The interestingly pedantic DIESEL thread

[bil588]

Originally Posted by GTfour

Any which way you turn it,the more dieselpowered racecars in the field,the less spectators there'll be.
Spectators simply don't come to see "the spectacle" of superefficient and ultraquit barges gliding by.
And again,I'd like to see what would hapen if the tech rules would be equaled for the diesel and petrol cars. So that 'd meen 5,5L petrol turbo engines.

I agree. Why don't the regs allow 5.5 liter turbo'd petrol engines?

I do think people want something that sounds unique, angry, and/or glorious. The R10 didn't sound like that at all when I went to the Portland ALMS race in 2006.

Wasn't the Panoz LMP-1 Roadster S a crowd favorite?

http://www.mulsannescorner.com/panozlmp1.html

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by SebringMG

The point of the P1 category is innovation - the diesels fill that !! Are you gonna be complaining about every new piece of hardware that tyurns up including hybrids ?

To make a racing diesel engine is a hellishly impressive piece of engineering which anybody should be able to appreciate whether you like them or not!!

Besides variety is the spice of life would rather see variety (even diesels) than a field full of prototypes all running Judd engines!!!

I agree entirely. But I just can't deal with the lack of noise. Its stupid - naive even, but I can't help it. A racing car should sound like a racing car. The R10 and the Pug just don't - IMO. Doesn't mean I don't appreciate them though (although I've been bored to the back teeth with Audi for quite a while, but then, you all know that....... ).

[SebringMG]

Originally Posted by Aysedasi

I agree entirely. But I just can't deal with the lack of noise. Its stupid - naive even, but I can't help it. A racing car should sound like a racing car. The R10 and the Pug just don't - IMO. Doesn't mean I don't appreciate them though (although I've been bored to the back teeth with Audi for quite a while, but then, you all know that....... ).

Oh i agree the lack of noise is a problem that i truly dislike!! They make interesting turbine like whoosshing noises but perhaps they ought to be forced to run w/o the silencers

[Aysedasi]

Or with audio output of nice rorty wavs/mp3s..........

[Graham Goodwin]

Originally Posted by minimangler

Tell me it doesn't create an interesting championship.
See Super GT, FIA GT, WTCC, BTCC etc for proven results.

OK - it doesn't create an interesting championship

If you are honestly claiming that performance balancing is making FIA GT and BTCC 'interesting' then really you need to look a bit more deeply than the fact that a different car wins once in a while.

The reality is that the best cars are all too soon rendered incapable of competing for the win. Until that is they have served their time in the midfield and then they're back again.

How on earth does that encourage anyone to try their hardest?

There is a world of difference between the principle of performance balancing on one side and the current situation in LMP on the other.

[GTfour]

Originally Posted by SebringMG

The point of the P1 category is innovation - the diesels fill that !! Are you gonna be complaining about every new piece of hardware that tyurns up including hybrids ?

To make a racing diesel engine is a hellishly impressive piece of engineering which anybody should be able to appreciate whether you like them or not!!

Besides variety is the spice of life would rather see variety (even diesels) than a field full of prototypes all running Judd engines!!!

As long as these "hellishly impressive peaces of engineering" need special rules that favour them and some kind of funny destilate of real diesel to win,I am not at all impressed.

[WouterM]

Originally Posted by GTfour

As long as these "hellishly impressive peaces of engineering" need special rules that favour them and some kind of funny destilate of real diesel to win,I am not at all impressed.

You can buy Shell V-Power at every gas station.

[Aysedasi]

Is it exactly the same?

(I'm not doubting you, I'd just like to know).

[WouterM]

Originally Posted by Aysedasi

Is it exactly the same?

(I'm not doubting you, I'd just like to know).

No it's not. It uses a little more of the GTL that makes V-Power, V-Power.

[HORNDAWG]

Originally Posted by SebringMG

Oh i agree the lack of noise is a problem that i truly dislike!! They make interesting turbine like whoosshing noises but perhaps they ought to be forced to run w/o the silencers

The reason they are so quiet is not silencers per se but the particulate filters that makes them relatively smoke free. During the filtration process the sound waves are also baffled.

L.P.

[WouterM]

I've just looked at the races that Audi raced the R8 as a full works car; they won with 24, 23 and 16 laps over the competition. In 2006 the brand new R10 beat the 5 year old Pesca by 4 laps. The difference was 11 laps last month as Audi was pushed. I believe it still makes a substantial difference if a car is built as a package by a works team with a proper testing budget.

[jhansen]

Originally Posted by WouterM

I believe it still makes a substantial difference if a car is built as a package by a works team with a proper testing budget.

Couldn't agree more. An integrated package is the better choice.

[Nordic]

Originally Posted by GTfour

As long as these "hellishly impressive peaces of engineering" need special rules that favour them and some kind of funny destilate of real diesel to win,I am not at all impressed.

But dispite having larger CC engines, they have less fuel to play with than a petrol engine, yet are still able to go as far, if not futher than a petrol car on each tankful.

It is not as one sided as you make out.

[Nordic]

Originally Posted by Graham Goodwin

OK - it doesn't create an interesting championship

If you are honestly claiming that performance balancing is making FIA GT and BTCC 'interesting' then really you need to look a bit more deeply than the fact that a different car wins once in a while.

The reality is that the best cars are all too soon rendered incapable of competing for the win. Until that is they have served their time in the midfield and then they're back again.

How on earth does that encourage anyone to try their hardest?

There is a world of difference between the principle of performance balancing on one side and the current situation in LMP on the other.

Agree 100%. Adding ballast because you have won a race appeals to the lowest common dominator and should be viewed by the paying public as race fixing.

[paul-collins]

Originally Posted by Nordic

But dispite having larger CC engines, they have less fuel to play with than a petrol engine, yet are still able to go as far, if not futher than a petrol car on each tankful.

By litre, yes, they have less fuel; by energy, they do not. Best I can figure, gasoline has about 44 MJ/kg (approx 32.5 MJ/L), whereas regular diesel would have about 39.3 MJ/L...

Note, these would be pump values.

[Simon S]

Originally Posted by paul-collins

By litre, yes, they have less fuel; by energy, they do not. Best I can figure, gasoline has about 44 MJ/kg (approx 32.5 MJ/L), whereas regular diesel would have about 39.3 MJ/L...

Note, these would be pump values.

exactly (and it's not like the diesel used is pump fuel anyway, they brought their own fuel to Le-Mans... (and I think we can be sure it was not brough from Tesco's or the like!)

This is the basis of Henri Pescarolo's argument... what is the point in people spending the time and money on entries etc, when the Diesels are given this kind of advantage?

I have nothing against the idea of running diesel's, the beef is the lack of level playing field.

[Nordic]

Originally Posted by Simon S

exactly (and it's not like the diesel used is pump fuel anyway, they brought their own fuel to Le-Mans... (and I think we can be sure it was not brough from Tesco's or the like!)

This is the basis of Henri Pescarolo's argument... what is the point in people spending the time and money on entries etc, when the Diesels are given this kind of advantage?

I have nothing against the idea of running diesel's, the beef is the lack of level playing field.

While it may not be as available at the pump, the fuel is supplied as per the ACO rules by Shell. The spec is available on the ACO web page. The same is also true of the petrol supply.

I guess you could put it this way. The energy contained in a litre of Petrol is less than that in Diesel. So there is less Diesel available to the teams in terms of tank size. Is that correct?


This is the basis of Audis argument... what is the point in people spending the time and money on entries and develomets etc, when petrol is given this kind of advantage? would be the heading without some from of stable rule to encourage new inovation.

[Oldtony]

Motor racings justification for it's existence is that "improves the breed". Just like horse racing?????
But seriously Audi and Peugot are developing and demonstrating the technology that may keep us in high performance cars in the future, so don't knock it because it is a bit different. To many people the lack of noise is an advantage.
If you are complaining now about deisel being quiet how will you go when the formula is for electric fuel cell or solar cars????

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by Oldtony

Motor racings justification for it's existence is that "improves the breed". Just like horse racing?????

Not necessarily for all involved. Maybe for the manufacturers as justfication for the millions they spend, but not necessarily so for everyone else - the privateers - and certainly not for the fans......

[WouterM]

Originally Posted by Oldtony

Motor racings justification for it's existence is that "improves the breed". Just like horse racing?????
But seriously Audi and Peugot are developing and demonstrating the technology that may keep us in high performance cars in the future, so don't knock it because it is a bit different. To many people the lack of noise is an advantage.
If you are complaining now about deisel being quiet how will you go when the formula is for electric fuel cell or solar cars????

Yes the particulate filter technology has progressed much faster than before. I believe Audi's filters are now 40 - 60 % smaller than they were in 2006. This technology should become available soon from which all of us will benifit.

[GTfour]

Originally Posted by Oldtony

Motor racings justification for it's existence is that "improves the breed". Just like horse racing?????
But seriously Audi and Peugot are developing and demonstrating the technology that may keep us in high performance cars in the future, so don't knock it because it is a bit different. To many people the lack of noise is an advantage.
If you are complaining now about deisel being quiet how will you go when the formula is for electric fuel cell or solar cars????

Well,I for one wouldn't attend these kind of races simply because they'd be boring to whatch in my opinion.
Let's be honest here,if one could choose between a field of screaming and thundering,firespuwing racers and a field of ultraquiet and pink-flowers-from-the-exhaust-spuwing milkfloats,the choise would be?

(by the way,every year in Australia there's a world solarpowered car race. For those who're interested...somehow I don't think this is such a spectacular event)

[Aysedasi]

I don't think the comparisons there are entirely fair! But I guess there are those who watch motor racing for the immediate adrenalin-fueled rush that comes from watching fast and (appropriately) noisy cars dice it out, whereas there may be others who are just as entitled to get their rocks off admiring the technical excellence and performance of electric fuel cell or solar cars. We're all entitled to like what we want to like....

But for me, no, I fear that I won't want to watch a field of silent solar powered cars at Le Mans and I suspect that the 80,000 travelling Brits each year probably won't want to either (even if they are Jags or Bentleys).

[dj choc ice]

Originally Posted by Aysedasi

I don't think the comparisons there are entirely fair! But I guess there are those who watch motor racing for the immediate adrenalin-fueled rush that comes from watching fast and (appropriately) noisy cars dice it out, whereas there may be others who are just as entitled to get their rocks off admiring the technical excellence and performance of electric fuel cell or solar cars. We're all entitled to like what we want to like....

But for me, no, I fear that I won't want to watch a field of silent solar powered cars at Le Mans and I suspect that the 80,000 travelling Brits each year probably won't want to either (even if they are Jags or Bentleys).

too true, at lemans the diesel car's sounded awful, far too quiet and civilised, the zytek on the other hand......screaming V8 and machine gun backfire, everytime it went past in the first hour of the race i would cheer, a true race car it is.

we are in an age were technology is advancing at a rather ferocious rate and in the eyes of some dim minded individuals in power or in a position with power of some sort (greenpeace, or atleast certain members of it spring to mind instantly) denounce anything loud or exciting, citing that it will burn the planet to a crisp and we will all drown through global warming, i never knew the sound of a judd V10 could melt ice caps or burn the planet to a crisp, well im not sure about the last bit for the zytek though

[JAG]

Well I didn't see Lime Rock, but those unbeatable diesels were off the podium again.

Can you imagine what a massacre it would be if the diesels were restricted as much as some in Europe would wish!

I'm increasingly convinced there are some major shortcomings somewhere along the line with the petrol P1's!

Who's not upto the job, the chassis constructors?

Well the Lola and Courage LC75 based Acuras seem to prove otherwise.

Engines, possibly, the AER hasn't had glowing reports, the Judd is proven but getting on, and isn't of the optimum turbo configeration.

Tyres, almost certainly responsible for teams losing between 1-2.5 seconds a lap, depending on brand. You could rely on Michelin, but they now appear to be optimised for the diesels.

[JAG]

Originally Posted by dj choc ice

too true, at lemans the diesel car's sounded awful, far too quiet and civilised, the zytek on the other hand......screaming V8 and machine gun backfire, everytime it went past in the first hour of the race i would cheer, a true race car it is.

we are in an age were technology is advancing at a rather ferocious rate and in the eyes of some dim minded individuals in power or in a position with power of some sort (greenpeace, or atleast certain members of it spring to mind instantly) denounce anything loud or exciting, citing that it will burn the planet to a crisp and we will all drown through global warming, i never knew the sound of a judd V10 could melt ice caps or burn the planet to a crisp, well im not sure about the last bit for the zytek though

If you watched Group C racing you would realise very few cars were screamers, particularly in the later days. Turbo Jaguars, Nissan's, Toyota's, Porsche's etc., all sounded similar to an R8 or AER.

Only the Mazda's, Spice's and older V12 Jaguar's had any scream about them, while you had a rumble with the Sauber Mercedes.

Sportscar racing's about variety, I couldn't think of anything worse than a field of 30 prototypes all sounding like an F1 car.