The Future of F3

[Japanese Samurai]

According to Japanese AUTOSPORT (print edition),
Toda Racing carried out the shakedown test of the 2013 free design engine at Okayama on Sep 26-27. Test driver was Hiroki Katoh.
The name of the engine is TR-FX2.
TR-FX1 which is their full original engine is a base engine.
http://www.toda-racing.co.jp/en/product/engine.html
TR-FX2 is a direct-injection engine.
It is adapted for 2013 regulations 90% at present.

[RF_Racer]

Originally Posted by strider

Sorry, but you've just become a joke now so there's no wonder you spend so much time ROFL.

I've never worn a Carlin cap in my life. One of my earlier thoughts was that Carlin (sic) could run 4 cars in the International Class and a couple in the National Class, but it was rightly pointed out to me that they would still be in trouble for attracting the best National Class drivers as well.

Strange, isn't it, how despite being such a rubbish outfit in your eyes they still attract the best drivers. They must be doing something right.

Take it easy have a:

[RF_Racer]

Originally Posted by Flavio Galtieri

Blimey!

Probably the most interesting thread on the single seater forum!

I think there is something wrong with any formula when you really have to place a driver in a certain team to be sure of winning a championship. F3's not the only one is it?

Obviously a good team will naturally attract the best funded drivers and often the fastest drivers but it can't be right for them to be allowed to run three times or even twice the number of cars as any other team (in any one class that is) because that does detract from the "sporting" nature of the challenge.

But that's not a sensible business plan I suppose.....

Well said I agree with that, but BF3 is the victim of its own success. As for allowing teams to have wind tunnels and developing the cars aerodynamics and spending millions in the process is just madness and must be outlawed.

[Alex K]

@jondownunder that move may kill F3ES credibility... but British series would definitely benefit from that move. And could see just how strong Carlin is against Euro countrerpart.

[davyboy]

Originally Posted by Alex K

@jondownunder that move may kill F3ES credibility... but British series would definitely benefit from that move. And could see just how strong Carlin is against Euro countrerpart.

It might make sense for the Euro and British series to merge.

[jondownunder]

I honestly think that against GP3 there's no longer room for two 'top' F3 series. I wish they'd see sense and merge.... maybe Signature will force the issue... although as a fan I guess that would mean fewer British rounds.

[bella]

i think the way the british series is run and the way the euroseries is managed isn't really mutually compatible. a shame really because with the crap attendance for anything but bumper cars and the odd sportscar meeting it'd be the only way the british competitors would get to race in front of decent sized crowds.

[Alex K]

At least half of schedule should stay on British soil IMO, rest could be run under DTM banner. The thing is, many obstecles can be seen. Two different promotional companies run DTM and BGT/BF3, I cant see them merged in near future. At least until DTM finds replacement for F3ES or SRO stop promoting its BF3... What you recon strider?

[strider]

Originally Posted by bella

i think the way the british series is run and the way the euroseries is managed isn't really mutually compatible. a shame really because with the crap attendance for anything but bumper cars and the odd sportscar meeting it'd be the only way the british competitors would get to race in front of decent sized crowds.

Isn't the point here that even though the F3ES races with the DTM and has decent sized crowds, the grid has still shrunk to 12 or 13 cars?The drivers are not so much interested in big crowds as decent circuits and learning how to race properly.

Originally Posted by Alex K

At least half of schedule should stay on British soil IMO, rest could be run under DTM banner. The thing is, many obstecles can be seen. Two different promotional companies run DTM and BGT/BF3, I can't see them merged in near future. At least until DTM finds replacement for F3ES or SRO stop promoting its BF3... What you reckon strider?

I wasn't intending to post on this thread again because just lately it has become too personal and puerile, but you've never done me any harm so I'll answer your question.

I agree with what both you and bella are saying. The F3ES and BF3 are run in entirely different styles and there's no way in practical terms that they could merge. It's a shame, because the F3ES was formed from the German and French championships, but the difference was that both the DMSB and the FFSA agreed and even contributed in cash and in kind to make it a success. Compare that with the MSA, which does nothing but take money from SRO. As far as I know it has never contributed a penny towards BF3.

[bella]

Originally Posted by strider

Isn't the point here that even though the F3ES races with the DTM and has decent sized crowds, the grid has still shrunk to 12 or 13 cars? The drivers are not so much interested in big crowds as decent circuits and learning how to race properly.

absolutely - so there was something more fundamental wrong there. and the ones who do actually need genuine sponsors as well as/instead of daddy would really be able to use the lure of the crowd numbers - as they do in fr3.5. if you bring your guests along to a packed meeting it really does have an impact. and that's word from a genuine sponsor. course the euroseries also has tv coverage, which bf3 could benefit from.

"decent circuits" is a matter of opinion though. both use circuits that might not be involved with f1, but they still have things to teach the drivers. as is the racing properly thing - there's better cars than a f3 car to perfect the art of overtaking in

[strider]

Originally Posted by bella

absolutely - so there was something more fundamental wrong there. and the ones who do actually need genuine sponsors as well as/instead of daddy would really be able to use the lure of the crowd numbers - as they do in fr3.5. if you bring your guests along to a packed meeting it really does have an impact. and that's word from a genuine sponsor. course the euroseries also has tv coverage, which bf3 could benefit from.

I can only agree about the crowds, subject to my earlier caveat. BF3 was televised from Spa and Silverstone last season, but judging by the reaction on here they might as well not have bothered.

Originally Posted by bella

"decent circuits" is a matter of opinion though. both use circuits that might not be involved with f1, but they still have things to teach the drivers. as is the racing properly thing - there's better cars than a f3 car to perfect the art of overtaking in

We can have a discussion about "decent circuits" if you like, but I would certainly include Monza, Spa, one of the two in Germany and, probably Silverstone. Macau, of course is something else.

I used the wrong phrase to describe the benefits of F3 over control formulae. The more important part is having an engineer and a couple of mechanics to look after you and teach you how to set up a car. That's why GP3 is so hopeless and FR3.5 so good as a step up from F3. Think of Esteban Guerrieri at Silverstone last year as showing how to overtake.

[bella]

Originally Posted by strider

We can have a discussion about "decent circuits" if you like, but I would certainly include Monza, Spa, one of the two in Germany and, probably Silverstone. Macau, of course is something else.

monza and spa, certainly. the brands gp layout looks like a scream too. neither of the german ones. they're like pulling teeth. unless we're talking about the nordschleife silverstone, perhaps in its old version with bridge. no longer.

as a matter of curiosity, formula 3 hasn't been caught in the plague of degree rich, experience poor "but that's what the spreadsheet says, it must be true" engineers, has it?

[strider]

Originally Posted by bella

monza and spa, certainly. the brands gp layout looks like a scream too. neither of the german ones. they're like pulling teeth. unless we're talking about the nordschleife silverstone, perhaps in its old version with bridge. no longer.

Alright, we'll forget the German ones and I agree that Bridge version of the Silverstone GP circuit was much better than the present Arena version. It was even better in the beginning, when Abbey was just a left-hand kink, so the approach speed to Bridge was mighty! What are the circuits in Spain like?

Originally Posted by bella

as a matter of curiosity, formula 3 hasn't been caught in the plague of degree rich, experience poor "but that's what the spreadsheet says, it must be true" engineers, has it?

I don't think so, thank goodness. Maybe because it isn't a 'glamour' formula. I still see plenty of the familiar faces around.

[bella]

Originally Posted by strider

Alright, we'll forget the German ones and I agree that Bridge version of the Silverstone GP circuit was much better than the present Arena version. It was even better in the beginning, when Abbey was just a left-hand kink, so the approach speed to Bridge was mighty! What are the circuits in Spain like?

motorland gets good reviews, it's a nice long circuit too. there seems to be good overtaking opportunities in at least 2 places. i'm not sure about valencia, it's not really a single seater circuit is it? it looked a bit stop-go in a fbmw let alone anything bigger. barcelona is... barcelona jarama looks like it could be quite good fun, though it looks quite narrow - superleague cars round there were very silly indeed!

looking at the f3 open calendar on the other thread it appears to be a seriously good proposition for next year.

[strider]

Originally Posted by bella

motorland gets good reviews, it's a nice long circuit too. there seems to be good overtaking opportunities in at least 2 places. i'm not sure about valencia, it's not really a single seater circuit is it? it looked a bit stop-go in a fbmw let alone anything bigger. barcelona is... barcelona jarama looks like it could be quite good fun, though it looks quite narrow - superleague cars round there were very silly indeed!

Motorland is the only one that appeals from those. I don't know why Portimão was dropped after only one year as it was popular with the teams. Maybe it became to expensive or too popular.

Originally Posted by bella

looking at the f3 open calendar on the other thread it appears to be a seriously good proposition for next year.

I agree, it is, but only provided that's all you want to do. I believe I'm right in saying it still uses non-FIA spec engines, which means that all the FIA meetings are ruled out unless you hire another car or, maybe, another engine and fitting kit.

Anyway the die is cast so so far as the BF3 calendar is concerned - see above. I MUST make it to Monza next year.

[Valker]

Any idea if Toda will offer their engines to Europe in 2013?

[strider]

Here's something I wasn't expecting. It's from Twitter, but a reliable source and the timing is right because there has just been a World Motor Sport Council meeting:

"And the new president of the FIA Single Seater Commission is.... Gerhard Berger! He replaces Macau GP boss Barry Bland."

[edenrace]

Expected. Barry puts everything into any project he undertakes, sadly he found that the FIA work took up most of his time and therefore reluctantly has stood down. This position like the majority in the FIA does not come with any salary making it even harder to justify.

[EastonNeston]

How do you feel about Gerhard Berger, taking over the role? (Strider & Edenrace)

Has he been involved in anyhting apart from F3 over the last few years?

[strider]

I was aware of the problems that Barry Bland faced. He was in an almost impossible situation. Leaving aside the financial considerations, there was always the danger that he would be accused of bias if he made a decision that favoured F3 due to his connection with Zandvoort and Macau. It would have been completely unjustified, but has already been mentioned on here.

I'm sure Gerhard Berger keeps an eye on the junior formulae as everyone in his position does, particularly when he was involved with STR. Otherwise I can think of no particular reason for his appointment apart from his well-respected reputation. The thought of him doing it for expenses only seems unlikely, although he doesn't need the money per se.

One of the other problems is that GP2 and GP3 appear not to come within the remit of the FIA Single Seater Commission because they are Bruno Michel operations. Maybe Gerhard has the clout to put that right.

[chunterer]

strider are you hinting that this change could mean that F3 will no longer be the only category of choice for The Macau GP?

[bella]

i'm not strider (obviously ) but i don't think that's the case... it's just that since he already had links to f3 it could have been spun as being favouritism.

[edenrace]

F3 is one of the very few single seater series recognised by the FIA and therefore has in the FIAs opinion, and rightly so, preference over other predominantly commercial series that are not . If you new B Bland you would realise that his integrity and proffesionalism ensured that he was an obvious choice for the Presidential role, he will be sadly missed.

[Go_For_Pole]

ok but what exactly did he achieve during his term?

[strider]

Originally Posted by chunterer

strider are you hinting that this change could mean that F3 will no longer be the only category of choice for The Macau GP?

Definitely not. I have no idea what's in Gerhard Berger's mind, but Macau is and I'm sure will remain the ultimate Formula 3 race.