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17 Jul 2017, 10:08 (Ref:3752103) | #51 | |
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The claim that fossil fuels are subsidised here is just lies promoted by the left wing media .
https://notalotofpeopleknowthat.word...ubsidy-claims/ Included in this link is a report which claims to show the amount that fossil fuels are subsidised around the world . But the amount for the UK is nil . And a lot of the other claims are that the cost of air pollution & roads are a subsidy for for fossil fuels . Over the last 10 years oil companies have paid about £60 billion in taxes to the government in the UK , & taxes on road fuels adds another £28 billion per . So the idea that fossil fuels are subsidised here is just lies to try to cover up the fact that renewable energy gets £9 billion subsidy [ Official Government figures ] rising to about £13 or £14 billion over the next few years . With about 20 million households here that means that on average every family is paying £450 a year on top of the actual electricity cost , [ rising to £600 or £700 per year ] This is because wind & solar power can never produce enough electricity to cover their cost . http://www.theregister.co.uk/2014/11...les_engineers/ Link to report by Google,s scientists who say it will never work . So , not only do we subsidise the cost of every new electric car that is sold in this country , we are having to pay increasing amounts to subsidise the electricity to power them . I noticed that a couple of countries that stopped the subsidy on buying EVs have seen the sales drop to nothing . |
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17 Jul 2017, 10:56 (Ref:3752113) | #52 | ||||
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https://www.odi.org/publications/100...oal-production In 2015, the UK was the only G7 nation to increase oil and gas subsidies. The UK subsidies were £5.9bn, with £3.7bn used to subsidies oil and gas production in Russia, Suadi Arabia and China. http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...-a6730946.html https://www.theguardian.com/environm...fuel-subsidies http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/politicsandpo...an-renewables/ I'm sure you'll claim it's the left wing media conspiracy, but that bottom one is from the London School of Economics and tells you the facts. The UK subsidises oil and gas. Fact. Sorry. Quote:
Prices rising is being blamed on renewables? Let's get real here - Energy prices have not significantly risen since 2009. But tell you what, those gas prices were looking pretty bad in 2013 before the oil barrel crash. That's what's had the biggest effect on energy prices in the UK - better hope the oil industry doesn't recover. Quote:
That article was written in 2014, but if you read the link you'll find that the quote is from 2008. That's approaching a decade out of date. Are we going to really be using a decade old quote, especially given how much the technology has progressed? Did you know at current (so discounting progression completely for now), the current average American house has enough roof space to power all of its needs, including a car? And that's ignoring any sort of tech progression. It's almost like development needs to be done to improve technology eh? It's a good thing that nobody is suggesting that we turn off all power plants and move to solar overnight, otherwise we'd have a problem. But what is being suggested is we move to improve the technology so it IS viable to replace fossil fuel when we don't have any left to generate power with. And then there's all the talk of "You need X square miles to power the UK, you can't just find that land!". A completely disingenuous argument, because nobody is suggesting we move everybody out of Wales and cover it in solar panels. The Welsh wouldn't like that, and I do like Wales so don't really want to annoy them. I wonder what kind of area we could put these on that would take up less space. Maybe a space were humans don't tend to go. Maybe high up to avoid shade as much as possible. I know! Roofs! The other thing about solar panels is they're pretty ugly. Kinda cool from a tech stand point, but not pretty. If only someone would develop roof tiles that look like solar panels. Oh they have? Well isn't that a nice looking solar roof, providing energy for the occupants! ----- Once again, we've got the usual complaints. Oil and gas isn't subsidised (which it is...no matter which way you swing it...it just is, it's in the Governments budget for god sake) and renewables aren't good enough yet. Of course, nobody is suggesting that overnight we turn off all power plants and turn to solar. It's an absolutely ridiculous argument to make that we shouldn't bother doing something if it isn't 100% the answer, especially since right now no energy source provides 100% of the energy and it's a mix of sources. So why is it such a bad thing that renewables provide some of it. You know what I'm not seeing? Any solutions put forward for an alternative to the fact we ARE running on an energy supply which has a limited life span, and we ARE creating a world health problem by continuing to do so. All this "ELECTRIC CARS AREN'T THE ANSWER" never seems to come with any substance with it, happily ignores facts to call any sort of progression terrible. Oil and gas is great. It's done remarkable things for society. It's allowed us to build wonderful things. But those days will end, because there simply isn't enough of it. So ignoring the carbon and health stuff (because it really doesn't interest me - i'm not a green warrior), and purely based on longevity...we need a replacement.Oh, and I work for an oil and gas company. I'm not calling them evil and think they should shut down - I'm just not going to stick my head in the sand and decide that we shouldn't progress the world, because I can't see beyond 20 years. I notice we've stopped call the cars and batteries terrible now that it's proven that they can be fast, they can be long distance, they can be charged quickly, and they can have a longer life span than a petrol car. Notice how the arguments against electric cars keep moving onto new subjects, because people are so absolutely determined to hate them. Here it is summed up: Some smart, rich people are trying to make sure that the human races survives long past the oil and gas reserves we have, and are attempting to create a sustainable solution, that will also provide an environmental and health boost. It isn't perfect, but it's an attempted solution to a subject WILL become a problem, and they're starting now so that we have a head start. And some people have such a massive issue with this, that they'll actually post lies on the internet to put other people off. People keep saying it can't be done. But they also said online newspapers are rubbish, you can't fly private rockets, you certainly can't land private rockets, you can't make online currency, you can't make electric cars. Well tell you what, I'm going to bet on Elon. He keeps doing things which other people claim is absolutely impossible and will never happen. He's either a wizard, or more likely, these things can happen if people put in the effort. PS - I'm not arguing motorsport should be electric. Electric cars make sense for every day use, but not for motorsport. I find Formula E boring, and although I'm going to give it a try, Electric GT isn't looking much better. But if you're driving around a 1.4L Diesel Toyota Corolla, you can't claim it's because you love the thrill of an internal combustion engine. Last edited by Akrapovic; 17 Jul 2017 at 11:03. |
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17 Jul 2017, 10:57 (Ref:3752114) | #53 | |||
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What I should have written is that, for the first time since the 1960s, the North Sea oil and gas made a loss for the British taxpayers when decommissioning and investment in to the industry was taken into account. This article from Torygraph (hardly a left wing rag) explains further: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016...-the-taxpayer/ However, I would actually consider the fact that the taxpayers are paying towards the cost of decommissioning of oil fields as being a form of subsidy. Semantics maybe, but it still comes out of our pockets. |
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17 Jul 2017, 11:06 (Ref:3752116) | #54 | ||
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Now the time has come round, and the money they set aside wasn't enough. All that just went into profits, and now we're subsidising the costs that were meant to be accounted for. |
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17 Jul 2017, 12:38 (Ref:3752136) | #55 | |
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Wow , the Guardian & the Independent , you can,t get much more fake news than that .
So here is the Guardian showing how electricity & gas prices rose by 37% in just 3 years since 2010. https://www.theguardian.com/money/20...gy-prices-rise And as for the LSE reporting on an IMF propaganda bulletin , they are both the absolute limits in loony left lies . If you want to believe that road building & road accident costs are a subsidy for oil companies then there is nothing more to be said . Meanwhile , one of the biggest , most advanced solar plants in the world might have to close as it will never make enough money to pay for itself . https://www.technologyreview.com/s/6...is-in-trouble/ And here is an explanation of why renewables cost far more than fossil fuel generation . https://www.economist.com/blogs/econ...ist-explains-0 And another one showing why we are all being lied to about renewables . http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/ar...er-Booker.html But no doubt you will ignore them because they do not fit your viewpoint . |
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17 Jul 2017, 12:52 (Ref:3752138) | #56 | ||
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17 Jul 2017, 13:03 (Ref:3752139) | #57 | ||||
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I'd like to say I called it. I knew you'd dismiss everything as left propaganda, so threw in the IMF link too and you even managed to call that left propaganda. Shall we throw in some moon landing and 9/11 videos too?
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I do find it absolutely ADORABLE that you call International Monetary Fund loony and lies, and then use the Daily Mail for a source. Even when I KNEW you'd dismiss everything as lefty nonsense, I never expected the Daily Mail to become a citation. Quote:
So since you're so absolutely determined to tell me how solar panels are (see, we have managed to leave the topic of electric cars completely!), would you like to lay out your plan for a renewable future for when we do not have any more oil and gas to rely on? Because if you completely ignore efficiency, economics, health and environment, the fact remains that we're currently chewing through a finite resource at a record rate, and have no replacement lined up. So what will it be? I vote for burning some books, and those left wing looneys. Or we can call it a day if you want since this is just going to round in circles (and I consider a discussion dead when the Daily Mail is used as a scientific citation). You can continue to claim electric cars are awful, solar panels won't help anything and it's all lefty crap. I'll be off enjoying my future in my electric car. Hopefully a Tesla one day. That's the dream! If you want a bit more speed, I'll give you a tow. Last edited by Akrapovic; 17 Jul 2017 at 13:12. |
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17 Jul 2017, 14:07 (Ref:3752153) | #58 | |
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Denmark has seen a huge drop in sales .
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...-electric-cars Hong Kong has dropped to nothing I think & other parts of China are dropping . http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/c...nce-slash.html And generally sales are dropping in a lot of places when the buying subsidy is reduced . |
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17 Jul 2017, 14:22 (Ref:3752156) | #59 | ||
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https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rc...zLvZ_eL30bO3qQ Takes a minute for " Continue to article " |
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17 Jul 2017, 14:24 (Ref:3752157) | #60 | ||
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Using your own data -
There was a sudden drop at the end of 2015 as the tax break was phased out in Denmark. However there was then an upward trend after that. Q1 2016 Denmark sold 200 electric cars. Q2 was 300, Q3 was 600 and Q4 was 900. Using your own site, those statistics say that without tax breaks, Denmarks electric car sales have grown 450%. Hong Kong has not dropped to nothing, what-so-ever. It went from 17,500 to 4,200. That's still 4,200...not "nothing". That's 4200 more than nothing. China electric car sales went from 200,000 in 2014 to 350,000 in 2016. You can "think" china is dropping, when in reality it's sky rocketing. In fact, China sold so many more electric cars, it makes up for the drop in Denmark and Hong Kong combined (which was 15,000 less sales), with over 100,000 to spare. AND, these are still sales...which means they are selling. https://qz.com/972897/china-is-selli...ot-even-close/ If you'd like more global sales figures then you'll see an upward trend every year, and even the 2017 incentives removals didn't stop every month this year being a new record. Fact is, electric car sales are still climbing every year. You are the one that brought up electric car sales, and they appear to support the growth of the electric car rather than the decline. Even once incentives are removed, after the initial one off hit, the data then continues to trend upwards. The message there is quite clear - people will buy electric cars when they can afford to buy them. http://www.ev-volumes.com/ Also, this misses the wider point (which we keep getting told to look at). why are EV incentives a thing? Because the cars are expensive, and the government wants people to go down the route of electric cars, so is paying people to go that way. When the cars get cheaper (which they are, the Tesla Model 3 is 1/3 the price of the Model S), the incentives will go away because people will be able to afford them without them. Quote:
If you don't like electric cars because they're boring or whatever, that's fine. It's a perfectly valid stance to prefer a petrol car because of the noise, the feel, the driving sensation etc. Or just the raw mechanical experience of it. But don't make claims like electric car sales are declining, the technology isn't any good, or only renewables is subsidised. It just isn't true. It's perfectly fine to just want a petrol car. When I win the lottery (ha), I'll be buying a nice big Bentley V8 (or maybe W16 if they still make them). And I don't need to justify that. But I won't come and tell everyone electric cars are dead because I want a petrol car. Last edited by Akrapovic; 17 Jul 2017 at 14:34. |
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17 Jul 2017, 14:57 (Ref:3752162) | #61 | |||
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My current Leaf has the 30 kWh battery, and I would be confident of getting 100 miles in any weather/temperature conditions. (For the older 24 kWh battery, I would consider 80 miles the realistic 'limit' in poor conditions). With my commute of around 35 miles round trip, I recharge every three days in the summer (every other day in winter). It's perfectly manageable and much the same as keeping an eye on your fuel gauge, except you don't have to leave home to fill it up. (I do understand that not everybody has a suitable place for home charging, so for some people the logistics can be too challenging). If you have the sort of job/commitments which means you might have to drive 200 miles at the drop of a hat, then a Leaf as your only vehicle is not a good idea. But most people aren't in that situation (either they have access to another vehicle or they don't do journeys like that). Only 6% of car trips in 2014 were over 25 miles, according to this: https://www.licencebureau.co.uk/wp-c...statistics.pdf Volvo have committed to having 'electric motors' in all their new(ly released) cars in 2019, but in most it will just be as a hybrid, probably with a small battery which will only go about 20 miles before the petrol/diesel kicks in. A bold step but not as bold as their press fanfare might have suggested. Nobody pays £30K for a Leaf unless they are very silly; after dealer incentives, government grant etc etc the list price is more like £20-22K. While this thread has gone off into the wider issues very quickly, if you want to ask anything about actually living with a Leaf, I'm happy to offer my experience. |
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17 Jul 2017, 15:05 (Ref:3752164) | #62 | |
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http://insideevs.com/incentives-remo...alt-hong-kong/
This one must be the Daily Mail because it says EV sales have dropped to nothing in Hong Kong |
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17 Jul 2017, 15:24 (Ref:3752166) | #63 | |||
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I pay £200 a month for the PCP deal (10K miles pa) and about £10 a month for the electricity to go ~600 miles. |
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17 Jul 2017, 16:24 (Ref:3752182) | #64 | ||
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If we're just going to ignore facts then I'm going to start making some wild claims. I think that electric cars out number petrol cars 10 to 1! I'm not going to post proof, it's just what I think is happening. Sounds ridiculous when someone else says it, doesn't it. Sales are on the up. If you remove incentives then after that initial drop, they still trend upwards. Your own sources confirm that. Sorry to urinate on petrol powered bonfire (don't do that: hazardous to your health!). |
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17 Jul 2017, 16:34 (Ref:3752186) | #65 | |
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Denmark for one as I understand it.
Odd that it should be the King of Wind country that stops the subsidies and sees sales fall. Whereas Denmark's neighbour Norway (the butt of many a Scandinavian joke telling session, hydro-electric powered and with huge Oil and Gas revenues for a relatively small population) subsidises electric cars to the point where almost everyone (it sometimes seems) buys a Tesla. There's not much point in getting too concerned about the world moving to electric cars. Governments want electric whether it suits their country or not. It will happen. It will take between 10 and 20 years. (There probably cannot be enough manufacturing capacity to make it happen faster). Whether it is the right thing to do won't matter. It will happen. |
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17 Jul 2017, 16:40 (Ref:3752190) | #66 | |
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On the more specific topic of the Leaf, they have sold 250,000 of them in 5 years. Seems pretty decent.
2011 EPA range (actual test, not the Nissan quote) was 73 miles 2016 model moved from a 24 kWh battery to 30 and extended the range to 107 miles (again, tested, not the Nissan quote). It's tested by the EPA at doing a nice sounding 99 mpg (106 highway, 92 city). The range might not be the greatest (but it's on the up), but that equivelent fuel milage is fantastic. The Tesla Model S 90D, which is of course far more expensive, was tested at 104 mpg. There's quite a few different Tesla configurations, so that changes depending on the model, but the 90D has dual motors, so that can lower it a bit. If you skip the dual motors and go RWD, you can increase that mpg. |
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17 Jul 2017, 16:44 (Ref:3752193) | #67 | |
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That was already addressed previous page (but I understand if you don't want to read all my nonsense )
Denmark seen a dramatic drop in sales when the incentives ended. But, after that drop, they still rose despite no incentives. 2016 Q1 -> 2016 Q4 seen a 450% rise in sales, despite the car now being significantly more expensive. Whilst the sales figures are no where near what they were, they are still trending upwards. In other words, people will buy electric cars with or without subsidies and it's growing despite the sudden jump in cost. As they get cheaper, it'll rise faster. It's simple economics too. Most people aren't petrol heads and don't care what powers their car. If you tell them that one car is significantly cheaper to run than the other, they'll buy the cheaper one. |
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17 Jul 2017, 17:34 (Ref:3752203) | #68 | ||
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Interesting to think that a Tesla is a cheaper option. You should swap your Fiesta. There were, a few days ago, 199 used Teslas offered on the Tesla web site. Must be one there that could stack up on the number front. It will be interesting to see what the governments do about lost revenues from tax and duties. The changes made in the recent budget looked like no more than a "Get set" for a raft of adjustments to come. One things that puzzles me about Teslas is that when I have seen any on the motorway they are never travelling at speed. Usually if cruising they are sitting in the middle lane nose to tail with everyone else. Maybe I only see cars being delivered or moved around for service or demos? Or is it that, being tracked as they are, any rapid progress will be recorded and might be used in evidence against the driver? Or perhaps it's a range thing? Whatever, the puzzle is that they presumably appeal to some avid pertrolheads on a few counts, one being, presumably, the potential performance to play with. Must understand the need of Alpha people to have biggest/fasted/latest/most desirable things at their disposal and markets accordingly. Far more logical would to tune for economy over speed - especially in the USA. That is if one was really serious about the ecological message. I guess it's a bit difficult to do that and set up as a rocket launcher. |
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17 Jul 2017, 17:39 (Ref:3752204) | #69 | |||
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17 Jul 2017, 18:27 (Ref:3752211) | #70 | |||
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Maybe Tesla drivers know they have nothing to prove so don't need to dominate the outside lane..... All cars have a speed where they are fuel efficient, and to go any faster reduces that efficiency. I would think that EV drivers are more conscious of this than most diesel or petrol car drivers. I think a Tesla owner can opt out of the 24/7 live tracking, although the purpose is to capture data to improve the breed, so why would you. The U.K. road network is so congested nowadays, I don't find any enjoyment using it, so am happy to keep safe and legal-ish. Don't think I'm the only one that thinks that way..... |
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17 Jul 2017, 19:03 (Ref:3752217) | #71 | ||
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However I see little benefit, even if the car is driving, sitting in the middle lane at 65 with a van in front and a truck behind. There has to be other motivation to do that. And yes the roads in the UK as terrible and getting worse. I discovered yesterday that the wealthy part of Oxfordshire has even worse road than Surrey. Beginning to think that out local roads may be some of the best in the country. Which is worrying as even locally I would consider a serious 4x4 (think Defender or similar) might be necessary soon to avoid regular suspension damage. I suspect the state of the roads may be subconsciously intentional on the part of the "Government of state". On the basis of "If they are really bad people will slow down." If so they should be honest and ban excessively powerful new cars in favour of super efficiency. That said I doubt we will see super efficient small engines achieving high mileages before they need to be replaced. Or more likely see the vehicle they came in scrapped. |
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17 Jul 2017, 19:26 (Ref:3752220) | #72 | ||
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I've not seen it happen for a while but then I'm not a daily motorway user these days and thing have moved on but ... If you have ever been alongside a large truck when a tyre blows out the idea of cruising along a motorway for an extended period on autopilot spending long periods beside a row of large trucks might be something you would do almost anything to avoid. On the other hand if being a middle lane road block is one's thing a Tesla is probably the best option for ambience in the absence of being able to afford a chauffeur. |
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17 Jul 2017, 19:55 (Ref:3752234) | #73 | |||
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A lot of people cruise at an indicated 70mph, but don't realise their speedo is by design, optimistic, and that they are actually doing 65. No idea how accurate a Model S speedo is, but would guess very, as likely GPS driven. I've never seen one on a dual carriageway going anything except 70mph +, so maybe you're seeing chauffeur driven or airport taxi cars.... |
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18 Jul 2017, 08:15 (Ref:3752336) | #74 | |||
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It is true that there is some satisfaction to be gained from being very efficient, but just as with 'hyper-milers', you can take it so far as to have very dull journeys! |
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18 Jul 2017, 09:44 (Ref:3752349) | #75 | ||
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Agree. Regarding electric cars and the perceived stereotype owner- I got chatting to another i3 owner this morning. His other cars are Lotus Esprit Turbo and an Elan.
BTW boggi, you should enter the Leaf for the Pom next time instead of the Scooby. Maybe I'll bring the i3.... |
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