IMSA The pro-speech dedicated IMSA BoP to let the other threads be free!

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks

That's the same question!

That was my point!

This is why competitions like Formula One are so much better! The same minimum weight for everybody. The same fuel flow and fuel weight for all the power unit manufacturers too.

Cool. Choice.

The Acura is 1:10 off the lead, it was 1:00 back 10 laps ago, it is going backwards at a great rate of knots... That's not ridiculously close in BOP racing terms -- we expect to see cars nose to tail for the whole race, a la GTE at Le Mans, if the BOP is set correctly.

You shouldn’t expect the racing to be nose to tail for the whole race. They are long races and the natural variations in driver, tire management, set-up, conditions, fuel load, are the same order of magnitude as what we see. All the things so important in endurance racing that makes the sport what it is.

And there is the point that this isn’t trying to match lap times, just potential. You are describing that you want something more akin to success ballast type leveling of the playing field. Yet you also point out the ability to do a better job. The logic is all a bit mixed up.

LMP2 are all the same cars and yet the spread in lap times is as great.

[V8 Fireworks]

Wayne Taylor:

We knew we had no chance.

Politics?

Originally Posted by Adam43

You are describing that you want something more akin to success ballast type leveling of the playing field.

Exactly the opposite. The Acura was quick early on in 2023 and then ballasted so heavily that it was not particularly competitive anymore. The car's laptimes were slower than it was last year at the Daytona 24 hour.

There is a claim that Wayne Taylor is just politicking and if Wayne Taylor Racing had done a better job they could have won the race, but it's suspect. How are you supposed to win the race with the heaviest car?

BOP is so hard to decipher. Is the potential really the same and it is purely on poor setup and poor driving that the car was 0.4s-0.6s/lap slower on average? 20kg of ballast is more than enough to manipulate lap times by 0.4s/lap one way or the other.

Perhaps Deletraz is not the best driver, but the way the Acura fell back so quickly 10s in 25 minutes of running is concerning.

[Akrapovic]

No. Wayne (and Mr Risi) are the same - if they don't win then they tell everyone they could never have won no matter what. Wayne even forgot he had a second car in the race after the 10 ran into issues.

Wayne is just Wayne.

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

No. Wayne (and Mr Risi) are the same - if they don't win then they tell everyone they could never have won no matter what. Wayne even forgot he had a second car in the race after the 10 ran into issues.

The Acura never seemed fast at this race meeting. What was needed to have a quick car on the current BOP? Better drivers? Better setup?

Unfortunately it's easy to point the finger at 20kg or 40kg difference in minimum weight when there is a direct correlation between weight and lap time -- hence why competition categories like Formula One have a fixed minimum weight, as did LMP675 and LMP900 if I recall correctly (675kg and 900kg was precisely the minimum weight?).

Originally Posted by Adam43

The logic is all a bit mixed up.

Not at all. The WTR Acura came second last year with a 20kg lighter car and was fast -- it was quick, it was attacking. Now it has 20kg more on it, more than the competition, and is slower. Basically it was always falling behind in every single stint, especially if the Cadillac and Porsche were pushing.

Weight directly affects the performance of a racing car. The 0.6s/lap deficit would almost certainly be less with less penalty weight.

[Akrapovic]

Shank has won with the Acura much more than Wayne has - with or without the tyre pressure messing up. I’d say WTR struggle more with the Acura than others did and more than they did with the Caddy.

Bop doesn’t balance teams.

[Adam43]

You're right, it is easy to do that. You could point to the additional power, or higher energy allocation. Or that Porsche also managed to win the race despite the second highest weight.

You could also point to how the BoP works and how the ranges in lap time fall within a very small margin and there are other factors that are as, or more important. All that is not so easy though.

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

Shank has won with the Acura much more than Wayne has - with or without the tyre pressure messing up. I’d say WTR struggle more with the Acura than others did and more than they did with the Caddy.

Certainly! Shank seems to be the more competitive team.

HRC will be very disappointed that they did not look to be in a position to win the Daytona 24 hour at any point. Of course the technical problem with the #10 car is unacceptable and they will look to identify and eliminate that problem.

Originally Posted by Adam43

You could also point to how the BoP works and how the ranges in lap time fall within a very small margin and there are other factors that are as, or more important. All that is not so easy though.

Exactly! No wonder sportscar racing is immensely frustrating compared to say World Rally Championship, where you have a tight set of rules and a great competition.

Not so much GT3, BoP is necessary there, but it should not be necessary for prototypes that already are homologated with similar power and similar downforce and drag.

By your estimation, what could MSR and/or HRC have done to have a faster car in the 2024 Rolex 24 Hours?

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

Shank has won with the Acura much more than Wayne has - with or without the tyre pressure messing up. I’d say WTR struggle more with the Acura than others did and more than they did with the Caddy.

Bop doesn’t balance teams.

I haven't looked in detail at the range, but the fastest lap for WTR was 0.3s slower than Shank last year at Daytona. For instance. With the same car.

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks

By your estimation, what could MSR and/or HRC have done to have a faster car in the 2024 Rolex 24 Hours?

I don't know! Although that is irrelevant. It's clear we aren't discussing we are just trying to win the internet. I will bow out. It is yours.

I can see that the competition is really tight and the variation in performance is low. My point is that I can see the uncertainty, yet you are certain. As by the rules of the internet certainty wins.

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by Adam43

I haven't looked in detail at the range, but the fastest lap for WTR was 0.3s slower than Shank last year at Daytona. For instance. With the same car.

For the same car with -20kg minimum weight. What is +20kg worth per lap of Daytona Road Circuit for an LMDh class car?

Originally Posted by Adam43

My point is that I can see the uncertainty, yet you are certain.

I am not certain on anything. I'm just saying that f=ma and weight directly affects lap time, that's a fact. Adding more weight to a racing car makes it slower.

Allowing some cars to be lighter than others should be less necessary in prototype racing, since they are fundamentally similar prototypes, which under the two LMH and LMDh rulesets have aero kits homologated to a very small variance of drag and downforce (so aero performance is not a significant competition factor any more either), and they are not based on wildly different road cars unlike the GT3 class.

The problem with balance-of-performance is that is unclear if Honda Racing Corporation not being able to repeat their victory is their own fault or not. That they built a car with a nice, compact efficient engine is great but means little now. This is not good for sport.

This is very different to the pure competition in MotoGP, where it is clear as day that the RC213V's lack of competitiveness is 100% Honda Racing Corporation's fault.

[Akrapovic]

Seems to me that WTR finished where you’d expect WTR to finish given their track record with that car. The 10 had issues and the 40 still beat a bunch of Porsches despite being the weaker car.

There’s no story here. Wayne is just being Wayne. If Risi hadn’t won we’d get an identical statement from them. But because he was leading he said the bop was great this year.

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks

What is +20kg worth per lap of Daytona Road Circuit?

A few 10ths probably! But I see why we have a problem here - this is irrelevant! As is the exact impact of the power advantage they have.

I am not certain on anything. I'm just saying that f=ma and weight directly affects lap time, that's a fact. Adding more weight to a racing car makes it slower.

I am fully aware of the mechanics behind it. Physics hasn't past me by! It just you've missed the point of how it works.

Allowing some cars to be lighter than others should be less necessary in prototype racing, since they are fundamentally similar prototypes, which under the two LMH and LMDh rulesets have aero kits homologated to a very small variance of drag and downforce (so aero performance is not a significant competition factor any more either), and they are not based on wildly different road cars unlike the GT3 class.

They are all build within a range. There are small differences, so you need small adjustments.

These small adjustments are to compensate for the small imperfections in the earlier homologation process. It'll never be perfect, but it also is very good and close.

Blast, I have double lost the internet as I said I would bow out and didn't!

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by Adam43

A few 10ths probably! But I see why we have a problem here - this is irrelevant!

How is it irrelevant?

Races are won and lost on fine margins.

Originally Posted by Adam43

These small adjustments are to compensate for the small imperfections in the earlier homologation process. It'll never be perfect, but it also is very good and close.

We'll have to disagree on balance-of-performance being "very good"!

IMO classes without BoP are much better. I would have suggested LMP racing in both WEC and IMSA take on LMP2 rules, just with multiple 4.0 V8 engines and multiple chassis (Ferrari, Toyota etc). So any privateer can buy the homologated works engines and works chassis for a low fixed price. By folding the two classes together, you could have a single LMP class too.

If that means 40x Ferrari-Ferrari instead of 25x Oreca-Gibson, that is totally fine... It would still deliver an incredible race IMO.

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks

How is it irrelevant?

Races are won and lost on fine margins.

Obviously you can't get away from physics. I thought I might need to change it because you wouldn't consider it in the whole of what I said.

But it is irrelevant to consider it is only down to this. I explained how it fits in the whole lower down. The bit you didn't quote.

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks

IMO classes without BoP are much better.

I get this, but that's a different thing. What are we arguing now?

In an ideal world you would have that, but we don't have that and the race organisers have chosen a different pragmatic route to still maintain the important things that make endurance racing what it is - variety.

You seem to be arguing that this is only a success if it is perfect and nose to tail for 24 hours. And then that we shouldn't have it at all.

I would have suggested LMP racing in both WEC and IMSA take on LMP2 rules, just with multiple 4.0 V8 engines and multiple chassis (Ferrari, Toyota etc). So any privateer can buy the homologated works engines and works chassis for a low fixed price. By folding the two classes together, you could have a single LMP class too.

If that means 40x Ferrari-Ferrari instead of 25x Oreca-Gibson, that is totally fine... It would still deliver an incredible race IMO.

They've decide to avoid this end conclusion. Fine. There are other areas of the sport you can see that. So we're groovy.

[broadrun96]

Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks

How is it irrelevant?

Races are won and lost on fine margins.




We'll have to disagree on balance-of-performance being "very good"!

IMO classes without BoP are much better. I would have suggested LMP racing in both WEC and IMSA take on LMP2 rules, just with multiple 4.0 V8 engines and multiple chassis (Ferrari, Toyota etc). So any privateer can buy the homologated works engines and works chassis for a low fixed price. By folding the two classes together, you could have a single LMP class too.

If that means 40x Ferrari-Ferrari instead of 25x Oreca-Gibson, that is totally fine... It would still deliver an incredible race IMO.

You don't pay attention at all to what you write do you?

You're LITERALLY describing GTP and how it works to say that's better. And no, a field of exactly the same cars draws no fans. I don't see any one along the fences for Carrera Cup or Super Trofeo. They're, for the most part, identical cars. Options are basically year and whether you upgrade or not, otherwise plenty of cars but people actively leave the fences for the races at Petit. Ok, there is one, MX-5 does draw people over but that's as much contact and positional fighting I would argue than draw to the spec of the series

[PhilipR]

I think BOP was ok this time. All seem to have been in the ballpark in GTP and GT

Cadillac seemed to have had a small advantage in warmer conditions but this is not something that can be BOPed out. As for the Acura, it is hard to tell as even if they did not have the pace, the car that finished is the new car with new drivers and crew. Would have been interesting to see where the 10 would have been pace wise by the end if they did not retire.

GT seemed alright BOP wise again, it seemed like all had a spell at the front at certain times and there were no 2 seconds a lap slower cars like Porsche last year.

[NaBUru38]

Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks

No wonder sportscar racing is immensely frustrating compared to say World Rally Championship, where you have a tight set of rules and a great competition.

Er, just 8 Rally1 cars at Monte Carlo last weekend...

[flatlandsman]

For me it looked like Acura were a little off BOP wise, as were Porsche in GT, Ferrari clearly had a bit of an advantage as many of their cars were on the pace including ones that are usually not quick like CetilaR!

Lambo, Aston and Merc seemed a little off but not much, Corvette, BMW seemed very quick as did Ferrari. Lexus hard to judge as they know that thing so well they can judge pace probably betetr than any other team and car combo.

Ford hard to judge as new car and Acura, well again very quick but as usual very erratic

[Adam43]

They were a little off pace wise, but were they a little off BoP wise? I can’t tell, partly because it is so close.

Or to try and get across what I mean if JDC were the only Porsche team at Daytona would you think that Porsche were a little off BoP wise?

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by NaBUru38

Er, just 8 Rally1 cars at Monte Carlo last weekend...

There were only 10 GTP cars in the Daytona 24 hours???

Originally Posted by Adam43

You seem to be arguing that this is only a success if it is perfect and nose to tail for 24 hours. And then that we shouldn't have it at all.

Absolutely. BOP is terrible in prototype racing.

[broadrun96]

Yup, cause the non BoP series lasted how long again? Yeah, I'll sit back here and wait for reality to catch up with some of yall. Or, you could make your own series and get some tobacco companies on board or maybe sports gambling so you have unlimited funds to make sure they can spend and spend and spend.

The rest of us will enjoy the racing that modern racing environment allows, we like our face with its nose attached

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks

Absolutely. BOP is terrible in prototype racing.

Got it. You don’t like it.

In an ideal world I don’t think anyone wants it. However this is a solution for the real world.

What it does give you is some of the ideal. The ability to still benefit from a good solution., the ability to see all those things that makes you good at endurance racing. A lot of the technical challenge and sporting challenge that you see if you are into the sport.
What confused me is you then argued the solution needed to get rid of everything and have them all with the sale result. Thus removing all the things you want!

[NaBUru38]

Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks

There were only 10 GTP cars in the Daytona 24 hours???

Yes, plus 19 at the FIA WEC.

[Adam43]

Things have kind of converged a bit.

Lambo in the middle in terms of weight, power and energy.

Latest IMSA GTP BoP:

Weight (Kg)

-- Bulletin --	--- Track ---	Acura	BMW	Cadillac	Lamborghini	Porsche
12/1/2023	ROAR	1030	1030	1030		1030
17/1/2023	Daytona 24	1030	1030	1030		1030
8/2/2023	Sebrign Test	1030	1030	1030		1030
13/3/2023	Sebring Race	1054	1040	1038		1048
31/3/2023	Long Beach	1045	1036	1031		1036
4/5/2023	Laguna Seca	1049	1031	1030		1038
4/6/2023	Watkins Glen	1053	1038	1037		1043
29/6/2023	Canadian Tire Motorsports Park	1046	1031	1030		1037
21/7/2023	Indy Test	1046	1031	1030		1037
27/7/2023	Road America	1044	1030	1030		1036
7/9/2023	Indy	1047	1031	1030		1037
7/9/2023	Road Atlanta	1046	1031	1030		1037
10/1/2024	ROAR	1072	1031	1030		1051
24/1/2024	Daytona 24	1072	1031	1030		1051
7/3/2024	Sebring	1055	1030	1060	1044	1049
		ARX-06	M Hybrid V8	V-LMDh	SC63	963

Energy Allocation (MJ)

-- Bulletin --	--- Track ---	Acura	BMW	Cadillac	Lamborghini	Porsche
12/1/2023	ROAR	920	920	920		920
17/1/2023	Daytona 24	920	920	920		920
8/2/2023	Sebrign Test	930	930	930		930
13/3/2023	Sebring Race	917	905	905		912
31/3/2023	Long Beach	914	907	903		907
4/5/2023	Laguna Seca	915	902	902		907
4/6/2023	Watkins Glen	917	905	905		909
29/6/2023	Canadian Tire Motorsports Park	914	902	903		907
21/7/2023	Indy Test	914	902	903		907
27/7/2023	Road America	915	904	904		908
7/9/2023	Indy	917	902	902		907
7/9/2023	Road Atlanta	915	903	903		907
10/1/2024	ROAR	920	908	902		917
24/1/2024	Daytona 24	920	908	902		917
7/3/2024	Sebring	910	898	918	908	904
		ARX-06	M Hybrid V8	V-LMDh	SC63	963

Max Power (kW)

-- Bulletin --	--- Track ---	Acura	BMW	Cadillac	Lamborghini	Porsche
12/1/2023	ROAR	500	500	500		500
17/1/2023	Daytona 24	500	500	500		500
8/2/2023	Sebrign Test	520	520	520		520
13/3/2023	Sebring Race	520	513	513		517
31/3/2023	Long Beach	520	515	513		515
4/5/2023	Laguna Seca	520	512	511		514
4/6/2023	Watkins Glen	520	513	513		515
29/6/2023	Canadian Tire Motorsports Park	520	513	513		515
21/7/2023	Indy Test	520	513	513		515
27/7/2023	Road America	520	513	513		515
7/9/2023	Indy	520	512	512		514
7/9/2023	Road Atlanta	520	513	513		515
10/1/2024	ROAR	520	514	510		519
24/1/2024	Daytona 24	520	514	510		519
7/3/2024	Sebring	512	506	520	513	508
		ARX-06	M Hybrid V8	V-LMDh	SC63	963

Stint Energy Replenishment Rate (MJ/s)

-- Bulletin --	--- Track ---	Acura	BMW	Cadillac	Lamborghini	Porsche
12/1/2023	ROAR	23	23	23		23
17/1/2023	Daytona 24	23	23	23		23
8/2/2023	Sebrign Test	23.25	23.25	23.25		23.25
13/3/2023	Sebring Race	22.925	22.625	22.625		22.8
31/3/2023	Long Beach	22.85	22.675	22.575		22.675
4/5/2023	Laguna Seca	22.875	22.55	22.55		22675
4/6/2023	Watkins Glen	22925	22.625	22.625		22.725
29/6/2023	Canadian Tire Motorsports Park	22.85	22.55	22.575		22.675
21/7/2023	Indy Test	22.85	22.55	22.575		22.675
27/7/2023	Road America	22.875	22.6	22.6		22.7
7/9/2023	Indy	22.925	22.55	22.55		22.675
7/9/2023	Road Atlanta	22.875	22.575	22.575		22.675
10/1/2024	ROAR	23	22.7	22.55		22.925
24/1/2024	Daytona 24	23	22.7	22.55		22.925
7/3/2024	Sebring	22.75	22.45	22.95	22.7	22.6
		ARX-06	M Hybrid V8	V-LMDh	SC63	963

Not really BoP, but for the record:
Nmax (rpm)

-- Bulletin --	--- Track ---	Acura	BMW	Cadillac	Lamborghini	Porsche
12/1/2023	ROAR	9512	8000	8800		8158
17/1/2023	Daytona 24	9512	8000	8800		8158
8/2/2023	Sebrign Test	9512	8000	8800		8158
13/3/2023	Sebring Race	9512	8000	8800		8158
31/3/2023	Long Beach	9512	8000	8800		8158
4/5/2023	Laguna Seca	9512	8000	8800		8158
4/6/2023	Watkins Glen	9512	8000	8800		8158
29/6/2023	Canadian Tire Motorsports Park	9512	8000	8800		8158
21/7/2023	Indy Test	9512	8000	8800		8158
27/7/2023	Road America	9512	8000	8800		8158
7/9/2023	Indy	9512	8000	8800		8158
7/9/2023	Road Atlanta	9512	8000	8800		8158
10/1/2024	ROAR	9512	8000	8800		8158
24/1/2024	Daytona 24	9512	8000	8800		8158
7/3/2024	Sebring
		ARX-06	M Hybrid V8	V-LMDh	SC63	963