HSCC - The Martini Trophy - The NEW 1970s 2-litre Sports Prototype Racing car Series!

[john ruston]

I think running with single seaters is a good idea.
We have one of those B40 things.

[James Murray]

When did wings come out? Could end up with no wing class cars legitametely claiming to have run alloy bdg/420r/m12 pre invention of wing cars as there maybe overlap between alloy engine and wings. Ideally best bet would be all non wing cars to have iron BD/FV engine and if has alloy then must run in later class. Is 25kg enough? This debate seems to have been over looked in F2 and 72 cars can run alloy engine.

[Chris Sharples]

We have agreed that compulsory reading at the HSCC is the French book
"Championnat d'Europe des Sport-Protos 2 litres 1970-1975" written by Christian Naviaux published by Editions du Palmier.

I am sure Ted knows the answer about when wings arrived but looking through the pix in the book they seemed to arrive late in the 1972 season. Notably Guy Edwards Lola 290 'Barclay International' car was wingless at the June 1972 Martini International at Silverstone whereas at Ricard in the following May his 292 had one.

Ted will also have a better grasp than me on how the draft regs deal with James' plan to drive a coach and four horses through the class structure. I seem to remember it's about 'in period specification and conformity with papers......'

On weights, well I don't know what the 'right' difference should be but we are going to talk openly with 'neutral' experts. We want to get it right so we create enjoyable racing for cars from throughout the period.

Chris

[john ruston]

Sounds better and better!
Need some neutrals to devise weight classification.Will soon tell if they have correct answer after first couple of races when it could be rejigged.

Wing thing is obvious.
If it has a wing its in one class if not the other.

[delta]

Been dragged away by Mike but please can we have a look at letting us grass roots<racers in with pre 80 sports 2000.

[Tim Falce]

Originally Posted by p261brm

FVC:- Four Valve Chevron, at least at 105 Chorley Old Road is what it stood for...

O/T, I used to live just down the road from there.

I couldn't find it anywhere but is this for cars solely built in the 70s or will continuations be allowed?

I'll get me coat.

[John Turner]

No continuations, I believe, and Chris has also answered already the question re Sport 2000s. 'No' to them as well. Provided the grid sizes stack up, I think it would be wise to stick to the original intention.

[SAMD]

Originally Posted by delta

Been dragged away by Mike but please can we have a look at letting us grass roots<racers in with pre 80 sports 2000.

Ditto to this Iain, but I fear John is right and if the Grids are ok....

[Delbert]

All interesting stuff. I am fortunate to have a non wing & a winged car so will potentially change horses mid stream!
Looks like we will be getting an FVC for the B19 for CER anyway. Still waiting for the rules in writing tho' before buying a white elephant.
How many variations of an FVC are there? hopefully they are clear on what is allowed (ie steel 1850 block).

[simon drabble]

I cannot understand why a B8 driver would not be lobbying to be included into the new series as a proper class. It must be like an adult playing with kids in Guards for them.
Power difference aside just compare the size of rear tyre to 23b's etc!!
I know for a fact every B8 that moved would be replaced by a GT or pre 66 sports racer that currently does not come out due to the B8's.

[john ruston]

You will need steel block for CER as they don't want to see those ally blocks in CER1for early cars.
It needs calender to be published as soon as possible as assume Mid May ,Silverstone will be first HSCC race followed two weeks later by CER Spa.
Both double headers.
Perhaps need another car Kevin with all this stuff!

[morninggents]

How many variations of an FVC are there? hopefully they are clear on what is allowed (ie steel 1850 block).[/QUOTE]

The original FVC was iron block with 85.6 bore (same as DFV and FVA) and 77.62 stroke (same as original BDA) giving 1787cc.

[John Turner]

Originally Posted by simon drabble

I cannot understand why a B8 driver would not be lobbying to be included into the new series as a proper class. It must be like an adult playing with kids in Guards for them.

Well, why would they when they are the front of the Guards series, but probably closer to the back in the new series? That argument is just as valid as it is to the slower classes in the Guards series, besides they have their own battles with each other, so I doubt that they think of it as kids stuff. Furthermore, of course, the new series is for 1970s sports racers and I think that it is the intention to retain the purity, where possible of that period. I would be lobbying hard for the inclusion of B16s before contemplating an invitation class for the B8s, cars clearly grounded in the 60's. For the same reason, I suggest that Sport 2000s cars would come even further down the pecking order since they are a different kettle of fish altogether.

The aim is to get enough 1970s sports racers to the grids for the new series and like all new series, the numbers will possibly not be ideal to start with, but we need to see what the grid sizes are like towards the end of next season or even into 2012 before any tinkering takes place, although there is nothing to stop HSCC bolstering early grids with an invitation class if they feel the need. Personally, I wouldn't want to see that, and I hasten to add that although an HSCC member all the views I express here are my own.

[simon drabble]

John I think you have really highlighted the reason why I am amazed at B8's current value's... they fall (albeit very elegantly) between two stools. They are not pre 66 yet the are not 70's.

[john ruston]

But can race some where every weekend and are easy to drive.
HSCC,CER,Masters,V De V and so on.
Possible to road register.
Why nobody has not won Tour Britannia with one beats me.MS/SH with B6 had a go.
The values are set by the market and cars sold.

[simon drabble]

John you are right, they are eligible for many things, no one disputes their charm and I will have to take your word for it as to the driveability (and there was I thinking that they were talented pilotes!) but it doesn't get away from the fact that apart from Guards (where they are an invitation class) they are not front running (because they then compete with B16's etc)
Hasn't Tour Auto stopped letting them enter - I presume MS/SH had good reason to not use their B6 again given they both have a healthy sense of competitiveness.

Please do not think I am B8 bashing far from it I am just amazed asto their values (£300k is a lot of money for what they actually can win!)

[john ruston]

They were never eligible for Tour Auto.
They do more than B16's and B19's and they are slightly more valuable.

The gap between a good and not so good driver is less in B8.Ideal for you Simon!
Snett at a guess 14's good driver,19's not so good.

[simon drabble]

Ideal for me in so many ways except price!!!!!!!

[James Murray]

Whats a B16 worth? As a participant in the 70 2 litre championship it would be a shame to exclude them as JT says. As continuation models are excluded from this series how many will be eligible , all of the ones in WSM at Spa were continuations - depressing. Simon agreed, B8 at 300k is outrageous if thats what they are, Elva mk8 half that I would think,just as fast, pre 65 and an excellent B8 basher for Autosport 3hrs.

[john ruston]

Cars are worth what people pay for them so no such thing as outrageous.The market sets the price.A Porsche 910 would be close to a million.About same speed as B8.Comparisons are what you want them to be.904 is 800K and so on.
16's 8's and 19's all about the same selling price.
WSM also accepts ally engines in 210's but they have to fill grids.
James ,understand what you are saying but the organisers have to work in the black and as there are to many organisers with the limited number of entrants to sell their ideas to.Its CER with full grids at present but trying to introduce unworkable rules will harm them and I can only hope that HSCC absorb the entrants that will not now do CER and the HSCC series succeeds

[James Murray]

Understand that organisers have to cover costs or make profit in some cases, thats why I said any ally engined non wing car should have to run in wing class as most running non wing cars are using that engine. Not many will want to fund a down grade and go slower. Pragmatic approach required and understood, idealist view wishful thinking!

I'm with SD on the B8 issue and think will stay with the silly cars without doors, but with same runiing gear, built by the same people in the same factory on the same production line, driven by the same drivers, just a bit less aluminium and fibreglass, but 5th of cost fortunately..

[john ruston]

But you have no room for a passenger!
I'm with you on that one.

[andy97]

Mallock?

Frank Sytner raced an FVC engined Mk 17 for a while

[SAMD]

LOL MK17 and FVC, cat and pigeons methinks

[phoenix]

Originally Posted by morninggents

How many variations of an FVC are there? hopefully they are clear on what is allowed (ie steel 1850 block).

The original FVC was iron block with 85.6 bore (same as DFV and FVA) and 77.62 stroke (same as original BDA) giving 1787cc.[/QUOTE]

Are you sure about that?

According to my information/research:

FVA initially was 80.96mm bore and 77.62mm stroke 1598.3cc - same bore as SCA
FVC initially was 83.50mm bore and 82.00mm stroke 1796.1cc - same bore as SCC

Later versions of each engine may have had the 3.373" 85.6742mm bore (same as the original DFV), giving the FVA 1789.9cc and the FVC 1890.9cc

Nothing to stop you having a 90mm+ bore these days and an alloy block, but that's not period for sure

http://www.davidgathercole.co.uk/engines.html

My research could be wrong, of course, so if you could point me in the direction of some definitive information I would be pleased to add it to my records.