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25 Feb 2008, 10:40 (Ref:2137396) | #51 | ||
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Indianapolis has four turns with absolutely no run-off and what do they do?
Barriers. Bloody good ones. That's what Turn 8 needs. |
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25 Feb 2008, 10:41 (Ref:2137398) | #52 | |
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I know I will cop some flak for the following comments but that track is absolutely dangerous. As if the concrete walls with little to no runoff and undulating surface isn't enough, and high kerbs are a definite car killer. If the suspension ever fails on the car, or, as we've seen so often this weekend, a flat tyre results, then the driver is just a passenger inside a high speed projectile.
Adelaide is a dangerous circuit by any measure. I'm just one of those motorsport fans who hates to see carnage on the track. I fear the worst when a car hits turn 8 as you can never tell how much the driver has suffered from the huge impact with the wall. My condolences go out to Ashley Cooper's family. RIP Ashley Cooper. |
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25 Feb 2008, 10:42 (Ref:2137402) | #53 | |||
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25 Feb 2008, 10:45 (Ref:2137407) | #54 | ||
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@mmciau, I think a SAFER barrier would be much better suited to Turn 8 than your suggestion. Think of all the cars that glaze the wall - I would imagine it'd be easier to make a big mess of that barrier which would bring out the safety car for several more laps. And theres already too much safety car as there is. At the end of the day, motorsport is dangerous and just pray the drivers are responsible out there. |
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25 Feb 2008, 10:53 (Ref:2137412) | #55 | |||
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25 Feb 2008, 10:56 (Ref:2137415) | #56 | |
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isnt that the purpose of the seat chatters ?
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25 Feb 2008, 10:58 (Ref:2137417) | #57 | |||
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When the chicane was removed, we had more trouble when cars hit the single layer concrete wall and moved it back, quite often cracking the concrete blocks causing delays while the large forklift replaced sections of the wall and realigning it. Now the wall on the exit of turn 8 is a double layer of concrete blocks, each block weighing about 4 tonne. It does not move when hit as easy as it did. Yes, returning to the full circuit would mean cars will approach the hairpin at greater speed, but in a straight line with good run off if they stuff it up. Hitting the wall going in would not be anywhere near as bad as clipping in apex going into turn 8 and shooting straight into the wall. |
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25 Feb 2008, 11:01 (Ref:2137419) | #58 | ||
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Also one must remember that the HANS will only stop head and shoulder movement.
It will not stop your brain bashing around inside your skull causing injury. |
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25 Feb 2008, 11:05 (Ref:2137426) | #59 | |||
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I can tell you i held my breath on more than one occasion over the weekend watching my mates come around that turn 8 and going right out to the wall. They have tried to change turn 8 multiple times and big crashes still happen. The best thing is to remove the corner. The corner was made wider by removing the tyre bundles that caused some accident which now means the driver don't have to slow as much. If you give them an inch they will take it. And i believe the major contributing factor to the angle that Ashley went into the wall was he clipped the armco on the inside of the track (much like seto a few years back). Would it be safer if the armco was removed and just the ripple strip was left there (with strict monitoring of people cutting the inside?) |
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25 Feb 2008, 11:07 (Ref:2137428) | #60 | |||
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25 Feb 2008, 11:07 (Ref:2137429) | #61 | ||
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The HANS device is not the panacea for the problem.
It's pretty easy to stop a helmet suddenly with a HANS device. Unfortunately your brain has 200km/h of momentum and hits the inside of your skull pretty damn hard. What a HANS is great for is the NS part - Neck Support. As a safety mechanism it's no substitute for momentum absorbing barriers... |
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25 Feb 2008, 11:11 (Ref:2137432) | #62 | |||
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R.i.p
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25 Feb 2008, 11:15 (Ref:2137435) | #63 | |||
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Some thing to ponder. Going right out to the wall on the exit is done with throttle. Don't like the wall, less right foot. It's going in to turn 8 all wrong that causes problems. Removing the armco will not stop cars getting out of shape going in if they clip the ripple strip. |
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25 Feb 2008, 11:37 (Ref:2137445) | #64 | ||
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Take a V8 Supercar seat, and compare it to a Nascar seat and you'll see the difference in safety between the two. |
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25 Feb 2008, 11:43 (Ref:2137454) | #65 | |||
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Some days you are the bug, some days you are the windshield. |
25 Feb 2008, 11:48 (Ref:2137464) | #66 | ||
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I think we have safely assumed that if you widen the exit, the cars will go through there faster; move the armco back, they cut the kerb, the same result. As someone who was a bit too young to remember when Adelaide had the GP, why didn't the F1 track take this route?
Mick |
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25 Feb 2008, 12:25 (Ref:2137502) | #67 | ||
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25 Feb 2008, 12:28 (Ref:2137504) | #68 | ||
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25 Feb 2008, 13:52 (Ref:2137541) | #69 | ||
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Just one technical question with regard to the call for SAFER barriers (and I honestly don't know the answer to this) is can they be fitted to remporary barriers? Obviously American ovals have permanent walls which the barrier is fitted in front of. Walls on a street circuit are temporary and usually designed to move.
It is impossible to make all circuits safe in all circumstances. The nature of street circuits is such that it will always be harder to make them safe. This incident is more shocking because the impact was not on the driver's side, and so the fatal injuries were received (presumably) entirely due to the nature of the deceleration, not to any trauma directly resulting from collision. It was clearly an enourmous impact, and history tells us that similar incidents are not uncommon, and so it is repeatable. At that point the emphasis must change in that the safety of this particular corner is not of an acceptable level. How you improve that is the difficult part and requires careful study, not idle speculation - some obvious solutions - tyre barriers for instance - may actually make it worse. |
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25 Feb 2008, 18:52 (Ref:2137766) | #70 | |||
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Get all the facts before posting RS |
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25 Feb 2008, 18:58 (Ref:2137774) | #71 | |||
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Why do we need fall protection on building sites, people know the risks. Why do we need welding masks, people know the risks. Why do we need seat blets, people know the risks. Why do we need airbags, people know the risks Blah, blah, blah, blah. This is just not acceptable thinking these days - sorry. You are required to do everything that is reasonably possible to reduce the risk, has CAMS done this with turn 8 - I think not. By law you are required to use the Hierachy of Controls for reduing risk, here is a link to the SafeWork SA, maybe CAMS should have a read Hierachy of Control, start at the top and work down, the bottom being the leat effective, and that is where HANS devices fit in. Last edited by Trevor; 25 Feb 2008 at 19:08. |
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I reserve the right to arm bears |
25 Feb 2008, 19:03 (Ref:2137780) | #72 | |||
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I reserve the right to arm bears |
25 Feb 2008, 19:35 (Ref:2137811) | #73 | |||
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Radisich in 2001, Cooper this year to name 2- they all came to a stop up against the inside wall. Trajectory after impact is not an exact science and not easily determined. Mike Last edited by mmciau; 25 Feb 2008 at 19:43. |
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25 Feb 2008, 22:00 (Ref:2137913) | #74 | |
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Without wanting to trivialise matters, it could have been a much worse weekend for Paul Dumbrell had his front suspension broken a moment earlier in Race 2. It was a nasty enough impact at the comparitively acute angle that #16 impacted the wall at; imagine had it been 45 degrees to the wall, or further.
Out of curiosity, does anyone have a rough idea of the average speeds through Turn 8 in the first year of its current layout (i.e., post-Jones rollover)? Without knowing the cause of Cooper's accident, I won't speculate, but it does seem to the untrained observer that the cars are going faster through there than they were in the first year of the sweeper. Let us hope there are no knee-jerk reactions and, that if anything is changed, then it is done with clarity and foresight. |
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25 Feb 2008, 22:00 (Ref:2137914) | #75 | |||
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Although PI was rebuilt for the Bike GP in the late 1980's the run offs were designed to take into account the cars to be using the track. If you look at my link to the Liam Magee Inquest earlier you will see a reference to CAMS having bigger run off requirements than Motorcycling Australia (Bike version of CAMS). I never did see any reports on the Coroners Findings into the McColl Inquest. |
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