Is the Am class a bad idea?

[GAMEOFGUTS21]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

That is a problem with multi-class racing, in that each driver isn't the same and it's sort of a crapshoot. McNish in the run to the esses last year and in the Porsche Curves this year probably made successful passes seemingly hundreds of times, but it's still a calculated risk, and with any calculated risk, there's always a chance, no matter how small, that things won't go your way, and Allan rolled snake eyes in those two instances out of many that went as planned for him.

The deal with Ant is just the same--Davidson probably has made many successful overtakes in that area of the race track, and that was one that went bad for him because of an other driver's mistake.

The problem is a double edged sword--if we get rid of all the pro-am/semi-pro drivers, there's basically no chance in hell we'll get 55 classified cars on the LM grid, but if we keep them the chances of this stuff happening goes up. But I do believe that there should be certain, enforceable standards. I believe that the Rob Kauffman deal last year led to the ACO recommending--but not making mandatory--the idea of using the indicator blinkers to show an LMP car or a faster GT car the safest/preferred overtaking line.

I also think that if properly implemented that the elder Davidson's idea of using some indicator such as a light or something like that to indicate when the pro-am driver is in the GT-Am or LMP2 cars could be a help. One of the issues that was heavily talked about on Speed's LM coverage is that the LMP1/2 drivers get into a rhythm, but they don't know who they're dealing with because of driver changes and individual driver characteristics. The issue here might be with implementation--the only way I can see it working is with the driver ID system, but it might very well be workable.

But with the pro-am drivers, I'm afraid that they're here to stay--sportscar racing, and most racing in general, had it's origins with rich dudes who bought cars and raced them. Even F1/Grand Prix and even (to an extent) NASCAR started out that way. Of course, racing "professionalized" when these wealthy dudes stepped aside and paid professional drivers to race in their place, and we got the idea of the professional privateer team out of that. I'm not saying that pro-am drivers need to be banned, but I do wish that the standards of experience and performance were a little tighter sometimes.

Also, we have to look at this from the point of a common thread--the Ferrari 458. I can never remember a GT car that's gotten run into by faster cars at such a frequent rate, and with Allan's offs and Ant's spectacular--and unexpected--ride, they involved F458s. I know that visibility out of the closed cars isn't very good, but the 458 seems to have horrible visibility in it's own right, too. I mean, visibility out of the back has to be almost as bad as that of a Lamborghini Countach, a car that was famous, or rather, infamous, for it's drivers having to sit on the sill to parallel park or reverse out of a drive.

Last year, Anthony Beltosie said that he didn't see Allan until it was too late to hang out wide--you can see in the replay that the Ferrari did start to ease into a turn, but Allan was down there. Yes, it can be argued that Allan got racy to early with the #1 Audi, but again, it was one of those passes that was made without error many times before, too.

Allan also spun himself out this year in the Porsche Curves--where Fassler was damn lucky not to hit anything when he lost it by himself in the middle of the night--ironically trying to pass that same Luxury Racing 458. It's driver said that he saw the Audi, but wasn't sure on where it wanted to pass. Again, Mr. Davidson's and the ACO's suggestion of the indicator blinker possibly would've helped, considering that Allan was racing the #1 Audi for the lead at the time with about 2.5 hours to go, and it was crunch time.

As for Ant, what happened when that Ferrari cut into him was sort of inexcusable. In a few years past, the fact that an LMP couldn't make the pass there might have been a legit excuse, but with the grip and handling that they have now, LMPs can pass in areas long thought to be impossible now. Even more inexcusable was the fact that the Ferrari driver saw Davidson, and should've known that Ant could pass there.

I don't think that it's just one factor that's causing these accidents, since two of the Ferrari GT deals involved pro drivers driving the 458s. I think that it's the slowing of the LMPs' top speed, the GT cars getting faster on the top-end, the LMP's cornering and braking abilities, the fact that these races are now a bunch of sprint races occurring in a 24 hour event, and visibility issues with the closed LMPs and some of the GT cars all combining at times into a perfect storm. Add in some pro-am drivers who probably shouldn't be on track, and you'll get the occasional collision.

And does anyone know if Ant will be up to his duties as commentator for Sky's F1 coverage this weekend? I guess that's up to when he can be released from observation at the hospital and what his restrictions may be, but I can see Anthony being pretty eager to get back to work. I certainly know that he probably won't be back into his job as Mercedes-Benz AMG GP test driver--those things give me back aches just thinking about sitting in one--for a couple of months probably, which with the in-season test restrictions doesn't mean much. But it may have an impact on if AD will be back in a Toyota, since they only have one car entered for the remaining races (maybe in part by default--unless the tub was salvaged from the #8 Toyota). But Silverstone is 2 months+2 weeks away, and that was the prognosis that Anthony was given--2-3 months for the injury to completely heal in his case, so that splits the difference. I hope that Ant remains in good spirits (not hard based on some of the dry humor he's given about what happened per his Twitter comments), and I hope that he'll be back involved in motorsport soon, be it as a driver or a media member.

Wow. That was a commitment of a post.

I met Anthony Davidson once at the airport back from an F1 race in Montreal and had a chat with him. I'm not a race reporter or anything, but I sure hope him the best as I really enjoyed talking with him.

[Holt]

I think the Am class can be improved and made safer

NASCAR and Indycar have rookies put large bright yellow stripes on the bumper or rear suspension of their cars to warn approaching drivers that they are inexperienced.

How about equipping GTE Am cars with some sort of bright yellow glow in the dark stripes on the rear bumper so prototype drivers know they are dealing with an inexperienced driver?

It doesn't have to be a stripe, it can be anything, even a small flashing light

If Davidson knew the Ferrari ahead of him was driven by a gentlemen driver, its very, very unlikely he would have tried that move. Likewise, last year Rockenfeller would have never tried to pass Kauffman at that point, or would have been more cautious if he knew Kauffman was behind the wheel.

Other ways to improve safety would be to add a 4th driver and limit the "gentlemen driver" to 3 hours total, and perhaps none at night until he earns a higher license

[littleman]

The age old problem with mixed class Sports Car racing, and particularly at Le Mans, is not amateur drivers but the huge speed differential's and not seeing a prototype soon enough.

Why not equip GT cars with some sort of sensors (like parking sensors) which pick up a signal constantly transmitted by all prototype's (P1 and P2).

Maybe a light on the dash could flash progressively faster as the prototype approached - start at say 75 metres away?

[wewantourdarbyback]

Um, the only difference in the Am class to before is calling them amateurs.

No gentlemen drivers - far fewer cars at La Sarthe.

[MagVanisher]

Originally Posted by Holt

I think the Am class can be improved and made safer

NASCAR and Indycar have rookies put large bright yellow stripes on the bumper or rear suspension of their cars to warn approaching drivers that they are inexperienced.

How about equipping GTE Am cars with some sort of bright yellow glow in the dark stripes on the rear bumper so prototype drivers know they are dealing with an inexperienced driver?

It doesn't have to be a stripe, it can be anything, even a small flashing light

How about having a yellow tint on their GTE-Am cars too...

[canam]

Originally Posted by wewantourdarbyback

Um, the only difference in the Am class to before is calling them amateurs.

No gentlemen drivers - far fewer cars at La Sarthe.

I guess safety goes out the window where grids are concerned.

[KA]

Originally Posted by Holt

I think the Am class can be improved and made safer

NASCAR and Indycar have rookies put large bright yellow stripes on the bumper or rear suspension of their cars to warn approaching drivers that they are inexperienced.

How about equipping GTE Am cars with some sort of bright yellow glow in the dark stripes on the rear bumper so prototype drivers know they are dealing with an inexperienced driver?

It doesn't have to be a stripe, it can be anything, even a small flashing light

If Davidson knew the Ferrari ahead of him was driven by a gentlemen driver, its very, very unlikely he would have tried that move. Likewise, last year Rockenfeller would have never tried to pass Kauffman at that point, or would have been more cautious if he knew Kauffman was behind the wheel.

Other ways to improve safety would be to add a 4th driver and limit the "gentlemen driver" to 3 hours total, and perhaps none at night until he earns a higher license

We're not always dealing with inexperienced drivers- Some of the 'gentleman drivers' in GTE Am (and LMP2) have been around for years, and have plenty of track time at Le Mans, in the ALMS/ELMS/WEC and other races where they're used to being in traffic and lapped by faster cars.

Here's a thought- Hypothetically, which might pose bigger risk to an LMP1 trying to lap them? a GTE Am car with an experienced amateur behind the wheel who's driven at Le Mans a dozen times before, or a GTE Pro entry driven by a 20 year-old rookie straight out of F3 or GP2, with little or no experience of having to deal with much faster cars trying to lap him? Sure, he's a professional driver, but....

[gucom]

Originally Posted by littleman

The age old problem with mixed class Sports Car racing, and particularly at Le Mans, is not amateur drivers but the huge speed differential's and not seeing a prototype soon enough.

Why not equip GT cars with some sort of sensors (like parking sensors) which pick up a signal constantly transmitted by all prototype's (P1 and P2).

Maybe a light on the dash could flash progressively faster as the prototype approached - start at say 75 metres away?

I think this is the best solution offered so far, together with enforcing the use of blinkers to indicate either where the GT car is going or where the LMP car should pass.

[Articus]

The guy has to know the LMP is there before he can activate the blinkers... And i think asking an Am driver to have to activate this blinker while driving/braking is like asking fitting 1 more person in an austin Mini with 9 people already in it...The idea that the LMP cars emit a frequency that GT cars can pickup and signal on the dash or windshield is great. Then we can just say the GT car knew he was there..but just decided to trade paint anyway...

[Purist]

I'm not as big on having a flashing light on the dash or something like that. The drivers should be checking their six regardless. A flashing light or a warning tone could be a serious distraction and an unwanted item in an already task-saturated environment. A visible warning is most useful if it is directly in the driver's line of sight, but a flashing light there might be too disturbing to normal driving, while having it off to the side could easily mean that it just doesn't get checked frequently enough to be of much assistance.

[canam]

It is the responsibility of the overtaking driver to make sure the passing manoeuvre is safe.

The problem is that the stewards are weak in the application of this requirement.

It is stated at every driver briefing...and more but the stewards are reluctant to punish works teams.

The faster guys push too much. If they got a 30 second stop and go, they wouldn't go for the 50/50 or even the 70/30. They would wait for the right time.


Did Rebellion push people off the track? Don't think so

[littleman]

How about a thin bead around the wing mirror glass, of soft blue light, which comes on when the sensors pick up a prototype?

[Articus]

Originally Posted by Purist

I'm not as big on having a flashing light on the dash or something like that. The drivers should be checking their six regardless. A flashing light or a warning tone could be a serious distraction and an unwanted item in an already task-saturated environment. A visible warning is most useful if it is directly in the driver's line of sight, but a flashing light there might be too disturbing to normal driving, while having it off to the side could easily mean that it just doesn't get checked frequently enough to be of much assistance.

Given the way the Audi's flash there FLOOD Lights im not sure a little indicator in the cockpit would be anymore distracting hahaha.

[Purist]

Canam, it makes no sense to penalize someone unless they really did something "wrong". There is no such thing as a 100% pass in racing, period.

You penalize a guy for trying, and not doing anything intentional, you may **** him off, and not in a good way. The driver may well push harder, and make damn sure he either gets back up there, or causes one hell of a mess on-track.

The quick guys aren't going to just wait, period. If they are, they're not the quick guys out there. It's just that simple. People who are this competitive are going to push, not matter what.

Get too strident in your officiating, and the drivers might do something like what happened a few years ago at Talladega of all places. The drivers were told "no bump drafting". So, we got 100 laps of single-file, processional running, and EVERYBODY HATED IT! You punish every "questionable" pass, you will have NO PASSING AT ALL! Of that, I am convinced.

I'll just say this; I can't blame a guy if somebody turns into him. If the quicker car is alongside, or pulling ahead, it's on the slower guy if contact is made. I will NOT punish someone for trying; if they are made afraid to even try maneuvers, they're no longer racing drivers. Blatant or outright stupid moves/actions are another matter, but that's not what is under discussion here.

[Rennen]

Nice piece Chernaudi well thought out and fair. Ant's got to wear a Body Cast, so I doubt he would be able to travel around too much for a while.

As we know the onus is on the overtaker...so he needs all the info he can have before making the move...So I still feel it's a matter of better identification of when an AM driver is aboard...so IMHO switching on an AM ID light would be the most practicle way of helping out the LMP drivers.

[Holt]

Originally Posted by KA

We're not always dealing with inexperienced drivers- Some of the 'gentleman drivers' in GTE Am (and LMP2) have been around for years, and have plenty of track time at Le Mans, in the ALMS/ELMS/WEC and other races where they're used to being in traffic and lapped by faster cars.

Here's a thought- Hypothetically, which might pose bigger risk to an LMP1 trying to lap them? a GTE Am car with an experienced amateur behind the wheel who's driven at Le Mans a dozen times before, or a GTE Pro entry driven by a 20 year-old rookie straight out of F3 or GP2, with little or no experience of having to deal with much faster cars trying to lap him? Sure, he's a professional driver, but....

Perhaps any rookie should get the same treatment, and certainly any driver with a low level license. A small light fitted on the bumper of GT cars that flashes when a rookie or "gentlemen" driver is behind the wheel will work fine.

I think alot of people are forgetting that Kauffman saw Rockenfeller and knew that he was there. Perazzini saw Davidson and knew he was there. Both accidents were not a result of a GTE Am driver not knowing a prototype was behind him.

The problem is both Kauffman and Perazzini aren't the greatest of drivers. They both were entering tricky kinks with a prototype closing on them fast. Both decided to run the exact same racing line they always have because they weren't talented enough to make room for the closing prototype.

And that brings me back to my original point. The problem is prototype drivers not knowing the quality of driver ahead of them in the GT car. Again as I suggested earlier, there needs to be a flashing light or large bright sticker on the GT car when an inexperienced or slow driver is behind the wheel. This way the LMP drivers have some idea of which GT cars to trust more then others.

If Anthony Davidson saw a flashing red light on the back of Perazzini's car which signified an inexperienced or slow driver, would have made that move and trusted the Ferrari? I dont think he would have.

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by littleman

How about a thin bead around the wing mirror glass, of soft blue light, which comes on when the sensors pick up a prototype?

I have a similar thing on my road car.

It is often set off by Audi drivers

[Purist]

All this makes me think about how remarkable it seems that drivers of the mid '50s to early '70s could deal with race traffic having a speed differential of as much as 100-mph, not just 30-mph.

[Fogelhund]

Originally Posted by Purist

All this makes me think about how remarkable it seems that drivers of the mid '50s to early '70s could deal with race traffic having a speed differential of as much as 100-mph, not just 30-mph.

Think about the speeds the Porsche 917's were doing, and what the GT cars were doing at that time. We are talking 230-240mph, and some of the GT cars had to be doing 120-140mph.

[FIRE]

Originally Posted by Holt

I think the Am class can be improved and made safer

NASCAR and Indycar have rookies put large bright yellow stripes on the bumper or rear suspension of their cars to warn approaching drivers that they are inexperienced.

How about equipping GTE Am cars with some sort of bright yellow glow in the dark stripes on the rear bumper so prototype drivers know they are dealing with an inexperienced driver?

It doesn't have to be a stripe, it can be anything, even a small flashing light

If Davidson knew the Ferrari ahead of him was driven by a gentlemen driver, its very, very unlikely he would have tried that move. Likewise, last year Rockenfeller would have never tried to pass Kauffman at that point, or would have been more cautious if he knew Kauffman was behind the wheel.

I like this idea. It doesn't mean there will be no stupid accidents anymore but I think it helps to reduce them.

Originally Posted by littleman

The age old problem with mixed class Sports Car racing, and particularly at Le Mans, is not amateur drivers but the huge speed differential's and not seeing a prototype soon enough.

Why not equip GT cars with some sort of sensors (like parking sensors) which pick up a signal constantly transmitted by all prototype's (P1 and P2).

Maybe a light on the dash could flash progressively faster as the prototype approached - start at say 75 metres away?

I mentioned this already last weekend. In the Dakar rally they use the Sentinel system which warns a competitor when a faster car is approaching.

[Holt]

Originally Posted by Purist

All this makes me think about how remarkable it seems that drivers of the mid '50s to early '70s could deal with race traffic having a speed differential of as much as 100-mph, not just 30-mph.

Were they pushing as hard as they were today?

I remember one of the Ford GT prototypes winning Le Mans overall in the late 60s by using half throttle down the entire Mulsanne. Back then it was likely more about surviving, so they probably took it much easier through traffic, now it's more about speed and ultimate lap times.

Today it is a 24 hour sprint race, drivers are taking more risks because the tortoise doesnt have a chance anymore and the cars are built tougher then they ever have been

[Maelochs]

Also, back then, prototypes could easily pass GTs on the straights, or pretty much anywhere else. The P-cars no longer have huge advantages in acceleration, and in top speed only near the end of very long straights; a lot of the P-cars' advantages are in braking and cornering due to ridiculous downforce. This is why we see overtaking in corners, and why we see accidents while overtaking in corners.

[Adam43]

How many of the Am drivers drove into someone? How many of the Pro drivers drove into someone?
I suppose it may be greater 'strike rate' by the Am, but it isn't at an unacceptable level. To judge this you will have to define what the unacceptable level is.

Originally Posted by NaBUru38

I believe that it's hard to fill a 56-car grid only with professionals. It's not that there aren't 168 professional drivers willing to race. But some would reject driving for positions 45-56. It's natural that the backfielders get one or two amateurs.

And, to repeat what has been said above, we may not even get cars 45-56 if we don't have these drivers.

Further no one is forcing any of these drivers to take part. If a Pro driver doesn't think it is acceptable then they don't have to take part.
There are probably some Am drivers who think that about some of the Pro drivers!

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by Maelochs

Also, back then, prototypes could easily pass GTs on the straights, or pretty much anywhere else. The P-cars no longer have huge advantages in acceleration, and in top speed only near the end of very long straights; a lot of the P-cars' advantages are in braking and cornering due to ridiculous downforce. This is why we see overtaking in corners, and why we see accidents while overtaking in corners.

An interesting point. It isn't as easy as just blasting past because you have a quicker car in a straight line, but you can use the cornering speed to exit the corner quicker and time it so you get the job done on the exit. It isn't as easy and is a real skill. Paul Frère describes the concept of timing an overtaking maneuver in his 1963 book Sports Car and Competition Driving . Timing an overtake to be safe is also equally relevant on the road. You see people have no concept of this when they tailgate others, or sit so close to the truck in front that they can't even see if there is a gap. Often they are in Audis.

[Purist]

Holt, I'm sure some of the old races were. Then again, the 1969 race between the GT40 Mk.I and the Porsche 908 had a final separation of those two cars of something like 90 meters. Also, at least for several hours in 1967, Jochen Rindt was staying shockingly close to the GT40 Mk.IVs while driving a Porsche 907. And, of course, that overall race speed record that stood for about 40 years was set in a Porsche 917LH in 1971.

Talking about places to pass and speed differentials, here's something to consider. The classic Le Mans layout (1932-67) had, by my count, 11 corners. Adding the Ford Chicane brought that number up to 13 turns for 1968-71. The Porsche Curves were added in 1972. The three chicanes add eight corners. Presently, I count 31 corners at the Circuit de la Sarthe.

In an interview last year with Derek Bell during the McNish safety car, Bell basically said he thought there were too many corners at Le Mans now. He also pointed out the high cornering speeds as an issue, as well as his thought that 240-mph, on a straight, should be reasonably doable.