Brabham BT14

[Marcus Mussa]

I must eat my words as I see in the Historic GP programme that they have accepted the sister car FL-6-65, which had a similar history when new.

[David McKinney]

Originally Posted by Marcus Mussa

Coys says on their website catalogue that it was brought back from NZ by an Italian, who is the seller now.

Ditto the printed catalogue
I left NZ in 1985 and there had been no BT14 - FL-8-65 or otherwise - there before that time
If it did indeed go from NZ to Italy, where was it from, say, 1967 to 1985 (or later)?

[Marcus Mussa]

Originally Posted by David McKinney

Ditto the printed catalogue
I left NZ in 1985 and there had been no BT14 - FL-8-65 or otherwise - there before that time
If it did indeed go from NZ to Italy, where was it from, say, 1967 to 1985 (or later)?

I never got near the auction as things were rather hectic on the track and after, however I spoke to the owner of the "sister" car (which was competing) and he said he saw the car; that its description in the catalogue was total drivel and that the chassis plate said FL-9-65, that there are two other cars with the same plate and so on... He also said that the letter from the ACM exists, however that the ACM were only stating that it was eligible on the basis of the information given by the prospective entrant (ie if it really was chassis 8).

[allenbrown]

Hi Marcus

Thanks for that. I wouldn't be too worried about two cars with the same plate as we've already seen two cars with the FL-1-65 plate (one in England and one in Aus) so this might have been some sort of tax dodge. Maybe a FL-9-65 went to the Bridges brothers and another FL-9-65 went to the US? Anything's possible - I certainly wouldn't rule out the possibility of two genuine cars with the same plate.

Allen

[Marcus Mussa]

I finally saw the car by accident in an underground car park last week together with other unsold lots from the Coys sale. It is very tatty, has a chassis plate stating FL-9-65 and according to the person I was with (who is an authority on such cars, having owned and restored FL-6-65), it is most probably a BT18.

[Gale Racing]

I have a list of Brabham owners by model that was compiled by John Hafkenschield (? spelling) of the USA who for a time assumed the role of Brabham Register. The list was provided to me by John in 1997 when I joined his group and lists the following owners of BT14's at that time (which John knew of):

Bo Hollander - Atlanta GA
John Ampt
George Goodare - Sydney AUS (prior owner of my car FL-3-65)
Patrick Moran - Palo Alto CA
David Sweeney Portland OR
Peter Johnson - Sydney Aus (previous owner of FL-1-65)

He also notes the following BT14 cars that he did not know the owners of at that time:
X Milt Parsons
X Hunter
X David Irwin

John may have updated his owners list, I have not kept in contact.
Gale Racing

[allenbrown]

Finally found mention of the Earl Jones Brabham-Ford, winning at Laguna Seca 9 May 1965 in the 'pro formula race'. Previously, he and Motschenbacher (Lotus 22) each won races at Phoenix and Motschenbacher had also won the Riverside National. [CP&A 5 Jun 1965 p9]

At the big Colorado race, Jones' car is described as ex-Hap Sharp. [CP&A 19 Jun 1965 p3]

[grice80]

Can anyone put any light on the history BT14 sold by coys recently.The owner was a Mr Rizzi of Italy.
Can anyone recall seeing this car race in recent years or have any knowlege of it history,BT14 or otherwise?

[Marcus Mussa]

Originally Posted by grice80

Can anyone put any light on the history BT14 sold by coys recently.The owner was a Mr Rizzi of Italy.
Can anyone recall seeing this car race in recent years or have any knowlege of it history,BT14 or otherwise?

See the posts in May 06 - has it been sold since the Coys sale at Monaco then?

[Marcus Mussa]

Originally Posted by allenbrown

Finally found mention of the Earl Jones Brabham-Ford, winning at Laguna Seca 9 May 1965 in the 'pro formula race'. Previously, he and Motschenbacher (Lotus 22) each won races at Phoenix and Motschenbacher had also won the Riverside National. [CP&A 5 Jun 1965 p9]

At the big Colorado race, Jones' car is described as ex-Hap Sharp. [CP&A 19 Jun 1965 p3]

Are you sure this is a BT14? I say that because on the BT2 thread there was a chassis (chassis 10) which was purported to have gone from Ernie DeVos to Hap Sharp to Earl Jones, and the date for it to have gone to Jones was 1965. If that car was wrecked as you say on the thread, then that takes care of that one!

[James Murray]

fl-10-65 was racing at HSCC silverstone on Saturday sporting a post 1966 backerlite type chassis plate.

[Marcus Mussa]

Originally Posted by James Murray

fl-10-65 was racing at HSCC silverstone on Saturday sporting a post 1966 backerlite type chassis plate.

Sorry James, I was not clear - I was referring to FJ-10-62 (a BT2). Got cross-threaded I guess!

[allenbrown]

Originally Posted by Marcus Mussa

Are you sure this is a BT14? I say that because on the BT2 thread there was a chassis (chassis 10) which was purported to have gone from Ernie DeVos to Hap Sharp to Earl Jones, and the date for it to have gone to Jones was 1965. If that car was wrecked as you say on the thread, then that takes care of that one!

Thanks Marcus - I hadn't made that connection.

It was David McK who said Jones' car was wrecked; I haven't been able to find that reference. It's possible Jones started the season with the ex-Hap Sharp/De Vos 1962-build Brabham and then bought a newer BT14 later in the season but he used a LeGrand Mk 3 in the run-offs at the end of that year so I don't think so. Jones' main competitor was Moschenbacher in his Lotus 22, also a 1962 model, so I guess a BT2 makes more sense in SCCA racing than a brand new BT14.

Allen

[allenbrown]

Further to the Philippe Vidal F3 BT14 in 1966, Rene-Pierre Alie had his "well-worm Brabham BT14 (masquerading as a BT15) at Brands 19 Oct 1969.

Does anyone have the F1R F3 book for 1969? Did they list any chassis numbers for this event?

Thanks

Allen

[Brian Speake]

Alie, is listed in BT15 but there are no chassis numbers in F1R.

Brian

[allenbrown]

Denis has reminded me () that he sent me a spec sheet on these cars earlier this year. The main differences are:

BT16 - SCA, Hewland Mk 7, 1300 series driveshafts, 18 gallons held in two side tanks

BT15 - MAE (or Holbay R65), Hewland Mk 6, 1100 series driveshafts, 7 gallon seat tank

BT14 - twin cam, Hewland Mk IV (optional Mk 5), 1300 series driveshafts, 7 gallon seat tank

Wheels and chassis dimensions are the same. Simon has volunteered (I think that's the right word!) to help me recognise the minor chasis differences around the rear but he's confident that the frames had to be made slightly differently by AM.

These details are also on the other two relevant threads.

Allen

[grice80]

Any infomation on the car sold by coys would be most appreciated.The car was owned by a mr Rizzi in Italy

[grice80]

[quote=Marcus Mussa]See the posts in May 06 - has it been sold since the Coys sale at Monaco then?[/quote The car has definatly been sold,but its history is unclear,does anyone know anything about its history ,be it as bt 14/15or 16?

[Steve Wilkinson]

Originally Posted by Alan Brown

Autosport [26-2-70] has its seasonal survey of the 1969 hill climb season. There is a picture of Jim Johnstone in his Brabham-Buick, but of more interest is the text and I quote: 'Jimmy Johnstone has sold his Brabham-Buick BT14 to fellow-Yorkshireman Peter Walter... this car is the "prototype" BT14 chassis FL/1/65, and was first owned by David Bridges, then by Rodney Bloor: Bryan Eccles put in a Buick and hillclimbed it, and Roy Lane and Johnstone did the same. It was actually raced in F1 in 1965 by the late John Taylor, with a 1500 twin-cam'.

In this issue there is a report from the previous week-end's Harewood hillclimb and in it the Johnstone car is described as "the ex-Roy Lane BT14/21-Buick".

[Racesport]

[quote=grice80]

Originally Posted by Marcus Mussa

See the posts in May 06 - has it been sold since the Coys sale at Monaco then?[/quote The car has definatly been sold,but its history is unclear,does anyone know anything about its history ,be it as bt 14/15or 16?

The former Rizzi's Car was claimed to be a F1 car. I saw the car for sale two years ago. I took some photos at that time.

[allenbrown]

Useful picture. Did you happen to notice an AM number on the frame?

[Denis Lupton]

I've noticed some speculation on the Coy's Monaco sale Brabham,and having
had the opportunity to closely inspect the car,here's some fact's about this car,though no closer to it's real identity.
AM number,after cleaning all the paint off the area, is AM ( 6 ),
although it could be taken as AM[ 6 ] ,and/or Am I 6 I, but not AM161,
unless the Arch Motors fabricator had lost his number 1 for a while.
After the AM [ 6 ] ,the letter's R J P,which I have seen before on chassis.
It has Lockheed calipers all round,and the dry sump tank has a cutout to house the Lockheed master cylinders, but it has Girling master cylinders.
The chassis appears to be genuine,welding and bracketry Arch Motors
quality,but tatty and marked,obviously in need of some restoration
The mark,s (witness mark's) on the uprights give the impression that the
calipers have been on these uprights for a long time,no obvious other
markings,but the Girling master cylinders may be a more recent fitting.
All the other components are of a Brabham origin,wheels,bodywork,seat,
gearchange,instruments and dashboard,pedal,s ,but all these parts are
easily transferred.The engine is a Ford Twincam,the gearbox is Hewland Mk
8, again,easily transferrable. The car show's evidence of some racing,
stone chips on bodywork and in radiator,tyre scuffing ,and brake disc and pad wear, I'd say normal wear and tear,so there should be some history of
entry and race result's somewhere in Europe.Duncan Rabagliati has told me
he saw it a few years ago at Imola (10/10/02) Driver P.Rizzi and wondered at the time about it's provenance, but had heard nothing more of it.
What's funny is that the car was advertised as FL-8-65,AM6,and was accepted as a legitimate car by the Monaco Historic race promotors,
but on arrival in OZ,we find the chassis plate to be FL-9-65, with the previously mentioned AM numbers. Both these chassis numbers have
several cars claiming ownership,which leaves this particular car out in the cold.It has FIA identity papers number 1582, but there are obvious discrepancies on these papers. The Italian Dichiarazione Certificato
No. 093, describes the car as Brabham F1 1500, Telaio No. AM6,
Anno di costruzione 1964, which is no help at all, unless it was originally a BT10?
Also,a letter from The Auto Club de Monaco, describes the car as being ex Rodney Bloor,then John Cardwell. I think not,I have Bloor with FL-6-65,
Cardwell in Robert Ashcroft's FL-8-65, but this car has ,as I said before, a plate with FL-9-65.
I hope 10/10th's people can unravel this mystery car.

[Ted Walker]

I have a different AM No listed for FL-9-65.

[allenbrown]

Good man Ted. Could I as if it is a number that could be mistaken for (6) or [6] or 161?

[PeterMorley]

The chassis plate looks to be rather thin for an early Brabham one.
It looks to be printed metal rather than the plastic one favoured by Brabham in the early days. Or is that just an effect of the photograph?

More photos could be revealing, but the down tube where the gear lever mounts would seem to be square section rather than twin tubes as used on 14/15/16 chassis.