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19 Oct 2011, 07:55 (Ref:2973717) | #51 | ||
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To be fair, i think Nissan were'nt too far off the mark with their decision to not run the last round of the 1983 ATCC.
The Bluebird was in the Under 3-litre class, whereas his championship rival, Allan Moffat in the works Mazda, was in the outright class. An U3L car could score more points than a O3L car too... if for instance Moffat won a race, he got 25pts...if Fury came 2nd in that same race, he scored 27pts (very silly...but a good incentive for the smaller class cars)...thats how Fury was leading the series Fury had finished all the first 7 rounds, with a best finish of 2nd, and a worst finish of 5th. Moffat had one DNF in the first 7 rounds, but had won 4 of them, with two 2nds. Moffat had beaten Fury in every race that they had both finished. The 1983 ATCC allowed for 1 dropped score over the 8 rounds. Going into the last round, on dropped scores based on the first 7 races, Moffat was 4pts infront of Fury. ie...seeing as Fury hadn't beaten Moffat in a race all season, it didn't look good for Fury. By skipping the last round, that became Fury's dropped score, which all of a sudden put him 15pts infront of Moffat, and meant Moffat needed 16pts and a 4th place finish to win the title. So it was a worthwhile tactical effort. Considering also that Nissan were unhappy about the new rule-changes announced to take effect later in the year for the Endurance races, which left them with little times to completely rebuild their cars to the new specs for the Endurance season (they were being moved into the outright class).... that probably also played a part in them skipping the final race (STP-Roadways Racing also skipped the last round due to [and in protest of] the rule changes.... that though is for another thread) |
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19 Oct 2011, 08:04 (Ref:2973720) | #52 | |||
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20 Oct 2011, 03:13 (Ref:2974098) | #53 | ||
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There was nothing wrong with Fury, though?
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20 Oct 2011, 04:19 (Ref:2974115) | #54 | ||
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Not that I can recall either.
The Nissans were still VERY hard on their gear, the engines were not much better than hand grenades, turbo technology was still largely a black art in the early 1980's... especially with that level of boost aboard. So fresh stuff went into them at every event, if not between sessions! You can kinda get why the works team pulled out, to try and get a better handle on their cars for the enduros. Its actually quite interesting, Mr Fury was reported recently in several places as having 'retired' from the Nissan Works team at the end of 1989.. when in reality his contract was not renewed... and found safe haven in the GSR Peter Jackson Ford Sierra equipe for 1990... along with a Mitsubishi ARC assault... |
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20 Oct 2011, 08:01 (Ref:2974159) | #55 | |||
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A shame he sat around all year waiting to drive the second GTR in the enduro's only to be told late that they were only entering one car.... seeing what Colin Bond did in the 1990 season, imagine what Fury could have done over a season in a Sierra based on his Oran Park showing (and winning the Sandown 500 the month after with Glenn) |
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21 Oct 2011, 23:22 (Ref:2974980) | #56 | ||
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I have a sketchy memory of watching '90 Oran Park. Anyway, because I started getting into motorsport when he was just about gone, I can say that, despite not having a ATCC/Bathurst title or the "legend" profile/status like some others, George Fury belongs in that top group and would be taken a seriously as any other?
Also, speaking of George, I haven't noticed but, is there a "Where are they now/What happened to" thread here? Not just George, but any random driver who has, seemingly, disappeared. Also, not only just the bigger names but drivers with a lower profile/obscure can be included. Last edited by formerf1champ; 21 Oct 2011 at 23:32. |
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21 Oct 2011, 23:25 (Ref:2974981) | #57 | |||
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From all you see of his races live and in person, on #7, and now even on You Tube, I think Farmer George was very good.. he knew what he wanted from a car, and could extract mega speed from it. Did a good job alongside Mr Crichton in the JPS 635 back at Bathurst 1985 too.. considering it was very much the 'B' car... |
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26 Oct 2011, 15:26 (Ref:2977188) | #58 | ||
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From memory i think it was the 85 Pepsi 300.
Last edited by gab73; 26 Oct 2011 at 15:48. |
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26 Oct 2011, 16:12 (Ref:2977211) | #59 | ||
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1 Feb 2012, 05:17 (Ref:3019695) | #61 | |||
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I am John's son and can confirm there is no connection to Wal Donnelly. FYI, the race 1986 Surfers Paradise ATCC Round was the first time our Rover Vitesse had turned a wheel in anger. Unfortunately there was a manufactuing fault in the front struts and the broken strut broke the right front wheel on lap 2 coming into the left hander under Qantas Hill. Cheers, Chris Donnelly. Last edited by FalconEL; 1 Feb 2012 at 05:29. Reason: Correction. |
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"I still can't spin the wheels all the way down the straight in high gear", Mark Donohue (The Unfair Advantage) commenting to the Porsche engineers on the 1100hp 1973 Can-Am Porsche 917-30 when asked whether the car has enough horsepower yet!! |
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Just discovered this forum and I'm really enjoying going back through the race results! FYI, my father John Donnelly also competed in this race (the 1986 BP Plus 300) in our Rover Vitesse #50, unfortunately we didn't finish the event. I think from memory we went 19 or 20 laps and it was something very minor that put us out. More new car teething problems! Cheers, Chris Donnelly. |
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"I still can't spin the wheels all the way down the straight in high gear", Mark Donohue (The Unfair Advantage) commenting to the Porsche engineers on the 1100hp 1973 Can-Am Porsche 917-30 when asked whether the car has enough horsepower yet!! |
19 Nov 2012, 09:39 (Ref:3168370) | #63 | ||
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I've finished uploading rounds from the 86 ATCC to youtube. Missing is round 10 as it won't transfer to my computer. Another user uploaded round 1.
Round 1 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SF8oaqURlx8 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=npTb8vTL0ws http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WWBQrs1Ds3A Round 2 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8amnaocNIhg Round 3 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FoEN-6pitfE Round 4 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aBb1NKd27co http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-kWF4ABJK1U http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ofV_Bd8ilkc http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wXt0bXBNs6c Round 5 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=22ckiXuyMjk Round 6 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lsSgJT9qW_M Round 7 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L6GBIey5JKI Round 8 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=knAVko8w1mk Round 9 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xDwEPIEed2M |
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20 Nov 2012, 05:51 (Ref:3168914) | #64 | |
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Rd10 features a cracking battle for third between John Bowe, Graeme Bailey & Jim Richards.
It was the first sign of John Bowe being 'harder to pass than a kidney stone', as he held out the much faster two behind him for pretty much all the race. It was also perhaps Bailey's finest moment, he mixed it fair and square with the other two (and pulled a great pass on Richards to get 4th back).... its a shame he is unfairly only remembered for 'riding along' with Grice's Bathurst win in 1986, he was a VERY good driver in his own right. The pick of the races linked above would have to be Rd8 at Lakeside, an absolute ball-tearing battle for the lead from start to finish |
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21 Feb 2013, 06:55 (Ref:3208306) | #65 | |||
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An early 1986 "Chequered Flag" magazine mentions that Win Percy & Armin Hahne inspected the track on their way home after the 1986 Nissan-Mobil Series, telling questioners they were looking at the track for the Jaguar Sportscar team (as Surfers was penciled in for a WEC round that year), but the magazine indicates that TWR had placed entries for touring car race with Rover's... In a following "Chequered Flag" edition the event is announced as being called off, and Dick Johnson is particularly scathing of the touring car fraternity in his column for not supporting the event. |
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21 Feb 2013, 09:41 (Ref:3208413) | #66 | |||
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I can't see how TWR could've sent Vitesses over for that around the start of what was clearly going to be a fraught ETC campaign. Unless they were going to use older cars? The other thing to consider was that Brock and Grice (2 guys who might'vew shown interest in the Surfer's event) were also quite probably in Europe. |
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21 Feb 2013, 19:09 (Ref:3208707) | #67 | |
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Could the plan have been to use the two 'Whittakers' cars from the Nissan-Mobil 500 series for Surfers? Either hiring some workshop space to re-prepare them locally in NZ, or shipping them home to Kidlington for a freshen-up before sending them back 'down under'?
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22 Feb 2013, 20:27 (Ref:3209254) | #68 | ||
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Race calendars from that time show the event was scheduled for 30 March.
What happened to the TWR XJS' between Oct'85 (Bathurst, Aus) and Jan'87 (Wellington, NZ)? I assume they went home, but would they have been available to return for the Surfers' race? Edit: Oops, I've just re-read post #65 and seen that Rovers were entered. |
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24 Feb 2013, 13:48 (Ref:3210008) | #69 | ||
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IIRC, didn't TWR have plans for a return to Bathurst in '86 with possibly a mix of XJS and Rover entries, which fell flat because of a lack of financial backing from the Aussie Jaguar/Rover importer? |
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24 Feb 2013, 21:00 (Ref:3210149) | #70 | |||
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"Double Kidney Guv'nah?" "No thanks George they're still wavin a white flag!" |
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9 May 2013, 12:18 (Ref:3244803) | #72 | ||
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Just watched the race, both Darryl Hendrick (number 86 Gemspares car) and John White (number 88 White electrics car) are racing at this event.
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6 Jan 2014, 15:37 (Ref:3350918) | #73 | ||
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However, what is known is that TWR were preparing their trio of XJS Jaguars for a defence of their 1985 Bathurst crown. The 5.3 litre V12's were worked on and they found another 50 hp to give around 500 hp. The cars were also tested at Silverstone and with the extra power on tap, their times showed that they would still be at or near the front of that years FIATCC (ETCC). This was scrapped though as JRA didn't come to the party (so it was reported). John Goss was to again be a driver with TWR, but their no-show saw him enter his own hastily prepared, ex-Group C Jaguar. The Jags with their extra horsepower were the ones that led the start of the InterTEC 500 at Fuji later in 1986, holding off a turbo Starion and Brock's Group A Commodore. They may have been 2 years out of full time racing, but they were still quick enough to hold Brock on Fuji's long front straight. From the YouTube video I've seen, Brock couldn't pass them on the straight even using most of it to slipstream. I remember reading in Australian Muscle Car Magazine on their 25th anniversary piece on the 1986 Spa 24 Hours, Les Small said that he got onto Shell in England to obtain some of the "special fuel" that Walkinshaw was using in his Rovers. Either Small got the company wrong or it would point to some funny business as the TWR Rovers were sponsored by Bastos (Texaco), not Shell. Small claimed that using Shell's special blend gave the V8 more power and allowed Grice to go faster on the long straight at Hockenhiem than the Group C Commodore's ever did on Conrod (apparently it even spooked Grice how fast the Group A Commodore was going in a straight line). He also claimed that after the cars warm up accident in Germany, he accidentally got some of the fuel in his eyes and was blinded for most of the day (IIRC cars were required to use ordinary unleaded fuel). The special fuel might explain how TWR (and almost no one else except Andy Rouse) got enough power out of a 3.5 litre V8 to make it competitive in international touring car racing against turbo powered cars and 4.9L V8's. Interesting question though, how does a 3.5L V8 Rover Vitesse lap a circuit such as Monza faster than a 5.3L V12 Jaguar XJS? Allowing for 2 years, Jean-Louis Schlesser's pole time in the TWR Rover at Monza in 1986 was 2.53 seconds faster than Uncle Tom had qualified his Jaguar for the 1984 race (1:58.18 compared to 2:00.71). As they proved at Bathurst, the Jags weren't that bad around the corners or under brakes over a single flying lap, and would have hosed the Rovers on the long straights (Walkinshaw's Jag, still in 1984 spec, qualified 5 seconds faster at Bathurst in 1985 than the Rovers had managed in 1984). Last edited by Holden308; 6 Jan 2014 at 16:05. |
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6 Jan 2014, 17:27 (Ref:3350958) | #74 | ||
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Extremely interesting and informative post holden, and, if I may add, somewhat controversial!
Whilst it has long been alleged that TWR had all sorts of tricks up their sleeves in the preparation and delivery of successful Group 1 and Group A programmes in Britain and Europe, it certainly does appear that this wasn't automatically translated into Antiopodean results. I think the easiest way to answer the lap times discrepancy is that the Rovers were very much on an upwards development curve in 1984 with most of TWR's attention being on the XJS. In 1985 The Rover was already significantly quicker than it had been in 1984, and again so in 1986 when they reached their peak powers against the incredibly strong Volvo Turbo's and Sierra Ti's. By 1986 with full support behind the Vitesse and much less so of the Jaguar as its main programmes had been finished, it is logical to suggest that the Rover would have matched or even beaten the Jag around a lap. |
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7 Jan 2014, 09:35 (Ref:3351152) | #75 | |
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Sometimes controversy is fun chunterer
I do see what you're saying, and its highly possible that the fully developed Rovers could have matched the Jaguars over a single lap or race distance. In 1984 the V12 Jags were pumping out 450hp, and in 1986 the V8 Rovers were making 340hp, up from 1984's quoted 300hp. Is an extra 40hp over two years, plus other developments in suspension and tyres, enough to make them faster at tracks like Monza? Of course despite numerous rumours about the legality of the TWR Rovers, including altered body profiles, special racing fuel and engines that were increased in capacity to over 4.0 litres rather than the 3.5 litres they were supposed to be, they were never protested in the ETCC and nothing was ever proven. Another reason for TWR's no-show at Bathurst in 1986 could have been a simple case of logistics (especially if they planned to bring the Bastos Rovers). There was an ETCC race at Zolder in Belgium just one week before Bathurst, and one at Estoril in Portugal the week after Bathurst. Flying the whole kit and kaboodle out to Australia for a race and then back to Europe in just 2 weeks would have been a nightmare for the team. Then there was added possibility of crash repair. Looking at it from that point of view makes it easy to understand why they didn't make the trip down under. Bathurst was a one off race on the other side of the world and Win Percy was still a big chance to win the FIATCC. Staying in Europe was a no brainer. It would have been interesting to see how the Jags with their extra power, or indeed the Bastos Rovers, went at Bathurst in 1986. Unfortunately we'll never know, though the Jags form at Fuji in 1986 suggests they would have been on the pace with the Group A Commodores and Gibbo's Nissan's. When the TWR Jags came to Bathurst in 1985, they expected to be able to at least match Walkinshaw's times in John Goss' Group C XJS from 1984 so times of around 2:16 were predicted. What they found was that without the Group C aero kit, they were forced to go slower on Conrod to avoid getting airborne. Tom reportedly hit 290 km/h in the Group C Jag, but could only get 275 in his Group A version....interestingly the Group C car used a TWR Group A engine suggesting the same might have been possible in 1985. And according to Win Percy they were also forced to take it somewhat easy going over the top of the mountain, though Tom ignored his own instructions about the top of the mountain in Hardies Heroes and got into the 2:18's with a lap that was a joy to watch. With the extra 50hp they had found in testing, 2:16's would have been possible for the Jags in 1986.....comparable to Allan Grice's 2:16.16 to grab provisional pole. |
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