[Team] Ferrari: in F1

[chillibowl]

a devils advocate response response then!

are Ferrari against a simpler engine per say or are they just not interested in being told what to do/want to dictate the terms of the game themselves? they could use any engine formula as long as they get to decide which one it is.

-so from a fan point of view, if Ferrari just said they wanted a new series using say V12 or V10 engines and dusted off some old designs, then that may prove more enticing to fans. either way if they leave the tifosi leaves with them and thats a bulk of the fans right there and little to no new r&d expenditures.

while that would also give them a monopoly on engine sales it would also create a spec series where the Ferrari A- team wins every year so for how long it could stay popular would be an obvious concern.

-in this day and age could the FIA really employ tactics preventing tracks and partners from entering into a new series. there is enough anti-trust stuff going on that they may have difficulty in enforcing such exclusionary practices certainly within Europe and the US....the question here then becomes who has the better lawyers?

i think there is possibility the FIA would buckle immediately...especially if the break away series gave the FIA a bigger slice of the commercial pie.

-arguably Ferrari and the potential for more FIAT IPOs may be all the financial backing they need. if you will, a self directed marketing platform so the series could be in a position to fund itself....plus they got that Philip Morris money!

anyways, i agree, its a huge gamble and probably just an elaborate negotiation tactic.

but that said, as a matter of principle im against 'ownership' so that means im with the teams on this one and with Ferrari currently being the most vocal of the engine manus they are taking the brunt of the criticism.

Merc and Renault also seem to have many issues (even the same ones as ferrari) with the proposed new engine direction and for the time being seem content to let Ferrari carry the water on this issue.

i do miss the days of Martin Whitmarsh's FOTA though as his level headed demeanor really set a constructive tone...Marchionne comes across as a bit of a bully so it is hard to be on his side....have to concede that point!

[Richard C]

To your point, I think Ferrari could do a throwback simple engine, and I agree maybe all they really want is to decide what they want to use even if it is a simple engine. But even then, either they have a relatively open formula (which may require extra cost for anyone new who is joining to figure out what is the best solution), or they create a closed specification (which they say they don't want and pretty much replicates the current situation minus complexity).

I don't think FIA can employ tactics of the past. If Ferrari wants to start a series, let them have at it. Don't punish drivers, etc. I can say that FIA would still do what they can within reason to make life difficult for Ferrari.

Richard

[P38 in workshop]

Not so much a comment about Ferrari in F1-rather an observation about what the fallout might cause.Just as Bernie always bunged money at Ferrari to keep them onside,he also undermined sportscars when they gained support and manufacturers.If Ferrari were to apply even a quarter of their resources to a top line sportscar campaign they might achieve a proportionally greater amount of acclaim.They could almost certainly dominate the GTE category just by spending the F1 department's flower budget.Arriving at the top of more than one category of racing while spending much less money might appeal to Sergio Marchionne.With the slide in ratings for F1 over the last few years Liberty need to stop the rot urgently and losing the most historic name is no way to do this.It would also devalue a win in a Ferrari-free series for any subsequent champion.

[Oldtony]

Originally Posted by P38 in workshop

Not so much a comment about Ferrari in F1-rather an observation about what the fallout might cause.
If Ferrari were to apply even a quarter of their resources to a top line sportscar campaign they might achieve a proportionally greater amount of acclaim.
With the slide in ratings for F1 over the last few years Liberty need to stop the rot urgently and losing the most historic name is no way to do this..

RBR/Aston Martin, Mercedes and McLaren all have a leg in the VERY high performance Roadable race car market and VAG (Audi/Porsche Lambergini) are players.
Could we see a resurgence of the 50/60s when sportscar racing was much bigger in terms of fan following than F1?
Might suit the Manufacturers when coupled with FE to develop and showcase their technology far better than the strangulation imposed by F1 regulations.

[F1Guy]

Ferrari are using future sporting and technical regulations as the reason for them wanting to pull out. But let's get real. It's most likely the $100M per year bonus which is under review being the real reason for them wanting to pull out.

Another thing I didn't like about Marchionne - is the way he finger pointed and singled out Ross Brawn as being "the problem" on FOM/Liberty Media's side. That was truly unprofessional. And unjust. Brawn has been a breath of fresh air for F1.

Ferrari have short memories. When Ferrari dominated F1 in the 2000's, who was it that was a lead figure at the team in that time??

I sincerely hope that Ferrari do leave F1. Would be a breath of fresh air.

[BSchneiderFan]

I can't really believe that anyone who has an ounce of feeling for the heritage of Formula 1 thinks the sport would be better off without Ferrari.

[F1Guy]

Originally Posted by BSchneiderFan

I can't really believe that anyone who has an ounce of feeling for the heritage of Formula 1 thinks the sport would be better off without Ferrari.

Why so? F1 would be better off if Ferrari left IMO. If Ferrari don't want to be part of the future of F1, then leave. Are we as F1 fans supposed to hang on to the past - and Ferrari's apparent "heritage" just so they can dictate terms in F1? Are we to put up with the series being stale or even going backwards just to appease Ferrari??

IMO, one of the good things that could happen if Ferrari left, would be to distribute the extra $100M bonus Ferrari receives among the mid to lower end teams to help bring them up the grid, and in doing so hopefully produce better and much more exciting racing.

I fully agree with the below, by ESPN's Nate Saunders regarding Ferrari's threats. And believe FOM/LM should hold the door wide open for Ferrari to walk through. Enough of the games and favouritism.

Undoubtedly, if Ferrari ever did follow through with one of its many quit threats, it would be a significant blow for Formula One in the short term. But the idea that somehow F1 would be unable to survive without the Italian team is ridiculous -- there is much more to the top level of motorsport than having two red cars on the grid every year.

F1 has been guilty of treating Ferrari with far too much reverence for a long time. It currently gets a ridiculously good deal for being in the sport. It gets paid (very well) just to show up and can veto proposals it doesn't like. All of that comes guaranteed regardless of where it finishes -- it has not won a title in a decade despite the favourable terms of its deal.

As for the idea that a title won in an F1 without Ferrari would lack value: an energy drinks company has won eight F1 titles in the 10 years Ferrari -- the team supposedly bigger than the whole sport -- has failed to win one. History has demonstrated that fans will watch F1 regardless of how Enzo Ferrari's team is doing. F1's golden era of the late 1980s and early 1990s also came during a barren spell, one that saw the team go 21 years without a drivers' championship -- that lack of success hardly diminished the value of the championships won during that time. The biggest star of that era, Ayrton Senna, became a global icon despite never once driving in its iconic red colours. If you take away its dominant spell of the early 2000s, Ferrari's on-track performances in the past few decades hardly warrant the mythology that always comes with the Maranello team.

Away from F1, Ferrari holds a very prestigious place in what is still a niche and elite market: selling supercars. F1's rule makers have unveiled an engine blueprint for beyond the 2020 season that, among other things, hopes to lure new manufacturers. That includes the likes of Aston Martin and Porsche, while fellow supercar maker McLaren uses F1 as the main platform for its own multifaceted company. As driver-turned-TV-pundit Martin Brundle pointed out in a tweet last week, nothing has the global reach of Formula One in motorsport and those other companies would gleefully step into Ferrari's place at the top table of the sport's biggest series. Whether Ferrari's brand would be affected by leaving is another argument, but F1 would not struggle to find willing replacements.

Red Bull has issued several similar threats to quit in recent seasons, all of which seemed as hollow as Marchionne's most recent declaration. Why? Because Red Bull would be foolish to walk away, and Dietrich Mateschitz knows it. None of its other projects comes anywhere close to the sort of exposure it gets from being one of the biggest teams in motorsport's premier category. F1 would continue without both.

Regardless of who lines up on the grid, F1 will always be the best drivers in the world driving the best cars at the best venues in the world -- if Ferrari doesn't want its brand to be a part of that anymore, Liberty Media should hold the door open for it to leave rather than be held to ransom about the future of the sport.

http://www.espn.com.au/f1/story/_/id...y-need-ferrari

A public vote here.
https://www.motorsportmagazine.com/o...errari-threats

[BSchneiderFan]

One doesn't need to agree with everything Ferrari does to think that the sport would be poorer without its presence.

[ASCII Man]

Any sport that so desperately clings to its past is pretty much doomed to become the past. I hope Ferrari leaves, or gets thrown out. Preferably the latter.

Likewise for Mercedes.

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by F1Guy

I fully agree with the below, by ESPN's Nate Saunders regarding Ferrari's threats. And believe FOM/LM should hold the door wide open for Ferrari to walk through. Enough of the games and favouritism.

I didn’t read the article you linked, but I fully agree with the bit you quoted.

Would Ferrari be missed? Absolutely! But an exit would not have to be forever and if their absence for a period of time is the price to pay for the institution of needed commercial changes, then so be it. What would be unfortunate is if Ferrari leaves and F1 doesn’t do the right thing when it comes to changes. Ferrari leaving may just allow another monster to rise up.

Richard

[wnut]

Originally Posted by BSchneiderFan

One doesn't need to agree with everything Ferrari does to think that the sport would be poorer without its presence.

To me the damage done by Ferrari staying in the sport with the unfair revenue distribution system and the overpriced engines and silly aero is much greater than Ferrari's exit resulting in significant changes in these areas within the sport.

So Ferrari these are the new rules, stay or go, your choice!

[loon]

Originally Posted by ASCII Man

Any sport that so desperately clings to its past is pretty much doomed to become the past. I hope Ferrari leaves, or gets thrown out. Preferably the latter.

Likewise for Mercedes.

I would also like to see Renault, Williams, Red Bull, McLaren and perhaps Haas thrown out and then we can watch lots of victories for pink painted cars

[ASCII Man]

Yes, because those are the manufacturers that keep threatening to leave the sport if they don't get what they want, right? Jesus Christ, what is wrong with you?!

[loon]

Originally Posted by ASCII Man

Yes, because those are the manufacturers that keep threatening to leave the sport if they don't get what they want, right? Jesus Christ, what is wrong with you?!

sorry but I just love a good spring clean every once in a while

[hondafan37]

According to La Gazzetta dello Sport The Ferrari of 2018 will have 60 mm more of basewheel and the Mercedes W09 will have 100mm less of that.
Then the base wheels of both cars will be very close.

https://i.imgur.com/E58h6aZ.png

[wnut]

Originally Posted by hondafan37

According to La Gazzetta dello Sport The Ferrari of 2018 will have 60 mm more of basewheel and the Mercedes W09 will have 100mm less of that.
Then the base wheels of both cars will be very close.

https://i.imgur.com/E58h6aZ.png

There was this article that was quite interesting in the difference in the wheelbases of the cars and the reasoning.

https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/f...ercedes-i.html

[coppice]

Formula One needs Ferrari far more than the reverse. It is the most successful team and has employed more charismatic and talented drivers than any other team. It builds its own cars and in the days of garagiste teams was one of the very few to build engine chassis and gearbox . It also builds the most desired , and , in most respects , the best sports cars in the world , and has done for decades (we'll draw a veil over the 348 perhaps ) .

But far, far , more importantly they polarise opinion like nobody else. Every pantomime needs its prancing horse and/or villain ...

And Kimi bleeding Raikkonen more important than Ascari? Of course he is - if you are twelve ....

[F1Guy]

Originally Posted by F1Guy

..it is rumoured Ferrari could be covering the camera lens so as that it does not record video of the steering wheel and/or the data screens in front of the driver while in the garage/grid. Seems as though they don't want some sensitive information to be revealed via the FOM camera.

I posted the above almost a month ago. Motorsport.com has just published THIS article on the intrigue surrounding the Ferrari "ice bag" seen in the last few rounds.

One of the theories as to why they do it....

One other theory is that the cooling bag is being used not for an ultimate performance gain, but as the way of helping Ferrari keep hold of any advantage it already has – by blocking what its rivals can see.

Indeed, onboard footage of the Ferraris on the grid at Hockenheim and Hungary showed that when the camera bag was in place, it conveniently blocked the camera lens – meaning the team's pre-race preparations inside the cockpit and more especially its steering wheel settings were hidden from view.

Whether it is something Ferrari are doing to 'cool the FOM camera' or 'hide sensitive data', it sure has the other F1 engineers raising eyebrows. Added to the intrigue surrounding the Ferrari ERS (which BTW has prompted Mercedes to delay the introduction of the latest spec motor, was to be introduced at Spa), it is a story that will not go away. Seems some teams are still seeking more clarification from the FiA as to what is allowed and what is within the rules.

[Richard C]

I think that same topic was discussed by (I think) the Sky broadcast team in the paddock during the race weekend in which the topic came up? The speculation then (as you say) was it was more likely about preventing the onboard camera from seeing something. It sounds very plausible.

Richard

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

I think that same topic was discussed by (I think) the Sky broadcast team in the paddock during the race weekend in which the topic came up? The speculation then (as you say) was it was more likely about preventing the onboard camera from seeing something. It sounds very plausible.

Richard

It's bounced around as a discussion point for a while now, with nothing new really coming to light yet.

Which seems to be fuelling the tin hat brigade, and allowing those with agendas to keep banging their drums.

If there was really something genuinely untoward happening, it would surely have been pressed harder by the other teams by now?

[S griffin]

I agree, I think if the other teams accept it, then so should everyone else

[Akrapovic]

There's also a completely made up assumption that if a team is hiding something then it must be illegal. In reality, they all hide the completely legal performance gaining tech that they use. But that doesn't fit the agenda being pushed here.

[F1Guy]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

They've decided to put some electronics of their own in that cavity space, alongside the FOM kit. As a result, the onus is on them to prevent overheating. Other teams place the same electronics somewhere else in the car - so it's FOM's issue if they get overheating at the camera.

Well, looks like that was a load of bullshit after all, as most sane people had suspected. The FiA have stepped in and told (not asked) Ferrari to stop covering a FOM camera with a dry ice bag, or any other item. This was prior to the start of the Monza GP. So what did Ferrari do? They covered the cockpit with an umbrella while the car was on the grid.

Overheating camera indeed.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by F1Guy

Well, looks like that was a load of bullshit after all, as most sane people had suspected. The FiA have stepped in and told (not asked) Ferrari to stop covering a FOM camera with a dry ice bag, or any other item. This was prior to the start of the Monza GP. So what did Ferrari do? They covered the cockpit with an umbrella while the car was on the grid.

Overheating camera indeed.

OK - what is the official instruction from FiA to Ferrari?
The overheating camera issue still remains, hence the covering of a cockpit with an umbrella. If it was to shield what the camera was seeing (as some people looking for a conspiracy theory have speculated), then an umbrella would serve no purpose.

What is clear is that Ferrari are trying to keep the camera temperature down - whether this is due to extra electronics, or another reason, remains to be seen. What we do know though is that:

'The operating temperature range of onboard cameras is between 50 and 120C. However Ferrari has discovered the heat soak from its car when stationary has been high enough to overheat the camera and cause it to automatically switch off.
The team has therefore begun cooling the camera between runs by placing a bag over it and packing it with dry ice.
The overheating problem was first discovered during the particularly high temperatures at last year’s Brazilian Grand Prix. Mercedes has recently followed suit.'

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

OK - what is the official instruction from FiA to Ferrari?
The overheating camera issue still remains, hence the covering of a cockpit with an umbrella. If it was to shield what the camera was seeing (as some people looking for a conspiracy theory have speculated), then an umbrella would serve no purpose.

What is clear is that Ferrari are trying to keep the camera temperature down - whether this is due to extra electronics, or another reason, remains to be seen. What we do know though is that:

'The operating temperature range of onboard cameras is between 50 and 120C. However Ferrari has discovered the heat soak from its car when stationary has been high enough to overheat the camera and cause it to automatically switch off.
The team has therefore begun cooling the camera between runs by placing a bag over it and packing it with dry ice.
The overheating problem was first discovered during the particularly high temperatures at last year’s Brazilian Grand Prix. Mercedes has recently followed suit.'

Oh, that's interesting. And completely changes the entire situation.