[LM24] F1 attacks Le Mans

[Purist]

In Le Mans trim, I'd take the Lola-Aston, Dome S102, or Epsilon Euskadi any day.

I don't know what you're looking for, RaiseYourFist, but Group C and old GT1 are gone. Besides, though the Dome doesn't have all the great shaping, it has that smoothness that kind of reminds me of the Sauber-Mercedes C9 (that's it, they need to paint the Dome silver!).

And now back to our regularly scheduled thread.

[safc_fan89]

Some quite laughable, if not downright pathetic, responses here. Let me guess, if Tom Kristensen came out and said that he thought F1 was rubbish and now worth watching, you would laud him!

Grow up, toddlers shouldn't be allowed anywhere near computers.

[Tom87]

Originally Posted by safc_fan89

Some quite laughable, if not downright pathetic, responses here. Let me guess, if Tom Kristensen came out and said that he thought F1 was rubbish and now worth watching, you would laud him!

Grow up, toddlers shouldn't be allowed anywhere near computers.

If I sound bitter and resentful, its because I am! I'm sad and disapointed that the sport I used to be totally obsessed with has become a joke - lucky for me I have sportscars to occupy me instead!

As for what does F1 have to be jealous of? Audi, Peugeot, Acura, Porsche, Aston Martin, GM and possibly a few others over the coming years. The threat doesn't come in terms of spectator figures or TV ratings, but in terms of manufacturers who could be spending there money in F1. Peugeot, Mercedes, Toyota and BMW chose sportscars in the early and late 90ies - and who did that work out for?

[JAG]

Originally Posted by AdamAshmore

We've just had a great 24 hours, an unusually close one, lets just enjoy that rather than going for the jugular over a quote! After all Moss said similar things (as mentioned above). It is just a different view point.

Sorry, when F1's on it's knees pleading for help I'll take great pleasure beating them over the head with a baseball bat and choking them with diesel fumes!

The promising WTCC of the late 80's was killed off before it threatened F1, Group C was killed off and a booming WRC has been reduced to a boring parade thanks to constant interferance and rule changes.

What makes it even more indefensible is the fact F1 has always been strong and successful, they were always top of the tree, but for some reason wanted to drive out any motorsport competition.

We've seen what F1 has become, it's dominated by manufactuers, privateers have been driven out, now there are very real worries some manufactuers may pull out, which as we saw with Bernies 3.5l Group C, leads to inevitable collapse.

Then again I'm sure F1 will continue as a Middle Eastern/Asian series with $1bn scalextric tracks built in the middle of the desert!

Someone like you? Problem is the marketing doesn't work on you, but it works more than Sportscar marketing!

Average Joe reading the paper would have read about Audi vs Peugeot with diesel cars. Allide to some prominant TV/Radio/Press ad's, their message is getting across, not to mention their programs have a marketing impact in the biggest market of all, the US. The problem with manufactuers involvement in F1 is they receive little credit, the drivers are 90% of the focus, Ferrari, and Ferrari alone are the other 10%. Audi and Peugeots programs

[TheSuicideKing]

Why is there always a thread in this forum bashing other types of motor racing because the members of this section perceive sportscar racing is being bashed and in turn the members begin to bash the other type of racing?

[Hugewally]

I believe you've missed the reason of why this thread started...

[kdr]

I personally hope sportscars never become as popular as F1...or else we'll have numerous threads just like this.

[johntt]

Originally Posted by JAG

Then again I'm sure F1 will continue as a Middle Eastern/Asian series with $1bn scalextric tracks built in the middle of the desert!

I'd forgotten about that. In fact, its that which is my #1 problem with F1 at the minute.

[marcosgt]

Originally Posted by kdr

I personally hope sportscars never become as popular as F1..

I'd have to echo that.

F1 is one sport, Sportscars another and I happen to enjoy Sportscar more (always have since I visited Le Mans and the British GP in 1979).

F1's looking a bit more interesting and open this year than for some time, but it really suffered to the non-partisan through the Schumacher era (especially the latter stages).

A good driver, though, in either will perform well. I can recall seeing Schumacher (pre F1) and Lehto (post) performing miracles in sportscars at Le Mans. Some drivers, though, just get better breaks in Sportscars (Palmer, for instance and Bellof never got the chance to drive a really competitive F1 car).

Cheers.

[Mal]

Originally Posted by johntt

I'd forgotten about that. In fact, its that which is my #1 problem with F1 at the minute.

#1 problem with F1 is that it is not a sport or anything similar. It is Mr Ecclestones business venture. Within that he will do whatever is takes to make it more financially successful. The key word is Financially successful as that is what motivates him. He will do whatever to make more money and that is the bottom line.

If someone offered him 2 billion a year to run it behind closed doors and take it off the TV then that is what he would do. He has no interest in the fans as enthusiasts, just as another means to pay him some more money.

[the sniper]

Originally Posted by JAG

Average Joe reading the paper would have read about Audi vs Peugeot with diesel cars. Allide to some prominant TV/Radio/Press ad's, their message is getting across, not to mention their programs have a marketing impact in the biggest market of all, the US. The problem with manufactuers involvement in F1 is they receive little credit, the drivers are 90% of the focus, Ferrari, and Ferrari alone are the other 10%. Audi and Peugeots programs

If in a week you asked your Average Joe which manufacturer won Le Mans this year, they would probably have no idea. If you asked them to name one driver that started the race they probably couldn't.

If you asked your Average Joe who Lewis Hamilton or Fernando Alonso drive for, you'd get more people getting it right then if you asked the same question about Allan McNish or Nicolas Minassian .

[Adam43]

Schadenfreude is an undesireable emotion.

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by kdr

I personally hope sportscars never become as popular as F1...or else we'll have numerous threads just like this.

I agree with this too. And it doesn't bother me in the slightest that F1 is bigger. Why should it? It is good for me, why should I need it to be bigger than something to justify it? Why do I need to get pleasure from something else failing to enjoy it?

[TRuss]

I like that sport car racing is less known. I feel as if I am in an exclusive club.

As for which drivers are more likely to be house hold names...well in the middle of Georgia, if the guys name doesn't end in Jr. he isn't likely to be very well known.

[JAG]

Originally Posted by the sniper

If in a week you asked your Average Joe which manufacturer won Le Mans this year, they would probably have no idea. If you asked them to name one driver that started the race they probably couldn't.

Marketing outside of F1 is very different.

The focus is manufactuers, not drivers, whether that be sportscars, WRC or touring cars. Manufactuers use their programs to market road car technology and the brand, i.e last week radio ad's seemed to be running 24/7 promoting Audis quiet, high performance engines in the R10.

Likewise we've seen Peugeot TV ad's, again focusing soley on diesel technology and changing perceptions, which is continued in aggressive newspaper ad's.

There is more focus to appeal to enthusiasts, they will buy high end roadcars using the race developed technology, which creates a halo effect for the rest of the range. Audis Quattro is the perfect example, then you have Subaru, I suspect high performance diesel road cars are next on the list from Audi.

If you asked your Average Joe who Lewis Hamilton or Fernando Alonso drive for, you'd get more people getting it right then if you asked the same question about Allan McNish or Nicolas Minassian

This perfectly highlights the problem for F1 manufactuers they are secondary to the drivers, if Hamilton moved onto another team, so would the media focus and fan attention. It's not Mclaren Mercedes vs Renault, it's Hamilton vs Alonso.

F1 always suited the chassis manufactuers-factory engine link-up, full factory teams have simply escalated costs without any noticeable marketing improvements for the teams/manufactuers.

They've all tried to follow the Ferrari model, and fell flat on their face. Honda and Toyota for example would fair better if they concentrated on supplying engines to F1, with a relevant, factory hybrid LMP1 at Le Mans, and some kind of touring car/rally program.

For manufactuers who sell cars in the US, F1 doesn't fullfill their needs, BMW NA has been pleading for an ALMS program, Audi we are already well aware of, and of course Porsche needs a presence in the US.

For a fraction of Jaguars F1 budget, they could have run a popular Le Mans program and ran in the ALMS. Rather they chose F1, became a laughing stock, and now see their sporting image at rock bottom.

I'm smply pleading that F1 sticks to what it's good at, rather than interfering with other areas of the sport, and moving away from it's heartland. Right now, it appears to me F1 is ran for the benefit of one manufactuer and a handful of big players.

[LeMans.pt]

Originally Posted by 1969MGCGTdriver

Nothing would happen. We all know there is no passing in F1.

[LeMans.pt]

Originally Posted by johntt

...i am no fan of the green lobby, as a politics student I have seen how they are incredibly dogmatic, extreme and shockingly intolerant of any criticism or questioning. They way to defeat them is to out-green them, make them the irrelevance before they make us the irrelevance.

Use water-tight solutions. Type 'algae fuel' and 'biogasoline' into wikipedia. I've posted the links many times before...

I hope that you are not talking about diesel... that is many things, but that is not Green!!!!!

[the sniper]

Good points JAG, but unless Sportcar racing becomes much more popular and Formula 1's popularity falls a lot, the Manufacturers will stay in F1.

[JAG]

Originally Posted by the sniper

Good points JAG, but unless Sportcar racing becomes much more popular and Formula 1's popularity falls a lot, the Manufacturers will stay in F1.

They aren't necessarily connected.

Audi and Porsche have again reiterated they have no interest in F1, Peugeot will not return, the list goes on. Let's be honest, Honda and Toyotas F1 adventures have been as big a disaster as Jaguars. I only see F1 paying dividends for 3-4 manufactuers at anyone time, the rest simply melt into the background.

F1's working for Ferrari, Mercedes, BMW and possibly Renault, I'm not sure the rest get much media or fan attention.

The problem for F1 is manufactuer budgets are unsustainable in the long term for anyone but regular podium finishers, manufactuers jump in, but don't stick around for long when they can achieve little but best of the rest, look at Le Mans in the late 90's, Super Toruring, the WRC etc.

F1 budgets come under even more pressure when you realise the expensive technology has little, to no road car relevance, and you begin to realise you can run at Le Mans AND the WTCC/WRC for a fraction of an F1 budget.

[the sniper]

Originally Posted by JAG

Let's be honest, Honda and Toyotas F1 adventures have been as big a disaster as Jaguars. I only see F1 paying dividends for 3-4 manufactuers at anyone time, the rest simply melt into the background.

I think Honda and Toyota gain from beating each other, though it's usually only for low positions and doesn't mean much in Europe, in Japan it is important.

Originally Posted by JAG

F1 budgets come under even more pressure when you realise the expensive technology has little, to no road car relevance, and you begin to realise you can run at Le Mans AND the WTCC/WRC for a fraction of an F1 budget.

Well you say that, when Flavio Briatore was asked about a 175 million Euro cap for 2009 in Formula 1 he said "I already pay 40 per cent less than the cap." By my calculations that means 70 million Euro's. I know Renault spend the least out of all the manufacturers in F1, but if you compare that to the rumoured 200 million Euro's that Audi spent on winning Le Mans this year, Sportcars looks less attractive.

[johntt]

Originally Posted by LeMans.pt

I hope that you are not talking about diesel... that is many things, but that is not Green!!!!!

No, I was talking about this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Algae_fuel
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biogasoline

[Knowlesy]

If the exciting aspects of motorsport are indeed marketing and algae fuel then the future of motorsport is indeed a colourful and exciting prospect. I cannot wait to see the diverse ad campaigns.

F1 isn't McLaren-Mercedes versus Renault, quite right. Sport is about the people. The main people just so happen to be the drivers. Who in motorsport do I want to meet and perhaps talk to? The people or a diesel engine?

There are some characters in here who constantly bemoan the lack of personality and visibility of F1 drivers and then in the next breath want them shunted to the background so that 'Average Joe' can read about Audi's heroic and charismatic diesel engines!

I missed Le Mans this year regrettably, but it sounded a terrific event. Even more so than usual. Which makes this thread more than a touch baffling to me.

F1 has many things wrong with it (as does sportscar racing) but it is possible to enjoy both nevertheless.

[JAG]

F1 isn't McLaren-Mercedes versus Renault, quite right. Sport is about the people. The main people just so happen to be the drivers. Who in motorsport do I want to meet and perhaps talk to? The people or a diesel engine?

Single seaters are about people/drivers, sportscars, touring cars and rallying are about the cars, drivers are very much secondary.

At one stage F1 did have some appeal on the car side, that's why I followed Mansell/Hill, but also had great interest in the actual machines.

Which makes this thread more than a touch baffling to me.

Not baffling at all, just another dig by the F1 establishment during Le Mans week.

The differnce this the sportscar world has renewed self belief, due to one factor, relevance. F1 is becoming a dinosaur, looking to past glories and dominated scandal.

I personally could now never support/enjoy F1, knowing the F1 establishment has done so much damage to sportscars, touring cars and rally.

I hope one day their arrogance and scandals bring F1 down a peg or two.

[Adam43]

This is like a 'discussion' about football teams!

[the sniper]

Originally Posted by JAG

Single seaters are about people/drivers, sportscars, touring cars and rallying are about the cars, drivers are very much secondary.

I would not agree with that at all actually. The WTCC would be nothing without it's famous drivers and part of the reason for the WRC's downfall was the loss of stars like McRae, Burns, Makinen and Sainz.

EDIT: That was a bit off topic, sorry. Your right Adam.

EDIT 2: If Sportscars are not about the drivers, why is there a thread on this forum called "Tom Kristensen - Legend"???