[WEC] 2018-2019 WEC Super Season

[Scorchess]

Sounds like a lot of unsubstantiated nonsense to me, but what do I know.

PS: the teams don't pay for freight costs. Guess who does that?

[Akrapovic]

Yeah, that's why teams loved going to Sau Paulo Whilst the FIA and ACO contribute massively to freight, lets not pretend that it's cheaper to fly to Bahrain than it is to pop down the road at Germany (or round the corner in some teams cases).

You can call it unsubstantiated nonsense if you want, but it's just fine to say "I like the tracks in the middle east". Trying to justify it with "It's a WORLD championship!", when it's already an area that's represented, and "But you don't KNOW what a Tilke track will be like" is ridiculous. It's fine to say you like it, but come on? Who are we fooling here?

My point: I don't like seeing series bending over for vanity projects for oil rich countries in unstable regions, especially when the circuit itself is just another stamped out Tilke track. If you disagree, cool. But don't tell me it's a world championship and Tilke has a great track record (see that pun? How good is that? Better than a Tilke track for sure), because that's just unsubstantiated nonsense.

[chernaudi]

Someone named John (either Hindy or Dagys, probably Hindy given what I've read since it was in a pod cast) has been making not too subtle hints that Porsche's LMP1 program may be scaled back or shut down, as soon as the end of this season.

IMO, kinda goes back to Akrapovic's point about the ACO making short-ish term gains with little respect to possible long term ramifications or solutions. First the ACO lost Audi Sport, not just two guaranteed entries in LMP1, but Audi and Audi Sport took their cast investments, promotion, advertising, fan activation--all basically free on the ACO's part--with them. Should Porsche leave, the ACO IMO are screwed as far as factory teams being in LMP1 at least until 2020. Toyota might be back in '18 to win LM again, but after that, I'd expect them to take a sabbatical.

[TF110]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

Yeah, that's why teams loved going to Sau Paulo Whilst the FIA and ACO contribute massively to freight, lets not pretend that it's cheaper to fly to Bahrain than it is to pop down the road at Germany (or round the corner in some teams cases).

You can call it unsubstantiated nonsense if you want, but it's just fine to say "I like the tracks in the middle east". Trying to justify it with "It's a WORLD championship!", when it's already an area that's represented, and "But you don't KNOW what a Tilke track will be like" is ridiculous. It's fine to say you like it, but come on? Who are we fooling here?

My point: I don't like seeing series bending over for vanity projects for oil rich countries in unstable regions, especially when the circuit itself is just another stamped out Tilke track. If you disagree, cool. But don't tell me it's a world championship and Tilke has a great track record (see that pun? How good is that? Better than a Tilke track for sure), because that's just unsubstantiated nonsense.

How is the area represented already if the track in question (Kuwait) would be a replacement for Bahrain? Did you misread and think they were trying to get an additional Middle East race? It sounds like you're the one trying to justify your argument instead of the opposite. Yes, it is a WORLD championship. To me it sounds like you think they should just skip the Middle East because it's 'far away' from the base of the teams in Europe? If traveling the world is a problem for teams, they can always run ELMS. Maybe they should skip Japan, China and America too; they're even further away. Even worse, they're all run on Tilke tracks as well, and you know exactly how those races always play out. And here I thought I was being ridiculous!

[Akrapovic]

How is the area represented already if the track in question (Kuwait) would be a replacement for Bahrain?

Not trying to be a dick here, but I don't think you understand the definition of a world championship by the FIA, and I don't think you understand what continent the middle east is part of. Since Kuwait (and Bahrain) are part of the continent of Asia, and the WEC already has 2 other races there, they are already represented. Trying to get a race in the middle east, and saying "but it's a WORLD championship" are two completely different things. Unless you're counting the middle east as its own continent (which would mean a new continent model), or changing the definition of an FIA World Championship, then it isn't required for a world championship at all.

You make a fair point about travel requires though of course. If you like the circuit, that's just fine, but don't come in and try and tell me a Tilke track is just what we need, and how it's a world championship and should be represented. That's just silly.

However I'm yet to actually see an argument for going there. I don't see what this event would bring to the series that's a positive. Isn't that what the WEC (and any series) be doing? Looking for positive new things? I don't see a vanity project in an unstable region on another cookie cutter stamped out car park as a positive for the series at all. I'm sure it'll get a confirmed 55,000 fans though! I'd rather us going to tracks that people actually enjoy. Next up, someone will tell me Paul Ricard is amazing and the south of France is required for a world championship!

[Akrapovic]

http://www.dailysportscar.com/2017/0...and-notes.html

Interesting stuff here. Porsche about to sell customer cars is good. For the 488 it's cheaper to buy the GT3 car and convert it, which is odd. Grid size concern...well, it'd be nice to expand the grid a little tbh. If we do get an increase in P1 cars (still not buying that until they're at Silverstone), then it'd be sad to lose the small teams which have supported the championship.

[TF110]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

Not trying to be a dick here, but I don't think you understand the definition of a world championship by the FIA, and I don't think you understand what continent the middle east is part of. Since Kuwait (and Bahrain) are part of the continent of Asia, and the WEC already has 2 other races there, they are already represented. Trying to get a race in the middle east, and saying "but it's a WORLD championship" are two completely different things. Unless you're counting the middle east as its own continent (which would mean a new continent model), or changing the definition of an FIA World Championship, then it isn't required for a world championship at all.

I don't think you're a 'dick' but what your saying to me is like someone else saying North America is represented, so they don't need or shouldn't have a race in the U.S and Mexico. Or Asia is represented so they don't need Japan and China, or the Mid-east because that continent is taken care of. Semantics. But wait, Europe is the exception? They can have 4 or 5 races because... that's where the majority of the teams are located? Yes, that's how I take it. The Middle East is Asia, but a distinct region. Just like the U.S. and Mexico are two distinct regions, the latter being Latin America. And India is part of Asia, but a billion people live there with who knows how many motorsport fans. It's another distinct and important region. The Mid-east is home to a large percentage of the sponsors, owners/investors of businesses, teams, manufacturers (McLaren, Aston Martin etc.)

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

You make a fair point about travel requires though of course. If you like the circuit, that's just fine, but don't come in and try and tell me a Tilke track is just what we need, and how it's a world championship and should be represented. That's just silly.

I never said they need a Tilke track. I said that's all you're going to get because there isn't any new 'classic' layouts being made if you want to host world championships with FIA status.

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

However I'm yet to actually see an argument for going there. I don't see what this event would bring to the series that's a positive. Isn't that what the WEC (and any series) be doing? Looking for positive new things? I don't see a vanity project in an unstable region on another cookie cutter stamped out car park as a positive for the series at all. I'm sure it'll get a confirmed 55,000 fans though! I'd rather us going to tracks that people actually enjoy. Next up, someone will tell me Paul Ricard is amazing and the south of France is required for a world championship!

That's an erroneous statement. Everyone knows the troubles the mid-east faces, but Bahrain or Kuwait is not Iraq and Syria. I don't see your issue with it. There doesn't need to be a 'for' argument or an 'against' one. It doesn't matter if 5 or 50,000 people show up for the race. It's a region important enough to the FIA, WEC, whoever to warrant a race there.

[MaskedRacer]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

Someone named John (either Hindy or Dagys, probably Hindy given what I've read since it was in a pod cast) has been making not too subtle hints that Porsche's LMP1 program may be scaled back or shut down, as soon as the end of this season.

IMO, kinda goes back to Akrapovic's point about the ACO making short-ish term gains with little respect to possible long term ramifications or solutions. First the ACO lost Audi Sport, not just two guaranteed entries in LMP1, but Audi and Audi Sport took their cast investments, promotion, advertising, fan activation--all basically free on the ACO's part--with them. Should Porsche leave, the ACO IMO are screwed as far as factory teams being in LMP1 at least until 2020. Toyota might be back in '18 to win LM again, but after that, I'd expect them to take a sabbatical.

I don't think I would mind that actually. It would shake things up and it would be a free for all for the overall win between the LMP1 privateers and maybe the LMP2 winner could mix it up with them.

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by TF110

I don't think you're a 'dick' but what your saying to me is like someone else saying North America is represented, so they don't need or shouldn't have a race in the U.S and Mexico. Or Asia is represented so they don't need Japan and China, or the Mid-east because that continent is taken care of. Semantics. But wait, Europe is the exception? They can have 4 or 5 races because... that's where the majority of the teams are located? Yes, that's how I take it. The Middle East is Asia, but a distinct region. Just like the U.S. and Mexico are two distinct regions, the latter being Latin America. And India is part of Asia, but a billion people live there with who knows how many motorsport fans. It's another distinct and important region. The Mid-east is home to a large percentage of the sponsors, owners/investors of businesses, teams, manufacturers (McLaren, Aston Martin etc.)

I think that locations should actually add something to the series. Strictly speaking, you only need one event in X amount of locations to qualify as a World Championship - that's why I disagree with the opinion of this being a world championship, therefore it should go to the middle east.

However Yeah I do think that if we're just going down the world championship route, then no you don't need China if you have Japan, and you don't need Mexico if you have America, and you don't need anything else if you have Le Mans. But I do think all circuits should actually bring something to the series. China is quite simply the biggest market in the world, and manages surprisingly strong spectator numbers (usually to do with free entry though). Japan is motorsport mad, and frankly deserves a race. Silverstone has a ridiculous amount of history that we should not ignore, Spa is possibly the best race track in the world, Nurburgring gets the best spectator numbers outside of Le Mans. I think those places have earned their spot. COTA becomes a problem because it just isn't that popular, and the track really isn't that good. Mexico brought some insane fans, and was very popular, as well as having RGR backing. The circuit wasn't the best but wasn't the worst (apart from the final section). So you could argue about them deserving their place for weeks, but I think we'd all agree we'd prefer Sebring or something.

I don't see what Bahrain provides to the series other than being the crown princes play toy. I don't see what Kuwait will offer. Therefore since they aren't required to meet the World Championship status, I don't see why one of the few rounds we get should be wasted on them.

Spectator numbers are generally a good place to go for motorsport fan numbers. Unfortunately, the ACO tends to post 55,000 every race. There could be 5 people and a donkey turn up, and the ACO would post 55,000. But even if you look at F1 numbers you can see a clear trend of China, Silverstone and Mexico being popular, with Bahrain not being. India might have a billion people living there, but a strong motorsport community it most certainly doesn't have. The Indian GP was a bit of a disaster with empty grand stands being covered with multi coloured sheets, and cameras panning below them. There's plenty of other evidence which points to events in these areas simply not being popular. When you have a very limited season, I don't think it's wise to waste events on regions you know are unpopular.

If you start going where money is rather than where is popular and where fans want to see races, you end up with ridiculous things like Spa being dropped from the F1 Calendar and what not. I don't think that's the way things should go, and I do think F1 should pose as a warning that moving away from popular events and migrating to the vanity projects will see a downturn in popularity and end very suddenly when the oil man gets bored of you.

So I personally do see it as a "what does this bring to the calendar", and I don't see what Kuwait brings. I see literally no positive to the series. If they're going for just a bit of quick cash, then oh dear - that's what we've been complaining about with F1 and Bernie for decades. I don't want to see the WEC going down the route of being a vanity project when we still don't have firm popular races in North America, for example. And I do believe it's important if 5 or 55,000 people turn up for a race. If only a handful of people were turning up, there would be a serious problem.

I never said they need a Tilke track. I said that's all you're going to get because there isn't any new 'classic' layouts being made if you want to host world championships with FIA status.

You asked me how I know the track will be dull, to which I replied asking how you'd know a Ferrari F1 car would be red We all know what this track will be right now - generally flat with a fake hill in it somewhere, small radius corners with apexes you clip rather than hug to, a massive expanse of tarmac, possibly with some stripes on it, and a whole lot of lights and flashy things like hotels to show how much money they have.

That's an erroneous statement. Everyone knows the troubles the mid-east faces, but Bahrain or Kuwait is not Iraq and Syria. I don't see your issue with it. There doesn't need to be a 'for' argument or an 'against' one. It doesn't matter if 5 or 50,000 people show up for the race. It's a region important enough to the FIA, WEC, whoever to warrant a race there.

Kuwait almost was Iraq Hence the wars. Bahrain has had its fair share of problems, and the same thing could've been said about Qatar only a couple of weeks ago. Looked pretty calm and fine there. I wonder if MotoGP is breathing a sign of relief that they managed to avoid that massive issue by only a couple of months.

What would I do? Well if Bahrain wants out then I'd let them go. I'd do my best to keep Mexico given how popular it was, but if they don't recover from the current financial problems then it might not be possible. I'd consider Monza post Le Mans, which would give the Le Mans aero kit another run. If Austin was still not proving popular, I'd be going talking to IMSA to see if they'd be willing to host a WEC race there, and I'd do it at the end of the season. Finish in Sebring, possibly on an 8 hour event rather than 12 (so as not to disrupt the history of the 12 hour). Make it the championship decided! That'd perhaps help the popularity in the United States. And if we were to look at new regions, then another look at Sau Paulo should be considered, and Kyalami has just been given a refurbishment and should be looked at. I'd also vary the race lengths more. They said they wanted every race to feel like a special event - well it doesn't when they're all 6 hours. I'd be looking at any of this before I looked at the Bernie route in Kuwait.

[broadrun96]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

I think that locations should actually add something to the series. Strictly speaking, you only need one event in X amount of locations to qualify as a World Championship - that's why I disagree with the opinion of this being a world championship, therefore it should go to the middle east.

However Yeah I do think that if we're just going down the world championship route, then no you don't need China if you have Japan, and you don't need Mexico if you have America, and you don't need anything else if you have Le Mans. But I do think all circuits should actually bring something to the series. China is quite simply the biggest market in the world, and manages surprisingly strong spectator numbers (usually to do with free entry though). Japan is motorsport mad, and frankly deserves a race. Silverstone has a ridiculous amount of history that we should not ignore, Spa is possibly the best race track in the world, Nurburgring gets the best spectator numbers outside of Le Mans. I think those places have earned their spot. COTA becomes a problem because it just isn't that popular, and the track really isn't that good. Mexico brought some insane fans, and was very popular, as well as having RGR backing. The circuit wasn't the best but wasn't the worst (apart from the final section). So you could argue about them deserving their place for weeks, but I think we'd all agree we'd prefer Sebring or something.

I don't see what Bahrain provides to the series other than being the crown princes play toy. I don't see what Kuwait will offer. Therefore since they aren't required to meet the World Championship status, I don't see why one of the few rounds we get should be wasted on them.

Spectator numbers are generally a good place to go for motorsport fan numbers. Unfortunately, the ACO tends to post 55,000 every race. There could be 5 people and a donkey turn up, and the ACO would post 55,000. But even if you look at F1 numbers you can see a clear trend of China, Silverstone and Mexico being popular, with Bahrain not being. India might have a billion people living there, but a strong motorsport community it most certainly doesn't have. The Indian GP was a bit of a disaster with empty grand stands being covered with multi coloured sheets, and cameras panning below them. There's plenty of other evidence which points to events in these areas simply not being popular. When you have a very limited season, I don't think it's wise to waste events on regions you know are unpopular.

If you start going where money is rather than where is popular and where fans want to see races, you end up with ridiculous things like Spa being dropped from the F1 Calendar and what not. I don't think that's the way things should go, and I do think F1 should pose as a warning that moving away from popular events and migrating to the vanity projects will see a downturn in popularity and end very suddenly when the oil man gets bored of you.

So I personally do see it as a "what does this bring to the calendar", and I don't see what Kuwait brings. I see literally no positive to the series. If they're going for just a bit of quick cash, then oh dear - that's what we've been complaining about with F1 and Bernie for decades. I don't want to see the WEC going down the route of being a vanity project when we still don't have firm popular races in North America, for example. And I do believe it's important if 5 or 55,000 people turn up for a race. If only a handful of people were turning up, there would be a serious problem.



You asked me how I know the track will be dull, to which I replied asking how you'd know a Ferrari F1 car would be red We all know what this track will be right now - generally flat with a fake hill in it somewhere, small radius corners with apexes you clip rather than hug to, a massive expanse of tarmac, possibly with some stripes on it, and a whole lot of lights and flashy things like hotels to show how much money they have.


Kuwait almost was Iraq Hence the wars. Bahrain has had its fair share of problems, and the same thing could've been said about Qatar only a couple of weeks ago. Looked pretty calm and fine there. I wonder if MotoGP is breathing a sign of relief that they managed to avoid that massive issue by only a couple of months.

What would I do? Well if Bahrain wants out then I'd let them go. I'd do my best to keep Mexico given how popular it was, but if they don't recover from the current financial problems then it might not be possible. I'd consider Monza post Le Mans, which would give the Le Mans aero kit another run. If Austin was still not proving popular, I'd be going talking to IMSA to see if they'd be willing to host a WEC race there, and I'd do it at the end of the season. Finish in Sebring, possibly on an 8 hour event rather than 12 (so as not to disrupt the history of the 12 hour). Make it the championship decided! That'd perhaps help the popularity in the United States. And if we were to look at new regions, then another look at Sau Paulo should be considered, and Kyalami has just been given a refurbishment and should be looked at. I'd also vary the race lengths more. They said they wanted every race to feel like a special event - well it doesn't when they're all 6 hours. I'd be looking at any of this before I looked at the Bernie route in Kuwait.

Wow, that's a lot of writing to basically say "cause I think it will suck and I know what's best for sportscars." So far I haven't seen on your CV a single entry in actual sportscar or racing management and yet you're an expert?? Sorry but if Kuwait pays enough to make up for the money losers at other tracks and travel expenses, guess what the ACO will go for it every time and ask you to push off.

There's ZERO chance of Sebring running a WEC event with their limited use schedule being fairly full already. Kyalami would make the boards catch fire with all of the sanitized modernity complaints. Sao Paulo would have to purchased by the FIA to make it work, the track needs CASH and lots of it, they aren't paying a red cent to get the WEC. But hey, why use that cash you could make to prop the series up, better to cut off your arm than fix a break and tell everyone everything is better as you bleed to death.

[chernaudi]

Sadly, most sportscar fans hate most Tilke Grade 1 tracks (I think the only thing keeping Watkins Glen from being a full Grade 1 is the lack of F1 or LM style garage stalls built next to the pits), and the Middle East doesn't exactly have a car/motorsports culture.

I'm not a fan of the sanitized Grade 1 tracks, but they're the only tracks that are guaranteed to have LM pit garages (though LM itself is a Grade 2), and all the stuff the ACO's VIPs want.

And I do agree with Akrapovic's concerns that if things go upside down in the Middle East, the race could be there today, gone tomorrow, which we're already there (albeit for different reasons) for COTA and Mexico City. And I know that spectator numbers haven't been good for COTA or Bahrain. And we know that Bahrain is on the schedule because the royal family is willing to pay for it, which is why the WEC hasn't raced at Yaz Marina.

A lot of this is basically a Bernie Eccostone money grab. Notice how when Liberty Media took over FOM that they're trying to move back to some of the more traditional races vs where the easy quick money lays. The ACO really need to take a lesson from that, and not just for the races on the schedule. They made money grabs by keeping Audi as long as they did, and getting Toyota and Porsche, whilst screwing privateer teams and creating rules that kept other factory teams out.

And right now, we've gone from three factory teams (two if you want to lump Audi Sport and Porsche Motorsport as part of VAG), to two, and if rumors are to believed, we might be down to one as soon as the end of the season. Though it's just rumors at this stage, John Dagys has said that some ominous news will be coming soon, and Hindy at RLM/Midweek Motorsports has been dropping hints that Porsche's future isn't certain beyond the end of this season.

Yeah, a new race is a new race, and hopefully the Kuwait track is good, and there's some good news on the privateer LMP1 front, but there's reasons to be negative or suspicious/worried about the future, too.

[Articus]

I don't know I would react to a Porsche pull out....
They are currently the only manufacturer pulling twice their weight with GTE and LMP1.


Where do you think the sport would be if VAG never bought Porsche?

[chernaudi]

I don't think that Porsche would totally kill off the GT program, since they're rumored to be trying to sell customer cars next season. But I can see LMP1 going by the wayside.

[deggis]

Hindy said that in which week's MWM? Last week?

I need to hear it in context before I give any value to it.

[chernaudi]

I heard of him dropping hints as to Porsche's possible LMP1 pull out over the course of the past few days. Can't be more than a couple of days old.

[deggis]

Should be in these then...

Last week's MWM: http://www.radiolemans.co/2017/06/07...12-episode-22/
And LM coverage (test day + scrutineering): http://www.radiolemans.co/2017/06/06/le-mans-2017/

[Akrapovic]

Hindy has made a few passing comments that he expects Porsche will leave soon. Also says Audi will be back for Peugeot. I like Hindy but I think he's wide of the mark on those.

[chernaudi]

Motorsport Akutell (however it's spelled) are now also reporting rumors that Porsche may be leaving the WEC soon. The Porsche leaving LMP1 rumors do seem to be gaining traction since Dagys' cryptic tweet a couple of days ago.

As far as Audi being back before Peugeot? If Porsche leaves and VAG want a LMP1 presence, Audi or maybe Lamborghini (which Volkswagen Group put Audi in charge of) might be back in. And Peugeot, as we well know, will only be back if there's severe cost cutting, something that will make a return by Audi or an entry from Lamborghini easier.

However, I can't see either of these things (an Audi Sport/Lamborghini or Peugeot entry) before 2020.

It seems that the transition between regs weeding out factory teams and an entry slump is already happening.

[Akrapovic]

I don't see it being Lambo. The ACO is pushing the fuel and energy conservation route. That works for Toyota, Peugeot and Audi, but Lambo don't produce a road car below 5L, or with less than 10 cylinders. I could see a Lambo GTE before anything else.

[Scorchess]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

Motorsport Akutell (however it's spelled) are now also reporting rumors that Porsche may be leaving the WEC soon.

Provide a link, because if that's true it's very well hidden on the website. The LM24 preview article does not mention it.

[chernaudi]

But here's the critical thing as far as dieselgate (the coverstory that VAG used to cover the Audi Sport pull out): Lamborghini doesn't have a diesel, while though sales of them are still strong in the EU and elsewhere outside of NA (not that they were setting the world on fire there anyways), Audi had tons of them throughout their model range, and even Porsche has cars that use Audi diesel engines in them.

Granted, I doubt that dieselgate in actuality has little to do with VAG scaling back from LM--it probably has a lot more to do with politics (both within VAG and between them and the ACO), relatively low ROI for the WEC outside of Le Mans on a dollar vs exposure basis, and the ACO painting LMP1-H teams into the 8MJ gasoline corner, not to mention that it's taken VAG between Audi Sport and Porsche Motorsport the budget of the Mercedes AMG F1 team to run two programs by two different VAG divisions.

Even TMG's budget, even if they're claiming that it's quarter of their F1 budget, is probably north of $100 million if they're using their biggest budget year as the example.

[Scorchess]

Yeah yeah we've all seen that copy paste a few times. Provide a link please as asked.

[Scorchess]

A random forum post saying something that's not true is not a good source I'm afraid!

[Melcor]

Originally Posted by GT6

After cutting those races to 4 hours what next two hours, sorry but endurance racing is what it says, 6 hours is an absolute minimum no shorter or it will go the way of F1 boring processions.

Im totally agree with you.I love 6 hours format and anything less will be borring imo.The idea of longer races in some tracks will be wonderfull,for example 10 hours of spa(the track is really suitable for longer races) and it will be cool to end with some big race.Lets say 12 hours at Monza

[broadrun96]

Originally Posted by Scorchess

A random forum post saying something that's not true is not a good source I'm afraid!

Ah yes, being critical and requiring proof of educated conclusions. Are you new to the world of pr? No company will outright say why, how or anything unless they have to so all you have in educated conclusions from people who can read and make their own conclusions. Not everything has to be typed out and signed to be fact.