The "development" of Historic Racing Cars discussion Post Spa 6Hrs 2013.

[Mike Bell]

Originally Posted by simon drabble

My Mk2 (when its finally finished!) will not be troubling the sort of Itailian exotica others on this forum will be piloting - merely acting as a very stylish mobile chicane

Simon, the 3:42 was a typo! I blame it on IOS7. Apologies! I think we will be joining you in the mobile chicane business next year....

[GORDON STREETER]

Originally Posted by Tim Falce

What sort of music? I've got a few tapes and also a couple of players.

I'll dig them out and list them and send you a PM.
At least there wont be any rap "read" CRAP) music as it wasn't about
I actually had an Akai 8 track recorder that I chucked away about 10 years ago.

[zefarelly]

Maybe there's an antidote to the pace of the 6 hour . . . get a load of entries in with mobile chicanes

all cars to have heaters, cigar lighters, and record players

not just Simons

[rogerwills]

Originally Posted by simon drabble

I was told the latest all singing all dancing E Type engine from JD Classics is £125k eclipsing C and G's £100k engines! However if they are now quicker than Cobra's I suppose its relative value....
It doesnt make much sense to me and makes modern GT start to look good value!!

Yes and are they not the official Jaguar Heritage people??

Makes you wonder what they are doing to the real heritage of Jaguar.

Or are they one and the same???

[john ruston]

That brown C Type of the Essex gang really got to the Germans at Oldtimers.

Not much Heritage but may be the bean counters in India are looking at results not the historical significance of old banger racing.

What a waste of dosh

[Robert Farrell]

Following Simons Quote. I was prompted to look at the JD Classic Website.
For sale is their racing E Type. They are quoting 420 BHP on Webers.
Andrew Whyte and Peter Wilson in their books document the fact that the most Jaguar ever achieved was 344 BHP on the one engine. RA1347-9-3 which was fitted to the Lindner car. The majority of Jaguar racing engines listed,in period, struggled to reach 300 BHP. On carburettors.
40% performance increase represents a remarkable engineering achievement.
I wonder how this compares with the output improvements of other engines? Particularly the Ford V8s over the same 50 year period.

[FastDB2s]

Originally Posted by Robert Farrell

Following Simons Quote. I was prompted to look at the JD Classic Website.
For sale is their racing E Type. They are quoting 420 BHP on Webers.
Andrew Whyte and Peter Wilson in their books document the fact that the most Jaguar ever achieved was 344 BHP on the one engine. RA1347-9-3 which was fitted to the Lindner car. The majority of Jaguar racing engines listed,in period, struggled to reach 300 BHP. On carburettors.
40% performance increase represents a remarkable engineering achievement.
I wonder how this compares with the output improvements of other engines? Particularly the Ford V8s over the same 50 year period.

Extremely good figure, 100hp per ltr if a 4.2, 110 if a 3.8 ltr, twin cam ford territory,
I wonder whether that's 420 Shetland horses, equivalent to .9 of a real horse, then it could be BSP, Bulls 'S' whatever Power.

[VIVA GT]

Originally Posted by Robert Farrell

Following Simons Quote. I was prompted to look at the JD Classic Website.
For sale is their racing E Type. They are quoting 420 BHP on Webers.
Andrew Whyte and Peter Wilson in their books document the fact that the most Jaguar ever achieved was 344 BHP on the one engine. RA1347-9-3 which was fitted to the Lindner car. The majority of Jaguar racing engines listed,in period, struggled to reach 300 BHP. On carburettors.
40% performance increase represents a remarkable engineering achievement.
I wonder how this compares with the output improvements of other engines? Particularly the Ford V8s over the same 50 year period.

As has already been said, the use of modern materials can enable engines to run at higher RPM.
A quick & simple calculation showns that if the maximum power of 344 BHP was at 6000 RPM, this means (in round figures 300 lb/ft at that speed). The same torque at 7300 RPM (in round figures) would give the 420 BHP quoted.
So, a few extra RPM, and improved breathing due to cam profiles etc. over 50years soon explains how this increase could be possible.
(Please note that I know nothing about the XK engine power delivery, so I could have the engine speeds totally wrong, but the principle remains...)

[GORDON STREETER]

Originally Posted by FastDB2s

Extremely good figure, 100hp per ltr if a 4.2, 110 if a 3.8 ltr, twin cam ford territory, .

The Ford Kent pushrod was the first to claim 100 bhp for an "actual" 1 litre engine.

[zefarelly]

The bigger the engine the less efficient, I've not managed 100 BHP per litre from 1500 or bigger wet sump normal engines, but 1300 and under its possible.

its only a calc of revs and torque as Viva GT says . . . . most iron pushrod motors will not produce more than 80/lb/ft per litre.

[p261brm]

Originally Posted by grantp

Would an 8-track tape unit for entertainment be allowed under the regs?

Actually I can't recall when 8 track became available - probably never in a Mk2.

I suppose you would need to leave sound proofing in place to be able to enjoy the output. So plenty of scope for lightening everything else ...

the exact date no, but very possible in 240 or 340....

As I understand the rules for HTP's date or dates the subject car competed in International events, my question, first competed or last competed. Recently a certain Mr Owens and I were discussing vented disc's, and when they were first used on Chevrons, and he maintained that a car went to South Africa in 71, most certainly not on the Red Rose cars, or during 71 & 72, I do not think they were fitted before the B23. and the same can be argued for the E types, as posted before, Quick's WOO11, most certainly fitted with CR calipers for 1967 British GP sports car event, a full International event, and accepted as a Group 4 car. as was Warren Pearce's car.
Now to BHP figures, end in 1968 Quicks 3-8 bored out to maxinum plus 030" on standard factory supplied Britec tin plated pistons, an extra 001" clearance, following long discussions at Browns Lane, 0n 45 DCO 3 carbs and manifold from Peter's Sargent and Lumsdens lightweight, Duckhams 20-50, 5 star fuel at 6,500 produced 299 Bhp, Jack (Cramp) suggested swapping the plugs from N62R to N3 and 304 Bhp resulted on the brake at Rye. Micheal Cotton maintained that was the most seen at that time on Webber's and wet sump. Quick was very rarely beaten in 1969 Mod sports events. The Dinsdale 7/16 lift profile cams are as I undrstand still available from Newmans, sink plug Mahle pistons were not a success, as Warren could testify, he had no end of trouble. The original Klat engine was with Gary Pearson.

[john ruston]

So the 8000 revs supposedly seen on Jag engines is only arrived at using Indian Heritage?

[p261brm]

Originally Posted by john ruston

So the 8000 revs supposedly seen on Jag engines is only arrived at using Indian Heritage?

In period a harmonic viabration on the 3-8 litre used to cause crank/block failure at around 7000+ rpm, today technical advances in damper design have I understand cured this problem plus who is to say the engine with newly designed blocks, bore stroke modified etc etc are not capable of higher revs combined with higher power outputs, but then if you go down this route it is hardly historic racing, but then surely that is the presise point of this thread? Incidently the 2-4 engine was over square and extended to 2-8 with the introduction of the XJ6 with modifacation to bore stroke to produce 3lire could achieve almost the same output as the 3-8, I beleive Wilky at Ecurie Ecosse also tried this when the regs reduced capacity to 3litre. these engines would rev to 8K. Simon Klat's work along with John and Brian Playford makes interesting reading, from the pen of Paul Skilliter and Philip Porter.

[simon drabble]

p261brm great colour and fascinating to read such informed posts, keep it coming!

[john ruston]

These engines and others that are in no way representative of history totally bugger up Historic Racing.

Development is a dirty word.


Pity!

[FastDB2s]

Ken ? Richardson or RRA fame built some mega engines in the mid to late 50s, early 60s using a combination of Jaguar parts giving 3 ltr or 3.2ltr with far more power than full blown 3.8 ltr race engines.
He fitted one to the RRA Special (Aston DB3 GP car based), I think he didnt like the fact that John Wyer sold him an Aston engine with a reputed 230bhp but on RRAs dyno it was only giving 180 bhp, as tense conversation took place between Richardson & Wyer resulting in the engine being sent back in the crate it came in.
He had 2 goes at the engine over a 5 ? year period, its owner & Neville Hay had a demonstration of just how quick the RRA Special was after an E Type owner drove past on the motorway and gave a one fingered salute.

[FastDB2s]

It was on the way back from some race meeting, the E Type was absolutely flat out at 145 or so, the RRA just flew past 20 or 30mph faster.

[simon drabble]

this thread is developing into a great read - love the anecdotal stories of old... please keep them coming

[FastDB2s]

Four Ashes looked after the car for several years but had reliability problems with the Aston stuff matched to the output of the RR built Jag motor.
Although I knew they looked after it (I started here as an apprentice in 1974) I never got to ask Jack Moss, my old boss, about the car before he died.
I have asked the then owner about it since, he was a customer until recently.
When the Historic 'Circus' was the support race for the British GP at Silverstone in the early 70s, the RRA Special led the race until the twin plate gave up -- again.
I dont know much about twin plates of the period (the owner was fairly sure that it was a twin plate) but he had problems with it and AP had several goes at strengthening it. Personally I think it may have gearbox issues aswell, the DB box is at it limit at 250+ brake.
Anyway a fairly despondent owner then sold the car to Jeremy Broad, it eventually ended up with a replica DB3S body (it had a similar body as the RRA, just the nose looked different) & twin plug DB3S engine, all fitted by Ricky Bell.
Now resides in the States - doubt if it goes aswell as when it was Jag engined, certainly not as reliable if the AM engine was built in the 70s.

[simon drabble]

so it morphed from a Jaguar engined special into a facsimile Aston which it was loosely based on originally - quite ironic!

[FastDB2s]

No, it was DP155, a single seat AM DB3S sent out to NZ (for the Tasman series) with a 3ltr engine in 1955, it was going to have a 2.5ltr engine.
It was very old fashioned looking & the driver sat on top of the prop, too high.

It was sold to Geoff Richardson with a new AM engine and I suppose a DB3S body, car was registered UUY 504, the AM engine was dyno tested & sent back to Feltham, the nose was then altered to look Jaguar-ish.
A Jaguar engine was fitted in the 50s, the car eventually sold on, then bought back by Richardson who rebuilt the engine with even more power, it was then sold to our man who campaigned it for some years in hillclimbs, sprints & occasional races.
In the support for the British GP our man hadnt got the correct licence so someone else drove it & led the race until just before the finish.
It was then sold on to Broad who sold it to Ricky Bell, who sorted out the DB3S body to its correct spec by 1973.
Love to see the a programme for the British GP inc support, possibly 1971.

More on another forum, a facsimile of the Single Seater surfaced 5 or 6 years ago purpoting to be DB155 but has since been found out, we were involved in discrediting this, the original car is still in the States.
So its an original DB3S with a very interesting history.

[p261brm]

Originally Posted by simon drabble

p261brm great colour and fascinating to read such informed posts, keep it coming!

Not so sure about the informed, most certainly personal involment, I am just sorry WOO11 is not the car it was, or as I first saw it in Basle after it's return from the US of A, where I have to admit it had been very well preserved in the hands of Mr Connerly of Texas. Herr Traber, the current owner, had the car 'restored' if that is the word slightly erroneous I feel to compete in the E-type challenge, on ly to discover the car did not perform as well as other's around him, and not as well as it had at the first Le Mans classic with it's incorrect 4-2 litre engine, where the owner was informed the papers for the car were incorrect, so he had to start again. No slur is given or intended to Mr Pearson who did the work he produced the car to suit the hotspotch of regulations that is the E-type challenge, apart from the engine being incorrect, the rest was a preserved period example, and raced in the US of A for many years, the car returned to Europe and it's provenance destroyed for ever, no questions asked, and when one see's the 'creations' at Goodwood, one is bound to ask the question why? Though I do have the on board film from the Classic Sarthe outing, photo's in period etc. the midnight oil both at Vestry Mews Camberwell and 65 North st. Clapham, Running in trips? through the highways and byways of Kent with borrowed trade plates, in full race trim, stopped on numerous occasions by the constabulary, only to look under the bonnet, But today it is Historic Racing, just not sure about the Historic bit.

[simon drabble]

the comment JR made earlier about it becoming an arms race is an interesting one - it seems we have a sudden leap in technology in one particular car and then it becomes the car to have until rules are tightened and the car then starts to lose its shine.

Certainly going back a few years Cobra's where everywhere and few had E Types. That seems to be switching for all the reasons that have been discussed here.... but presumably this must have been true in period as well? The arrival of yank tanks certainly killed Jaguar Mk2's in saloon racing.

So whilst I am not queuing up to embrace this as I will be first in line to be priced out it does seem that history is to a certain degree repeating itself. Be interesting to hear more from the "period" posters as to whether this was the case...

[Al Weyman]

So you fit a different type of crankshaft balancer to iron out the vibration problems over 7000 rpm enabling the engine to rev much higher thus producing a lot more ower, well that's not an original part so how on earth can it be FIA nonsense legal????? So easy to check as well and with out removing a single not or bolt, no excuse for letting this type of component in. The whole thing is just one big dishonest joke and I am glad I am not a part of it or ever will be, I prefer to compete in a more honest series that allows some latitude.

[midgetman]

"It's not about power, it's about reliability and cost. By fitting these parts we are making the engines more reliable and keeping the cost down by not needing 25k engine rebuilds twice a year. nothing to do with power, oh no, no, no............simply making the sport more affordable, and who wants to watch a race where the cars keep breaking down?"

I seem to have read that somewhere here in the past!