Sam Bird deserves his F1 break

[bella]

he has had some very good and valid excuses, in his defence. and in calado's defence too it is a very fickle formula but purely from an outsiders perspective i'd agree that art aren't what they used to be. they had a lot of very good drivers paying decent money and still don't need to take on charity cases, but arguably they started to wobble when they took on gp3.

the random nature of gp2 makes it all the more superb when someone actually manages to consistently string good results together like nasr and leimer do. i think perhaps it's a year too soon for calado to be looking at f1 next year while he's still finding trouble at the rate he does in gp2. you really want someone with his kind of pace but with leimer and nasr's consistency.

or you know. just sign leimer or nasr instead anyway. or bird for that matter.

[OZ_HCR32]

Originally Posted by ace007

Why is he Reserve driver at Mercedes F1 then?

Thats my point. And how many years has he been doing that?

He seems to be pigeon holed as a tester and you have to think after so many years of looking at him they have given him a thumbs up to retain him for testing but not a drive.

Lots of drivers test for teams and for whatever reason be it money, talent and money they get picked up by other teams or promoted after testing and doing Friday runs for teams.

If he was the goods and Merc wanted to develop him than why not push him to FI vs the return of Sutil...or as the FI test driver....or get him a test at Williams, they have Merc power next year and looking for a new talent to develop.

He is in no mans land and after all that testing I think the situation he finds himself in is that he is a good steerer. Well spoken and good communicator and probably a good worth ethic and technical understanding....so may as well retain him. If he was that little bit more special then....

[ace007]

Originally Posted by OZ_HCR32

Thats my point. And how many years has he been doing that?

He seems to be pigeon holed as a tester and you have to think after so many years of looking at him they have given him a thumbs up to retain him for testing but not a drive.

Lots of drivers test for teams and for whatever reason be it money, talent and money they get picked up by other teams or promoted after testing and doing Friday runs for teams.

If he was the goods and Merc wanted to develop him than why not push him to FI vs the return of Sutil...or as the FI test driver....or get him a test at Williams, they have Merc power next year and looking for a new talent to develop.

He is in no mans land and after all that testing I think the situation he finds himself in is that he is a good steerer. Well spoken and good communicator and probably a good worth ethic and technical understanding....so may as well retain him. If he was that little bit more special then....

You are wrong. When you are 3rd driver to Schumacher, Rosber and Hamilton, there is no way they would let you drive directly for them. They are supporting him more than they advertise but Merc is a world brand and doesnt need a newcomer in their title defense. They focus on world champion names. And so it should be.

The way Merc works is to subside the F1 drive (for any Merc powered team) like they did with di Resta but without Mclaren and cousin Franchiti, di Resta would have not have been handed the Force India drive.

If in doubt, ask Brawn what is the contribution that Sam had in their car development in the last three years. You will be surprised. And trust me, they would not hire him for what he does if they were not impressed with his delivery. This is F1. It is tough, hard fought for and no feelings involved. They want the very best. And so it should be.

[OZ_HCR32]

...and yet he is nowhere near an F1 race seat

[chico]

I don't think you can say "nowhere near an F1 seat". He is the Reserve for Mercedes, he has a Supelicence and has had a seat fitted for the car. If Nico or Lewis had a stomach bug and were unable to race, Bird would step in. That's testament to how good Merc think he is! Reminder: he doesn't bring money, he gets paid! How many drivers nowadays can say that?

As ace007 says, the big teams don't start rookies so he has to look at the mid to lower tier, which require funding. But there's no doubt in my mind that if he does manage to find a little funding, he should be right at the top of the list

[Bononi]

Originally Posted by chico

Reminder: he doesn't bring money, he gets paid! How many drivers nowadays can say that?

Uhn... at the end of the day, that's not a good thing. Most of the drivers bring some kind of sponsors, re Alonso/Santander et al... unfortunately drivers nowaday must be attractive to the market at some level.

[Paradise City]

Yes, he could get a few race opps. But without a glitzy sponsor, he's not a long term prospect unless he blitzes the field if one of the two drivers does get the flu. I'm kind of reminded of Markus Winkelhock who lead his first race but never lined up on the grid again.

[OZ_HCR32]

I hear what you are all saying...but being a ring in at Mercedes does him no favours.

Just to clarify for my understanding, arent Anthony Davidson, Sam Bird and Brendan Hartley all test drivers for Mercedes. I understand they all do simulator work. I think Hartley was doing demonstration drives though see he is now racing in the US. So Bird is the official reserve driver?

I did recall they were going to also run Hartley at the Silverstone test before being excluded

[ace007]

Originally Posted by OZ_HCR32

I hear what you are all saying...but being a ring in at Mercedes does him no favours.

Just to clarify for my understanding, arent Anthony Davidson, Sam Bird and Brendan Hartley all test drivers for Mercedes. I understand they all do simulator work. I think Hartley was doing demonstration drives though see he is now racing in the US. So Bird is the official reserve driver?

I did recall they were going to also run Hartley at the Silverstone test before being excluded

Bird has been the reserve driver for the 3rd year in a row and did all the relevant testing with the car since Abu Dhabi 2010. Davidson is also used in simu for his obvious experience. Hartley is also part of the program but no reserve as such. They gave him track time to make his feedback relevant for the simu work.

PS: and Bird might be much closer than mentioned to his first F1 drive

[BSchneiderFan]

Originally Posted by ace007

PS: and Bird might be much closer than mentioned to his first F1 drive

Specifically?

[spider]

I really can't see Sam ever breaking into F1. I just don't think he's special enough tbh.

He's clearly done a lot better than many thought he'd manage after throwing away the F.BMW champs to Dean Smith. He's just not got an X Factor about him, or a financial package big enough to buy his way in.

Is he better than Max Chilton? Undoubtedly.

Van Der Garde? Pic? I'd say so.

He's a very solid/good front-running GP2 driver, and he should be happy with that. But I've never really heard any team whisper about his greatness in the way teams have about others coming through the ranks.

[AS1924]

I have enjoyed reading this post quite a lot. The pros and cons of Sam Bird graduating to the final reward!!

What you guys seem to overlook is the difference between a driver being developed by an existing F1 team (ie Hamilton, Vettel, Grosjean even, Bianchi or tomorrow Magnussen...) and an independent one like Sam fighting his way through the field amongst the whole pack of UK drivers and interntional drivers and being picked up by an F1 team in his first GP2 year simply because of his talent. Who has that story please??!

No doubt Vettel and Hamilton are the Prost and Senna of their generation but they had a whole system offered to develop their talent. When RB or Mclaren signs a contract with Carlin, Fortec or Arden-Caterham, there is a different pressure if it is paid by an F1 team rather than a dad and/or a couple of guys who have decided to jump on board to give a talent the chance.

For me, it is a huge difference and can only underline the real talent Sam has. He is not only still standing as an independent, he is a paid driver at Merc F1 for a reserve seat and developing the racing car of Rosberg and Hamilton and now fighting for the GP2 title! What else must the kid do?

[Beryl]

Originally Posted by AS1924

What you guys seem to overlook is the difference between a driver being developed by an existing F1 team (ie Hamilton, Vettel, Grosjean even, Bianchi or tomorrow Magnussen...) and an independent one like Sam fighting his way through the field amongst the whole pack of UK drivers and interntional drivers and being picked up by an F1 team in his first GP2 year simply because of his talent. Who has that story please??!

1st year in GP2?

Originally Posted by AS1924

What else must the kid do?

Win a championship? Any championship? He's been racing in lower formula since 2004...

[ace007]

Originally Posted by Beryl

1st year in GP2?
Win a championship? Any championship? He's been racing in lower formula since 2004...

If really depends who you are fighting against too. Red Bull juniors were always around. Ferrari's juniors too. Renault juniors, Mercedes juniors too... (Bottas being managed by Toto wolf himself by the way who was - and still is - the provider of the f3 engines...).

Bird has always been in the top 5 since his debuts, no matter which series you take. Against the very best.

[Beryl]

Originally Posted by ace007

If really depends who you are fighting against too. Red Bull juniors were always around. Ferrari's juniors too. Renault juniors, Mercedes juniors too... (Bottas being managed by Toto wolf himself by the way who was - and still is - the provider of the f3 engines...).

Bird has always been in the top 5 since his debuts, no matter which series you take. Against the very best.

Let's take a look at his results since he started F3.

2007 British F3 - Bird finishes 4th in the championship (2 wins) as a rookie in F3 cars, behind teammate Maro Engel and rivals Marko Asmer and Stephen Jelley. In retrospect a very weak field.

2008 Euro F3 - Bird finishes 11th in the championship (0 wins), well behind Manor teammate Tsukakoshi.

2009 Euro F3 - Bird finishes 8th in the championship (0 wins), well behind teammate Christian Vietoris and behind teammate journeyman (and rookie in F3) Alexander Sims.

2010 GP2 - Bird finishes 5th in the championship as a rookie (1 win), behind ART teammate and fellow rookie Jules Bianchi.

2011 GP2 - Bird finishes 6th in the championship (0 wins), ahead of isport teammate Marcus Ericsson.

2012 WSR (FR3.5) - Bird finishes 3rd in the championship (2 wins), ahead of ISR teammate Jake Rosenzweig (who isn't very good at all).

It's not a terrible record, but it obviously doesn't stand out. After nearly a full decade in single seaters, he is finally getting some good results (last year and this year), but by now he has a huge experience (and age) advantage over the majority of his rivals. Guys like Pic and Vergne got into F1 perhaps not as polished as Bird is now, but they had/have far more room to grow as drivers. You can say the same for drivers like Nasr, Magnussen and Vandoorne, and in the future Fuoco and Marciello.

[ace007]

Originally Posted by Beryl

Let's take a look at his results since he started F3.

2007 British F3 - Bird finishes 4th in the championship (2 wins) as a rookie in F3 cars, behind teammate Maro Engel and rivals Marko Asmer and Stephen Jelley. In retrospect a very weak field.

2008 Euro F3 - Bird finishes 11th in the championship (0 wins), well behind Manor teammate Tsukakoshi.

2009 Euro F3 - Bird finishes 8th in the championship (0 wins), well behind teammate Christian Vietoris and behind teammate journeyman (and rookie in F3) Alexander Sims.

2010 GP2 - Bird finishes 5th in the championship as a rookie (1 win), behind ART teammate and fellow rookie Jules Bianchi.

2011 GP2 - Bird finishes 6th in the championship (0 wins), ahead of isport teammate Marcus Ericsson.

2012 WSR (FR3.5) - Bird finishes 3rd in the championship (2 wins), ahead of ISR teammate Jake Rosenzweig (who isn't very good at all).

It's not a terrible record, but it obviously doesn't stand out. After nearly a full decade in single seaters, he is finally getting some good results (last year and this year), but by now he has a huge experience (and age) advantage over the majority of his rivals. Guys like Pic and Vergne got into F1 perhaps not as polished as Bird is now, but they had/have far more room to grow as drivers. You can say the same for drivers like Nasr, Magnussen and Vandoorne, and in the future Fuoco and Marciello.

I give you 2008 as a real difficult year, struggling with the transition between Avon and Kumo tyres which could not be more different.

But first you should start in 2006 as a dominant F. BMW driver who got taken out by Turvey when about to win his first championship. Finished vice-champion!

And 2007, he literally stared in his first F3 year, playing catch-up to Asmer in 2nd place all year which lead to his first paid test driver role at Williams F1 beofre a few unfortunate mechanical DNFs at Carlin. Go into the details pls.

Now, in 2009 he was 4th before the last round (ahead of all his teammates - Sims nicely driving even into him in Norisring like an amateur...). The last round (2 races) which he didn't compete in, as GP2 testing was clashing with the finale...

2010 being his most amazing year with 7 mechanical DNFs (to 0 for Bianchi ran by his manager's team ART...). It lead to him being hired by Merc F1, which tells you the full story actually. If Perez didn't' "miss his breaking point" in the chicane in Abu dhabi, he would have finished 3rd, adead of Jules...

I am not saying Bird is of Vettel's caliber but he did grow into a very fast and intelligent rounded driver that F1 could use on the grid. And because I happen to know him personally (like I know a few of them up to Webber's generation), I can tell you he has, besides talent, a drive and a hunger (as well as perseverance) that only a very few have these days. It comes across on track and also when you meet him in person.

[Beryl]

Originally Posted by ace007

Now, in 2009 he was 4th before the last round (ahead of all his teamates - Sims nicely driving even into hi in Norisring like an amateur...). The last round (2 races) which he didnt compete in, as GP2 testing was clashing with the finale...

That is blatantly not true. Bird was 5th before the last round, but still behind Sims who had 51 points at that point (compare to 40 for Bird) and still way behind Vietoris who also missed the last round. I can't comment on the circumstances as I didn't watch or even really follow Euro F3 at that point, but try not to provide false information, it doesn't help your credibility on the matter.

[ace007]

Originally Posted by Beryl

That is blatantly not true. Bird was 5th before the last round, but still behind Sims who had 51 points at that point (compare to 40 for Bird) and still way behind Vietoris who also missed the last round. I can't comment on the circumstances as I didn't watch or even really follow Euro F3 at that point, but try not to provide false information, it doesn't help your credibility on the matter.

I will check the exact point table at the time for argument's sake but I dont need help to make my point. Maybe he was 4th with two rounds to go... As you said, perhaps you should have watched Euro F3 more closely to appreciate where I am coming from.

[ace007]

Pls check his Macau record as well for a final idea on his overall F3 performances and results...

[peebee2]

He has the record of a big money driver frustrated that he can't buy his way to success, though this is his best year so far, albeit in a very weak GP2 field

[miniman]

I cant comment on statistics but I do know that in his rookie year in GP2, racing against Maldonado, Perez,Bianchi etc Bird was voted the number one driver by Autosport presumably because of what you say here about mechanical dnfs. Without those, he could have come much higher



QUOTE=ace007;3305936]I give you 2008 as a real difficult year, struggling with the transition between Avon and Kumo tyres which could not be more different.

But first you should start in 2006 as a dominant F. BMW driver who got taken out by Turvey when about to win his first championship. Finished vice-champion!

And 2007, he literally stared in his first F3 year, playing catch-up to Asmer in 2nd place all year which lead to his first paid test driver role at Williams F1 beofre a few unfortunate mechanical DNFs at Carlin. Go into the details pls.

Now, in 2009 he was 4th before the last round (ahead of all his teammates - Sims nicely driving even into him in Norisring like an amateur...). The last round (2 races) which he didn't compete in, as GP2 testing was clashing with the finale...

2010 being his most amazing year with 7 mechanical DNFs (to 0 for Bianchi ran by his manager's team ART...). It lead to him being hired by Merc F1, which tells you the full story actually. If Perez didn't' "miss his breaking point" in the chicane in Abu dhabi, he would have finished 3rd, adead of Jules...

I am not saying Bird is of Vettel's caliber but he did grow into a very fast and intelligent rounded driver that F1 could use on the grid. And because I happen to know him personally (like I know a few of them up to Webber's generation), I can tell you he has, besides talent, a drive and a hunger (as well as perseverance) that only a very few have these days. It comes across on track and also when you meet him in person.[/QUOTE]

[FAS33]

he's lucky to even be in GP2 after looking at his past results...

[ace007]

Originally Posted by FAS33

he's lucky to even be in GP2 after looking at his past results...

What kind of comment is that??

You don't have to like the guy but please do reflect on what you write as most comments so far have triggered interesting debates. This is just offensive at this stage. And not to me particularly but to all the guys who take time to answer and/or read about the thread.

[bella]

ah, no, you have to remember that everyone's entitled to have an opinion, and everyone is entitled to be offended by someone's opinion.

the important bit is that we all have to consider each others opinion, and decide for ourselves whether we judge it to be valid or not.

the interesting thing about this is that aside from the specifics, it's pretty much a discussion you could have about very many of the guys who toil away in the simulators under the radar and get on with racing whatever car they can get their hands on in the meantime. it boils down to exactly the same thing, that it's incredibly difficult to judge someone without knowing the full facts from every single driver on the grid that a guy has ever raced on, and in turn, know exactly what they've done with their circumstances and how that measures up with everyone else in the field. and even then we're all victims of natural bias.

[Biscuits In A Red Bull]

Originally Posted by ace007

I can tell you he has, besides talent, a drive and a hunger (as well as perseverance) that only a very few have these days.

Are you joking?

Also, I reckon Felipe Nasr would make it further as an F1 driver, not only because he has more raw pace, but because he is (normally) consistent and has far more years ahead. How he doesn't have a GP2 win yet is beyond me, although his season is starting to fall apart now. He, like Bird, is an independent and from what I've seen has far more potential. If anyone can remember his British F3 title campaign, after a good rookie season, the way he destroyed the likes of Kevin Magnussen, Antonio Felix da Costa, Will Buller and, when they raced together, Mitch Evans is a lot more than Bird's record in that formula!