A rant on to closed to club race meetings

[Moosehead]

Originally Posted by historic racer

The one that didn't was the Classic Sports Car Club, that was a firm NON, even to do one race they wanted the full £140 on top , clearly not viable.

I'm a member of the CSCC and have raced with them since 2007, always found them very accomodating towards potential entries.However, I have nothing to do with the running of the club so I have no official 'word' on the matter.

Having said that -

The published regs for the Future Classics (as with most if not all CSCC series) state that entrants do have to be a club member (£39) but they can enter a 'taster' event in the 'Invitation class' and waiver the registration fee.

[Peter Mallett]

Originally Posted by historic racer

I don't quite know what to make of what you have come out with, what I would really like to say would get me banned. So polite answer is you must have more money than sense and or enjoy being taken for a ride. Most people look for value for money which generally is hard earned, mine is, but there is less of it at the moment hence my post.

It's quite simple really. Clubs and organizers need the finance, whether we like it or not. As said above the CSCC and others do allow one off events but to comply with MSA requirements, amongst other things, we have to pay a membership fee. I just don't know why people moan about it. As Tim says, vote with your wallet.

[midgetman]

The point is perhaps that today's world precludes many people following a full championship or series, whether that be for fiscal, work or family reasons. Therefore clubs will have to develop a mechanism for accepting one-off or ad hoc entries or they will not thrive.

Maybe that's a good thing though, how often have we bleated about too many clashes, diluted grids etc?

Regarding the CSCC in particular, I've had a couple of contacts with them as a potential entrant and I have to say that their attitude drove me away. But clearly I'm out of step as it's one of the most successful clubs at the moment.

[Peter Mallett]

Originally Posted by midgetman

The point is perhaps that today's world precludes many people following a full championship or series, whether that be for fiscal, work or family reasons. Therefore clubs will have to develop a mechanism for accepting one-off or ad hoc entries or they will not thrive.

Which as you know is exactly my situation. But I fail to see why clubs should change just because someone who thinks they are important (not you incidentally) wants to race with them. Surely the corrollary is that if the clubs fail then there's nowhere to race? Ergo pay the fees to keep them going.

Originally Posted by midgetman

Maybe that's a good thing though, how often have we bleated about too many clashes, diluted grids etc?

True.

Originally Posted by midgetman

Regarding the CSCC in particular, I've had a couple of contacts with them as a potential entrant and I have to say that their attitude drove me away. But clearly I'm out of step as it's one of the most successful clubs at the moment.

I don't know what the CSCC has done to upset you or others. They do have a one off membership fee though so anyone can do at least one race with them which presumably is all they'd want to do anyway.

Originally Posted by historic racer

I don't quite know what to make of what you have come out with, what I would really like to say would get me banned. So polite answer is you must have more money than sense and or enjoy being taken for a ride. Most people look for value for money which generally is hard earned, mine is, but there is less of it at the moment hence my post.

Unlike you (and you are not alone), I value the ability to be able to enter whatever races I like with the relevant car. That for me is value for money. If it got to the stage that I chose races on the basis of price alone then it would be time to hang up the helmet.

Of course if you really want value for money, why not enter the 360 at Snetterton? No separate membership fees, 6hrs endurance racing. 5th/6th May. But then again you may consider the cost too high, yet it is probably the best value racing you'll get this season.

[andy97]

The CSCC DO allow one off taster races where a potential entrant has to join the club only (£39) and the registration fee is waived. Any further races and you do have to pay the series registrtaion fee. Plenty of people have taken this route. I'm sorry that "historic racer" doesn't feel that's right but the club tries to be as inclusive and welcoming as possible but when we only have a calendar of eight domestic meetings its not fair on the rest of the membership to waive a series registration fee for 25% of the calendar.

[Robyn Slater]

its not fair on the rest of the membership to waive a series registration fee for 25% of the calendar

This is the way i look at it. Why should people be able to cherry pick their meetings at the expence of those who commit to a particular series.

However i think 1 free of regestration fee taster meeting should continue to be offered.

[historic racer]

Have noticed that the WSSCC with their Pembrey meeting have introduced a sliding scale entry fee to combat the falling grids that they experienced last year. Basically the entry fee is £300 for a grid of 15 cars, if they get 20 then the rebate means the fee is £190 and 25 means fee of £150, half price ! They have also waivered the reg and club fees and as a result have 15 piad for entry's with another 5 definate and another 5 highly likely, thats results based on fact not theory. I would support this endevour but the distance is too great from mid kent, but then the saving would pay for the fuel, food for thought ? Its not a case of cherry picking as someone put it but wanting to stay close to Brands ( just up the road ) , I have a set amount of money to spend running the car for someone else to drive , do I spend it on entry fees or travelling and club memberships. The CSCC allow one taster event full stop not one per year as some people seem to think and Im not the only one to have been turned away, who runs the CSCC not the commitee by the looks of it, but one person who decides what he thinks should happen. It will be interesting to look at their entry's in 2012 compared to 2011 when in quite a few meeting they lost money. My business is generally recession proof but even I am feeling the repercussions and there are a lot of financial problems sitting in the background waiting to be unleashed, 2012 will be tough.

[andy97]

I can assure you that the CSCC Committee do run the club, and seeing as there are over 700 racing members (up from about 450 about 3 - 4 years ago), it must be doing something right. The club lost money at some meetings in 2011 because some of the usual "guest series" didn't race with us; the club's own membership grew and series like Swinging Sixties had to be split in to 2 to cope with demand, whilst Future Classics sometimes had reserves.

[Derwent Motorsp]

Again I would point out that this "closed to club" attitude applies only to race meetings for some reason. It never happens in speed events of rallying where you can see entries from all manner of clubs.
The MSA permits (as I said above) allow organising clubs to invite members of other clubs to take part without having to join. Simples!
I am secretary of one of the biggest voluntary run clubs in the country and our membership fee is just £16 which includes one of the best monthly magazines around and a wide range of events. I am also a member of the MGCC (an excellent club) so why should I fork out £39 to join CSCC to do one event?

[Peter Mallett]

Originally Posted by Derwent Motorsp

I am also a member of the MGCC (an excellent club) so why should I fork out £39 to join CSCC to do one event?

Presumably because you want to enter one of their races?

I am also a member of the MGCC but having paid my subs I doubt if I'll get to race with them this year. Perhaps I should demand my money back. I also belong to the BARC. Again I don't think I'll be doing any of their events this year.

[Tim Falce]

Originally Posted by midgetman

Regarding the CSCC in particular, I've had a couple of contacts with them as a potential entrant and I have to say that their attitude drove me away. But clearly I'm out of step as it's one of the most successful clubs at the moment.

I thought it was just me, glad I'm not alone.

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

Which as you know is exactly my situation. But I fail to see why clubs should change just because someone who thinks they are important (not you incidentally) wants to race with them. Surely the corrollary is that if the clubs fail then there's nowhere to race? Ergo pay the fees to keep them going.

I don't know what the CSCC has done to upset you or others. They do have a one off membership fee though so anyone can do at least one race with them which presumably is all they'd want to do anyway.
Unlike you (and you are not alone), I value the ability to be able to enter whatever races I like with the relevant car. That for me is value for money. If it got to the stage that I chose races on the basis of price alone then it would be time to hang up the helmet.

That works both ways, some clubs think they are too important and get too choosy and then they end up not having have enough people who want to race with them.

Originally Posted by andy97

The CSCC DO allow one off taster races where a potential entrant has to join the club only (£39) and the registration fee is waived. Any further races and you do have to pay the series registrtaion fee. Plenty of people have taken this route. I'm sorry that "historic racer" doesn't feel that's right but the club tries to be as inclusive and welcoming as possible but when we only have a calendar of eight domestic meetings its not fair on the rest of the membership to waive a series registration fee for 25% of the calendar.

25% of that calendar is two races, hardly a lot and if you don't allow championship points or even class or race wins to stand then full members aren't losing out.

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

I am also a member of the MGCC but having paid my subs I doubt if I'll get to race with them this year. Perhaps I should demand my money back. I also belong to the BARC. Again I don't think I'll be doing any of their events this year.

Thousands of people are members of the MGCC and don't race, I'm a member of the JEC and don't race with them, there's more to a marque club membership than racing so I don't see your point.

[Peter Mallett]

Originally Posted by Tim Falce

.......

That works both ways, some clubs think they are too important and get too choosy and then they end up not having have enough people who want to race with them.

What do you mean by choosy? Which series or championship are you referring to?

Originally Posted by Tim Falce

Thousands of people are members of the MGCC and don't race, I'm a member of the JEC and don't race with them, there's more to a marque club membership than racing so I don't see your point.

Agreed which was my point.

I know many people think value for money equals "cheap" which is not the same thing. I get seriously fed up with people who do nothing but moan. The world does not owe you or me a race or anything else, live with it. If you don't like the clubs who organise races for your car then either sell the car and get something to race elsewhere or just shut up.

As I said, all these people moaning because clubs want to run their business could possibly enter the 360. Why don't they?

[Derwent Motorsp]

Actually no Peter. I am a member of the MGCC due to my wider interest in MGs and all the other events and natters that we have. Racing is just one facet of the MGCC's activities.
Just as I am a member of WMC - and if I wish to do speed events or rallies anywhere in the north of England or Scotland I can do under WMC as they are an invited club, or part of an invited regional association. The same actually applies to the MGCC in any discipline other than racing.

[midgetman]

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

I don't know what the CSCC has done to upset you or others. They do have a one off membership fee though so anyone can do at least one race with them which presumably is all they'd want to do anyway.

Doesn't matter, this isn't an anti-CSCC rant. Suffice to say it's not just financial. I've also had issues with MGCC which is one of the reasons I've left the club, given up MGs and won't race with them. Doubt I'll cause sleepless nights in Corsham or Abingdon

Some of the clubs *do* act as if they are too important for the drivers. If a club/championship is struggling for numbers, it seems daft to turn away one-off drivers who would like to join them for a day. If you've got full grids, then that's a different matter. Still, the Market decides and change is occurring.

It's an interesting situation. Karts, speed events, even grass tracking, if you belong to one club you're welcome at many events. But circuit racing is so cliquey, "if you're not in my gang you can't play with me". I wonder why it's grown up that way? Does it stem from "the right crowd and no crowding"? Does it stem from the fact that there is no common set of rules for circuit racing, unlike the other disciplines? I think there is a thread on that subject in the "National" forum, I suggest the two are linked.

Actually, I see registration fees as a tax on rubbish drivers like me. The minority of the grid win the prizes, the majority pay for them. Sliding scale should be applied, the more you win, the higher your registration fee. Could have double consequences...spread the wins out more, keep championships closer as guys decide they can't afford to win

[midgetman]

Ummm, OT but what's the little red nosed man at the top of my previous comment and how did he get there? Doesn't sum up my state this evening (yet, but we can work on it!)

[Lancsbreaker]

This is getting more and more a dialogue of the deaf, as no-one actually wants to consider an attitude other than their own, as far as I can see - and we're certainly repeating ourselves - if not from this thread then from other similar ones.....

I can understand to a degree why people think every event should be open to everyone, and can't see why racing should be different from other events, like Rallies, where typically a couple of Associations will be invited, letting members of maybe 100 clubs potentially to enter. However, consider that Rally organisers typically will only run one or at most two events per year, and, apart from Internationals, they won't have the same financial commitment up front that any Club running a race meeting will have - and Race clubs are running maybe 8 events a year - its a big financial commitment that they understandably (to my mind, anyway) want to get some commitment to help finance.

Add to that the fact that as has been said, its not uncommon (at least at CSCC events) for races to be oversubscribed - I've been sweating on the reserve list before now - and imagine how someone who has paid their series registration fee will feel about not getting an entry because a few drivers who aren't doing the series (and haven't paid a fee) but put in an entry "because its their local circuit" have bumped them off the grid?

OK, maybe if there are spare places after normal entries close "non-series" drivers could be allowed in, but to be honest one of the attractions of racing in a series against largely the same competitors is that you not only get to know what to expect from each other (and in CSCC driving standards are well controlled) but also build up a real sense of cameraderie. The paddock at a CSCC event is, I've always found, a friendly place. People only doing the odd one or two races don't quite have the same commitment to and understanding of Club philosophy, in my experience.

So - at the end of the day, you pays your money and you takes your choice, I guess........

[andy97]

This thread started out as a very valid atempt to have a discussion about the way most car race meetings are run as distinct from the way that rallies and sprints etc are run but it seems to have become a CSCC bashing exercise. Its well known that I am a CSCC man, and a Committee member so I am biased but I'm afraid I just don't understand the turn of events in this thread.

CSCC organises races meetings in a similar way to many other clubs and competitors have a choice as to whether they like our way of doing things, or our series, or whether they prefer to race with another club. The CSCC's membership fees and registration fees are lower than many other and it tries to offer a differrent experience by offering 40 min races across all its own series. Its a members club; it exists to provide value for money racing for its members. It has one paid full time official and a committee and tries to keep costs as low as possible. It is not a company and it has no shareholders. It tries to make a "profit" one year in order to have reserves to cover the losses in another.

The CSCC doesn't get everything right but the increasing membership numbers and race entries show that it must be doing OK, by and large. The club does offer taster races to new entrants but this is an attempt to encourage individuals to become members and race with us again regularly in the future, because having a large pool of regular racing members is the way to secure value for money racing in the future. It does not offer one off race memberships to members of other clubs because it wants to offer a service for its full members, and this is only possible when the club knows that it has the large pool of members there in the first place.

I'll repeat, CSCC is a members club and will try to reward the loyalty of its members, ie those that commit to membership & registration, by continuing to offer the best VfM racing it can. The business model requires a healthy & loyal membership, registered for the appropriate series, who the club can be confident will turn up regularly to race at its race meetings.

Race meetings cost between £50-80K per day to run and a good proportion of that expenditure (circuit fees, for eg) is committed approx 6 weeks in advance. The club can only be prepared to take the risk of organising those events if it can be confident that it will get very good grids. It gains that confidence from having a large group of people registered for the series'.

I am really sorry that some individuals have had poor experiencers with the CSCC but it is impossible to please all the people all of the time and the vast majority of members seem very happy with the clubs approach. Thats not to say that the club cannot improve its service because it can and it does try its best within the limitations of its staffing and volunteer committee.

I'm afraid it is not true to say that the club members are not affected if the club offers individuals the chance to race more than once for no registration fee - Swinging Sixties and Future Classics regularly have many reserves for their races, so if we allow too many temp members the regulars may be disadvantaged by not being able to get an entry.

If anyone has specific issues with the CSCC, or the way they have been treated, or if members have suggestions for improving things then please do not hesitate to get in touch with me by PM, or via the CSCC members only forum (that is part of 10-tenths) or the CSCC office. Many of the CSCC Committee members will also be at Race Retro this coming weekend, manning the CSCC stand, please stop by for a chat and a coffee and we will be very happy to discuss any points that you raise, & I hope that you'll fill a membership & registration form in and leave your cheque with the staff!!!!!!!

[Lancsbreaker]

Hey Andy - judging by the last two posts its looks like we've started this season's racing already - just by keyboard

And I won? ;-) (Not likely to be repeated!)

[historic racer]

Andy use a bit of common sense here, at none of the clubs would I expect to get an entry ahead of registered competitors. What I offered was to take up late entry if space was available ie if there are spaces after the close of entry's the club could contact me and say entry available if you want it. Running as invited with no points or trophy's how does this not benifit any club , maybe it does as three said ok, so think of me when you have spaces in FC or TT.Not bashing the CSCC as we enjoyed racing with them in 2011.

[terence]

Since starting in Historics,there has always been a nominal fee for non-registered competitors.Personally,dont see it as a problem as long as it IS nominal.Think of the fee as a softener for members.

[Derwent Motorsp]

As has been said above some racing clubs seem to run in a completely different way to the majoroity of motor clubs. I appreciate that registered competitors should have first call on races places but there is no reason that others cannot make up the numbers. It is economic sense. If a meeting just gained ten extra entries it could make a big difference to the accounts.
I was a bit concerned to read that the CSCC was not a limited company. I think I would be doubtful about becoming a member if that was the case.
The cost of putting on a major forest rally now is more than most race meetings. I was Chair of the committee that runs the Pirelli International for many years and the turnover is greater than for 3 days of MG Live! at Silverstone.
Increasingly drivers are doing fewer events and perhaps not travelling as much due to cost. Most HSCC events are "dan sath" but on their annual visit to Croft (my nearest track at 80 miles away) I enquired about doing a race but with membership and the extra supplement for an entry it was in fact better value to drive to Silverstone for the Bentley DC double header. I was not the only northern driver to do that and there were places on all the HSCC grids at Croft. Their loss!

[McMuttley]

Originally Posted by Derwent Motorsp

Most HSCC events are "dan sath" .......

Their loss!

"Their loss" - a club's priority is inevitably its members? I suspect the members would think so (looking at the HSCC results sheet for Croft, they had circa 250+ with two races each - so I suspect a few non-Members wouldnt be a priority - even if there might be circumstances where / when they should be welcomed).

Its simple, most clubs do allow for the occaissional visitor, but with respect their subscribed members, why should they offer registration free access, that would not be appropriate.

So is it really about cost ?


I'm still at a loss as to how a fee such as £39 or even £140 could have a material impact on the cost of any single race. If you pay £140 or so for several races, then yes it would be a bit steep, but if you are doing several races then I suspect we should sign up to a particular series and get VFM. If you are only doing a race a year, then £140 on top of getting the car ready for the season etc etc etc would again be modest.

Otherwise maybe that is the necessary cost for cherrypicking personally favoured local events run by Clubs for, as other have said, principally their members. For every local looking for a cheap race, there are probably several hundred members supporting a Club to run an event, maybe that event helps to keep the local circuit viable?

Maybe its not the Club's fault, but the circuits, or even the competitors?

If the demand were there for open events in the regions (nuerth, sarf, wurst of England), surely we would have lots of libre style events for competitors with roofs, token doors and cockpits respectively?

But then we all want to run close in class / speed / period to avoid a lonely procession - thats where the clubs bring us together for our own good.


"dan sath"

HSCC Calendar.....
Donnington - Mids
Cadwell - East of England
Silverstone X2 - Mids
Croft - Up't'North (and heavily pushed by HSCC to its members to attend as a key date in its Calender)
Oulton Park - North West

oh yes - Brands - SEast

I trust this thread doesnt go region'ist as well as club'ist - being "dan sath eeeast" most events are a reet treck.

(not a Club Member)
(t'northerner squatting down south)
(so no specific axe to grind)

[Chris Sharples]

Muttley is (as always) correct. The HSCC had in the order of 250 entries at Croft. I think (but am not certain) that this was Croft's largest entry for a car meeting in 2012. The Croft management did a brilliant job to support us in 2011 and yes we are encouraging soft southerners (like me) to make the trip in 2012.

We are delighted when local drivers come out to play with us. Of course members come first but if we have space on the grid we welcome non-members to race with us for a once off payment of £20 for 'day membership'. It is possible that we haven't publicised this particularly well. I came across a couple of MGA drivers at last years BDC meeting who would have entered had they known. That is a lesson for us.

What we hope is that, having raced once, drivers enjoy the experience and want to come out again. Of course they then have to take out full membership. When they do I am pretty sure a friendly call to the office would see the £20 credited off their £150 annual membership fee.

This feels like a fair and reasonable approach. Our main responsibility is to look after committed and loyal members who support us throughout the year, but we don't have a closed door policy to someone who wants to come and experience an HSCC meeting.

Chris

[Peter Mallett]

Originally Posted by McMuttley

So is it really about cost ?

Nope.

I've joined the HSCC for the first time this year and I've paid the annual fee. I may not get more than one race with the club due to geography and work but I don't begrudge the fee because that's what keeps the events running. Long may it remain so.

[Derwent Motorsp]

I always think southerners have a strange view of UK geography. Some years ago the MGOC held their "Northern National" at Alton Towers!
When i was a kif I lived in Baldock in hertforshire soe some years and we headed to Silverstone, Snetterton or Crystal Palace every second weekend in a 100E.
Living in the north of England (and by that I don't mean Manchester which is over 100 miles south) the circuits are the following distances:
Silverstone 260
Donington 220
Anglesey 230
Croft 90
Oulton 145
Knockhill 145
Now I not not complaining as living in such a lovely area has to have drawbacks. I would also point out that many fellow racers in Scotland have much longer distances to travel to get to these tracks. Thus we have to be selective in what we do. Places like Brands and Thruxton might as well be in France.