't want an Aussie car, in the first year there were two options - go for a Supertouring car or run a N/A car (the turbos were banned) that was made fundamentally uncompetitive by the rules - and only then under a grandfather clause.

In works in that racing isn't controlled by manufacturer teams though. Not too much different than Sierra cup era, lots of real different teams with real different sponsors all running virtually identical cars.

If they had adopted ST regulations... the series would be in a heap now (the balance of power between works teams vs teams with sponsorship (would all the privately sponsored teams be in BMWs?) and teams with locally built cars (local works teams, different models sold in Australia?) versus teams with mega-bucks british/european developed cars would be funny, then the rules would have followed the european collapse, and then it would be the current slow expensive cars ....), so they made the right choice... even if taxi pushrods V8s are much more boring looking motor cars than their American pony car pushrod V8 counterparts!

[duke_toaster]

V8 Fireworks, most sets of regulations will eventually fail. Groups 1 and 2 did, Group A did (hastened by the V8 incident), Supertouring did, Super 2000 will.

Super 2000 is perfectly fast enough for national series (and that's exactly what V8 Supercars/the ATCC is and should be) - the issues with it are costs. It's the world championship (WTCC - the clue is in the name) that needs the faster cars - the national series need S2000ish (or slightly faster if you must) speed but severe cost cutting. What is being proposed in the BTCC - the NGTC rules - are good for that. But in my opinion they don't really cut the mustard for the world championship level.

[andy97]

Originally Posted by andy97

Needs more manufacturers and simpler cars, a bit closer in relation to the road cars - very powerful but far, far less aero.

When I suggested this earlier on, we got in to a bit of a disussion cul de sac, briefly, about Aussie V8 Supercars. Partly my fault for suggesting that Bathurst could be a "flyaway" race. I guess what I meant was something along the lines of the series being discussed here:

http://tentenths.com/forum/showthread.php?t=120004

[E46]

I put this here because there isn´t a proper DTM 2010 topic:

www.sportmotores.es confirmed yesterday that Spanish DTM round will be hosted at Valencia in 2010, not Montmeló.

[juicy sushi]

I think DTM would be a lot better under GT4 rules. You could require 4 doors, or a minimum amount of interior space to keep things to "touring cars", I suppose. I just think the racing would be a lot better, and there would be a lot more competitive teams. All the current manufacturers, plus many more, could enter. You could have a BMW M3 / Mercedes C63 / Audi RS4 or RS5 / Ford Mustang / Chevy Camaro battle royale, with some nice cars which weren't FWD, had plenty of power, and didn't fall apart when touching...

[Speed-King]

GT4 would never fly in Germany.... the masses here demand big wings and widebodies.

[JMeissner]

Originally Posted by E46

I put this here because there isn´t a proper DTM 2010 topic:

http://tentenths.com/forum/showthrea...=120129&page=2