Msv & Brscc

[simes43]

Agreed Chezza.

More use of the cheaper Snett and less of the more expensive Brands this year for the 750mc.

[chezza]

Yes I did notice there was a lot of rounds at snett this season with 3 2 dayers there!

[Al Weyman]

And lets hope that the usual solution of just whacking the entry prices up is not on the aggenda because I think the economic climate is all wrong for another entry fee hike, as far i am concerned it will mean I just enter less or look for bargains. Business is not brilliant here at the moment and in bad times pleasure pursuits will always be the first to suffer.

[Don Truman]

It is a fact of life-if the circuit hire charge or any other charge goes up- of necessity entry fees will have to rise otherwise the organizer goes broke.
Don Truman

[Tim Wilkinson]

It isn't a necessity - if the clubs and circuits could get their act together and promote events then there would be money coming in from someone except the competitor. That seems to be how oval racing works, so why can't clubs and circuits work together to the same end?

Look how sucessful events can be when they are promoted locally - take Lydden's ovalfest as an example.

[R59]

That's the ideal teej.

The sad fact of life is that the circuit owner, say MSV, charges £10K for the meeting. They've got the money in their pot, and only need to put minimal staff on to cover gate/security etc...
The club get's nothing of the gate fee, so why promote it, and hand the circuit owner, who isn't interested, a heap of money, without the club getting a penny.

My feeling is that there are two ways to fix this. 1. The circuits run the meetings, promote the meetings, and if they do it properly, entry fees are irrelevant in terms of overall meeting revenue, and can be dropped. IE: the place is heaving with paying spectators.

2. The circuits share the gate money with the club - say 70% to the club, 30% to the circuit, or 50/50 if the circuit promote the meeting. It's then in the club's interest to get more people through the gate. To do that you have to run exciting racing that the public will want to come and see. Pack the place out, take lots of bucks on the gate, and again, can the entry fees.

Motor Racing should be treated as an entertainment which should be sold to the general public as such.

Then we all prosper in our success.

Or, we leave it as it is, and watch the whole lot go down the tubes.

Rob.

[Rod Birley]

Your spot on Rob. However, the circuit owners say only a few meetings are worth promoting, which is why they take the easy option of just accepting the hire fee (may be 10K at Snetterton, but its a lot more at Brands and Donington).
Castle Combe promote all their meetings, BUT they do not accept anything with a grid of less than 15 cars, and they only have one meeting every three or four weeks. Its a bit like Coventry stadium which only has stock cars once a month (first Saturday), always gets a good crowd and a big turnout of cars.

[Piglet]

Racin59, you make some good points but you make the assumption that money spent on promotion will always equal paying punters through the gates. I'm not sure in motorsport that is necessarily a given.

I think it's also been indicated that giving away free tickets is great at getting bums through the gates but doesn't necessarily encourage people to pay to come another time - they just wait until they get another free ticket! Clearly there is some benefit to it to those who get the benefits of the food/merchandise concessions but I'm not sure it's been demonstrated that this is necessarily a good way of encouraging people to come long term.

I really wish that Powertour had been allowed to continue, IIRC it was always a three year plan to see if the package of entertainment, spectator access etc. would increase gate numbers year on year. It was canned at the end or year two and as I understand it the numbers were moving in the right direction....(sorry, all off topic )

[Rod Birley]

In reply to "teej's" comment, the Lydden festival does work well. A lot of hard work goes into organising and promoting it, but the reward is cheaper entry fees. It is not a big money spinner but everyone benefits in some way and it attracts a reasonable size crowd. Next year's date is already set for September 8th

[Stephen Green]

Great points Rob, but the downside to promoting meetings other than the large ones, is that the circuit have to employ a considerable amount more staff for the day. So, inless they get a significant increase in numbers through the gates, there is little or no advantage.

No one yet has mentioned that some clubs could look at their overheads as a way of reducing the impact on higher costs to competitors.

[kelvin88]

i think the lydden festival would pull an even bigger crowd if it didnt clash with the Brighton speed trials. maybe... maybe not. anyway all this talk of track rental and stuff... how 750 MC entry fees are so much cheaper than BRSCCs if the cost of the track is the same?

[Ian Sowman]

750MC typically get more cars and have lower overheads to cover than the BRSCC.

[Al Weyman]

And why do they get more cars, lower entry fees probably so come on you clubs who is gonna break the cycle you know it makes sense please dont contemplate hiking them up yet again. :-)

[Stephen Green]

I think Ian has hit the nail on the head. They have lower overheads and therefore can offer race entries at a lower cost.

[kelvin88]

They get more cars because the entry fees are lower surely! And when you say overheads what do you mean? What is used in the organising of a race meeting that costs the BRSCC so much more? P.R? Nicer tickets? or are the club drivers subsidising larger meetings?

[Al Weyman]

Exactly. Unless they have a whole staff set up doing it full time unpaid.

[Ian Sowman]

Originally Posted by kelvin88

They get more cars because the entry fees are lower surely! And when you say overheads what do you mean? What is used in the organising of a race meeting that costs the BRSCC so much more? P.R? Nicer tickets? or are the club drivers subsidising larger meetings?

There is an element of truth in the fact that 750MC get entries in some championships that are larger than some of the BRSCC's. This may well be down in part to entry fees - but the vicious circle has to start somewhere.

The BRSCC have more staff than 750MC for a start... You can't just consider the cost of running a race meeting on its own. Obviously if you object to covering higher overheads, you would choose not to race with such a club.

I tend to think that when BRSCC do run other meetings, it is more likely that those events subsidise club ones rather than the other way round.

[Stephen Green]

The BRSCC and other large clubs have office space to rent, staff to pay etc etc. Many of the smaller clubs run on volunteers rather like the marshalling fraternity. The point I was trying to make is that those clubs who have high overheads have to pass on those costs in some form or other.

[kelvin88]

Ian, the vicious circle didnt start with lots of entries though did it?!? I dare say the BRSCC has got more staff but what are they doing? The Clubs objective is to organize motorsport isnt it? i dont mean this to sound confrontational I would just like to know, as a former BRSCC member, what the hell i was paying for that isnt provided by the 750mc.

[barry barnes]

Originally Posted by Piglet

Racin59, you make some good points but you make the assumption that money spent on promotion will always equal paying punters through the gates. I'm not sure in motorsport that is necessarily a given.

I really wish that Powertour had been allowed to continue, IIRC it was always a three year plan to see if the package of entertainment, spectator access etc. would increase gate numbers year on year. It was canned at the end or year two and as I understand it the numbers were moving in the right direction....(sorry, all off topic )

Piglet you are correct, I was on the Powertour in Saloon 2000/National Saloon which at the time had far better support than BTCC - the common factor for its demise was BHL (Foulston's toy) The rumour was that BHL would not give the Powertour circuit dates unless they handed over the Saloon section to bolster BTCC thats how you ended up seeing the Super Production cars on the BTCC bill. In fact on more than one occassion they out numbered the BTCC cars. Unfortunately the loss of the saloons broke the back of the Powertour although many would say it was over ambitious enabling racers to actually get something back for their efforts.
I built a new car for the P/tour and my cost for a season excluding car build but including all other expenses (food, fuel etc - accomodation was in transporter) was £3500 and I made a profit when I sold the car as well !

IT CAN BE DONE !!!!!!!!!!

[Ian Sowman]

Well, whatever the opposite of a vicious circle is... a benign circle perhaps!?

I am quite sure that 750MC does more than enough to satisfy Joe Competitor. BRSCC do it in a different way, which may be more expensive for some of the reasons Stephen has outlined.

Ultimately, Joe Competitor - as a customer - can choose which club he wants to pay his money to.

[kelvin88]

thats very true. it is the competitors choice!

[R59]

Re: promoting the meeting....

They could always start small, and just bung some tickets at some Radio/TV personalities, who may (or may not) speak about it on their show(s) and that may (or may not) encourage others to have a look.

Nothing ventured.

Nothing gained.

Another options is to kidnap the sports editors of the main tabloids, and brainwash them that Motorsport is more important to the planet than football. They then cover everything from F1 to club Autotests and the stands will fill on their own as their rags in turn brainwash the masses.

Once again... look - over there - a pig with wings.....

Rob.

[Al Weyman]

thats very true. it is the competitors choice!

Only if they have a championship you want to run in and for me they dont!

[kelvin88]

i know Al, the thing is if you look at british motorsport across the board the BRSCC are pricing people out of it. the competitors are voting with their feet. if you wanna race that bad, you can BUILD a stock hatch for what you save in entry fees! Its not for everyone though. I, for example, refuse to race anything slower than my tow vehicle! What i dont understand is what this money is going to. And as their grid numbers fall the answer seems to lie in raising entry fee at a time when people just cant afford it. And when we compare prices we are not talking £20 £30 pounds in some cases the BRSCC are charging twice what the 750mc are! If you did that in your shop, Al,charging double your competitors, you wouldnt be there long would you? and if it was your "overheads" causing it,you would have to move!