[Official] Hungarian Grand Prix 2023: Grand Prix Weekend Thread - Round 12 of 23

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

Really seems like perception is winning out over facts in Perez case.

well it is a fairly uneventful season and the return of DR and Perez' multiple minor mistakes of late has naturally filled the vacuum.

perception is a powerful thing and how these two drivers will now have to deal with that is in and of itself a compelling story line even if it is somewhat manufactured?

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

Really seems like perception is winning out over facts in Perez case.

Sadly, perception can be reality at times.

Richard

[peebee2]

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

Hopefully it can be replaced? I wonder if they made duplicates "just in case" (i.e. damaged in transit).

Someone at the track said apparently they are €40,000 each or something and take months to make!

So I doubt they have a spare, although I'm sure they make pre-make duplicates for the teams to (choose to) buy...

Maybe MV has some superglue in his caravan?

[TrapezeArtist]

Originally Posted by Born Racer

Probably the most entertaining part of the race was Norris breaking the winner's trophy. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=c7FqP7...cyB0cm9waHk%3D Maybe Norris should be given a penalty and Veratappen disqualified as he no longer has a trophy. Pérez for the win.

When Lewis was doing all his winning he had this thing of throwing his trophy up in the air. I was always waiting for the day when he failed to catch it. Now it's down to Lando to do the damage. (The trophy did look to be extremely fragile though.)

[TrapezeArtist]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

The flip argument is that despite having rough races, Perez has extended his gap in the championship to third place quite comfortably recently. Statistically, he is the best number 2 driver Red Bull has ever had, and he keeps extending this statistic even on bad weekends.

He's 110 points behind though, and we're hardly halfway through the season. He's only in second because all the other front-runners have a few good races when their car is second-best and then slip back when their car is back in the mid-field. If there were consistent second and third-best cars, Perez would be nowhere.

[Richard C]

https://m4sport.hu/forma-1/cikk/2023...elmi-trofeajat

Report from Hungarian sports site that they have a duplicate (or precursor to create duplicate) and Max will get a replacement in a few weeks. Someone pointed out somewhere that the broken one is probably more valuable given it's backstory!

Richard

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by TrapezeArtist

He's 110 points behind though, and we're hardly halfway through the season. He's only in second because all the other front-runners have a few good races when their car is second-best and then slip back when their car is back in the mid-field. If there were consistent second and third-best cars, Perez would be nowhere.

But there aren't consistent second and third best cars, and Perez is second in the championship. Despite a poor run of races, he is extending his gap to third place. Which means, as it currently stands, he is poised to achieve the best result ever as a RBR number 2 - and get a second place in the championship. RBR have never had a 1-2 WDC. Yet here they are, about to get their best result ever, and we're all saying "yeah but". It's all well and good saying "if things were different" - they aren't different.

This is what I mean about perception being more important than fact.

[chillibowl]

is securing a 1-2 in the WDC really a priority for RBR? on the list of things they care about, this particular accolade has never seemed to feature highly?

could easily see them achieving it this year and Dr. Death still sacking Perez.

[fourWheelDrift]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

is securing a 1-2 in the WDC really a priority for RBR? on the list of things they care about, this particular accolade has never seemed to feature highly?

could easily see them achieving it this year and Dr. Death still sacking Perez.

However even if it's not their top priority they will want to achieve it so Sergio's drive is absolutely safe until it's mathematically impossible for anyone to take second off him.

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by fourWheelDrift

... they will want to achieve it...

but why tho? its not like it comes with extra money or resources.

bragging rights i suppose?

edit...just wanted to add that im not saying this from either a pro DR/anti Perez point of view...more so i just think RBR is an incredibly ruthless operator when it comes to their driver program.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

but why tho? its not like it comes with extra money or resources.

bragging rights i suppose?

edit...just wanted to add that im not saying this from either a pro DR/anti Perez point of view...more so i just think RBR is an incredibly ruthless operator when it comes to their driver program.

There is the prestige that comes from winning the WDC, having the runner up and the WCC. Even Dr. Helmut Marko would pleased if RBR achieved that.

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

is securing a 1-2 in the WDC really a priority for RBR? on the list of things they care about, this particular accolade has never seemed to feature highly?

could easily see them achieving it this year and Dr. Death still sacking Perez.

Well they're going to win both titles, so it's literally all there is left to achieve.

Yes Dr Death is coming for Perez. But if he finishes second then they're sacking him to get someone to do the exact same thing - finish second.

[Born Racer]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

But there aren't consistent second and third best cars, and Perez is second in the championship. Despite a poor run of races, he is extending his gap to third place. Which means, as it currently stands, he is poised to achieve the best result ever as a RBR number 2 - and get a second place in the championship. RBR have never had a 1-2 WDC. Yet here they are, about to get their best result ever, and we're all saying "yeah but". It's all well and good saying "if things were different" - they aren't different.

This is what I mean about perception being more important than fact.

I'm not sure I follow everything here. I agree about perception. So much is perception. I'm probably talking a lot of rubbish and we all are from time to time. But I think Pérez is just not getting the results a number 2 should in that car, i.e. more second places. What's more, the fact there is not a consistent number 2 team is all the more reason for Pérez to be beating whoever is in third, because they're taking points off each other.

[bjohnsonsmith]

So far Perez has 171 points and is second in the WDC, compared to the same stage in 2022, when he had 151 points and was third place in the WDC. Last year, he had five second places and the win at Monaco but he also had two retirements. This year he has only had two second places but he has two wins and a couple of third places. His worst result was 16th at Monaco.

[Teretonga]

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

Some of the comments on that video.


I agree with what you are saying. The problem is... even if logically he is getting it done, he has to be irritating RBR. I think he is doing a great job of racing through the field and making some aggressive and great passes. But at the same time, can you be the hero if you are fixing the disaster that is of your own creation? Hopefully he settles down. I don't think he ever was in the running to beat Max, but as you point out, he is getting it done and surviving the pressure cooker that is RBR and always being measured against Max.

Richard

The highlighted comment is simply a point I want to make about this issue of Perez.

By the way Born Racer, this is not aimed at you. It is my opinion about a bigger issue concerning the way people speak and criticize drivers.

He is a very good driver, drove well for years at FI/Racing Point and scored a number of good points scoring seasons for the team.

At Red Bull he's scored well. one of the best No.2 's they ever had.
Its not Red Bull who is irritated.

Its a fan base that is incredibly toxic and the media obviously pick on any weakness or stumble by any driver in any circumstance because it gets them clicks, sells advertising and justifies their existence but is an incredibly abusive way to speak about any human being.

As for calling themselves 'fans'.... I always thought a fan was someone who loved the sport and the people in it and had an appreciation for the ability and effort the people involved in the sport put into it.

But seeming;y that is not the case.

I had a look at the qualifying times for Hungary. The fastest time in 2022 was 1.16.214 by Max. Hamilton got this years fastest in 1.16.609.

But in Q1 the slowest time was 1.19.248 (Sargeant). Perez was 1 min.17.045.
Max won the race in 1 hour 38 minutes 8.634 seconds total elapsed time, 5888.634 seconds, an average lap of 1min 24.12334 seconds. Thats over 4 seconds a lap slower than Sargeant's Q1 time.

If you deduct a minute from losses due to pit stops that is still 1 min 23.2662, almost 4 full seconds slower than Sargeant's q1 time.
If Sargeant had driven that time plus a minute for his pit stops he would have finished over 273 seconds ahead of Max or 3.25 laps ahead, and that is allowing for pitstops.

My point is that the coverage of Perez failing to do his job is simply media generated concern of no real value. The hardest thing to do in F1 is overtake and the races where Perez has not got into Q3 and has still pushed through to points scoring finishes where is extends his lead over the drivers beind him in the standings for the championship.

Max is never judged or questioned on his progress through lapped traffic, but Perez can be crucified for his ability to overtake or not overtake when he has to fight for every place.
The leader gets a free ride because traffic gives way to him.

That is why I regard so much of the toxic comment about drivers as abuse.
Ricciardo got a bath full last year. Bottas got a heap when at Mercedes.
IN F1 the car is at least 50% of the difference in lap times between makes.
Max is quick, Perez is not at that level but he is still quicker than half the drivers in the field.
We know this from his performances before RBR.

Stroll gets heaps to, simply because he is his father's son and his father has helped is career.
Yet in my days in karting and officiating how many parents sacrificed to give their sons a leg up in motorsport.
Most of them.

That is why the sport and the microscopic analysis of everything is not doing the sport a great deal of service. It's too toxic, too acidic to be helpful and having the ability to crucify drivers when so few of their critics could step into a cockpit and drive to anything approaching that standard is just a nonsense.

Rant over.

[peterelise]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

But there aren't consistent second and third best cars, and Perez is second in the championship. Despite a poor run of races, he is extending his gap to third place. Which means, as it currently stands, he is poised to achieve the best result ever as a RBR number 2 - and get a second place in the championship. RBR have never had a 1-2 WDC. Yet here they are, about to get their best result ever, and we're all saying "yeah but". It's all well and good saying "if things were different" - they aren't different.

This is what I mean about perception being more important than fact.

Getting a 1st and 2nd is about confirming that the car the team built was dominant that season. Any suggestion that Perez finishing 2nd this year means he is the best number 2 RBR has ever had, or is even doing a decent job, is nonsense.

In 2010 Seb wins and Webber is 3rd but is anyone seriously going to suggest Perez is doing a better job than Webber did that year? If you want another example, consider Max and Daniel’s time together; Daniel finishes ahead in their first full season together (2017) and somehow Perez is currently doing a better job than Max did finishing 6th (168 points) to Daniel’s 5th (200 points).

Just highlighting that a simple statement that Perez is going to give them their first 1,2 in no way confirms he is doing a good job. There are many more arguments to confirm he is in fact doing a terrible job.

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by Teretonga

The highlighted comment is simply a point I want to make about this issue of Perez.

Originally Posted by Teretonga

Its not Red Bull who is irritated.

I get the point you are making. Yes, F1 and fans in particular can be toxic.

As to posts here. We have examples of both overly negative and positive commentary on teams and drivers. But that doesn't mean all critical comments are toxic.

Perez right now is a bit of a walking contradiction. On one hand he is a firm second in the championship. You could say that RBR couldn't ask for more. On the other hand there seems to be recurring drama with respect to his driving. Be it on track conflicts with Max or his recent qualifying woes, including damaging the car.

Now, there has been and always will be teammate drama. But at the end of the day, can RBR ask more from him? Yes they can. And we know RBR is a pressure cooker with high expectations. That doesn't mean we should be overly down on him or that RBR is ready to replace him. So when I say that RBR is "irritated" with him, it is just that. He is doing some sub-optimal things that they can't be happy about it and wish he would stop. At the same time, I think they are overall happy with him. I think much of this "Daniel is going to replace Perez" is just wishful thinking. I think Daniel at AT is more about AT issues and Red Bull driver development program than some type of public target on Perez's back. I can however, imagine at some level it is to motivate Perez to do better, but not to replace him.

While Helmut Marko is quick with critical comments, he seems to be generally positive with respect to Perez. But you can also find quotes from him around topics such as Perez should stop trying to beat Max, should settle down, etc. I put that into the "irritated" category.

Richard

[Teretonga]

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

I get the point you are making. Yes, F1 and fans in particular can be toxic.

As to posts here. We have examples of both overly negative and positive commentary on teams and drivers. But that doesn't mean all critical comments are toxic.

Perez right now is a bit of a walking contradiction. On one hand he is a firm second in the championship. You could say that RBR couldn't ask for more. On the other hand there seems to be recurring drama with respect to his driving. Be it on track conflicts with Max or his recent qualifying woes, including damaging the car.

Now, there has been and always will be teammate drama. But at the end of the day, can RBR ask more from him? Yes they can. And we know RBR is a pressure cooker with high expectations. That doesn't mean we should be overly down on him or that RBR is ready to replace him. So when I say that RBR is "irritated" with him, it is just that. He is doing some sub-optimal things that they can't be happy about it and wish he would stop. At the same time, I think they are overall happy with him. I think much of this "Daniel is going to replace Perez" is just wishful thinking. I think Daniel at AT is more about AT issues and Red Bull driver development program than some type of public target on Perez's back. I can however, imagine at some level it is to motivate Perez to do better, but not to replace him.

While Helmut Marko is quick with critical comments, he seems to be generally positive with respect to Perez. But you can also find quotes from him around topics such as Perez should stop trying to beat Max, should settle down, etc. I put that into the "irritated" category.

Richard

My take on the performance issue is a little different.
Perez won at Jeddah, then again at Azerbaijan.
Media started ramping up the notion of a challenge to Max from within the team and Jos allegedly snubbed Perez. After those performance things went off the boil for Perez.

So, what was going on?
I don't believe the team principals were doing anything Mickey Mouse like, so there's no question of deliberate things from the management, but clearly something was going on that created an uncomfortable Perez with respect to his performance.
Then when all that happened it was obvious to the media that Perez wasn't going to create a Prost Senna type story for the season so when he made mistakes they still wrote about him, but everything did become toxic for Perez. Not pleasant.

Hungary was the first step out of the cesspit for Perez (a cesspit not of his making).
Getting the F1 driver of the day for his progress and overtaking was nice recognition.
Before qualifying in Hungary I remarked to a friend that I would love to see Perez actually win the race from wherever he started. Not because he is a favorite (he's not) but I was just fed up with the media garbage just as I was about Bottas, Ricciardo, Stroll, De Vries etc...

[Alan52]

Originally Posted by peterelise

Getting a 1st and 2nd is about confirming that the car the team built was dominant that season. Any suggestion that Perez finishing 2nd this year means he is the best number 2 RBR has ever had, or is even doing a decent job, is nonsense.

In 2010 Seb wins and Webber is 3rd but is anyone seriously going to suggest Perez is doing a better job than Webber did that year? If you want another example, consider Max and Daniel’s time together; Daniel finishes ahead in their first full season together (2017) and somehow Perez is currently doing a better job than Max did finishing 6th (168 points) to Daniel’s 5th (200 points).

Just highlighting that a simple statement that Perez is going to give them their first 1,2 in no way confirms he is doing a good job. There are many more arguments to confirm he is in fact doing a terrible job.

For a start you are making the assumption that Sebastian was as good as Max is in 2023.Probably a minority opinion.
Also Max was still in learning phase in 2017.If you want to see where that was going look at second half of 2018 where the gap between Max and Dan was just as big as the gap is today between Max and Checo.
I doubt Checo is the best #2 RBR have ever had but all they need is someone solid who won’t make waves.If there is anyone in the field at Max’s level they wouldn’t want him there.Any Prost v Senna situation will destabilise a team and can’t last anyway.
Checo is probably the best #2 RBR could have at the moment.

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by peterelise

Getting a 1st and 2nd is about confirming that the car the team built was dominant that season. Any suggestion that Perez finishing 2nd this year means he is the best number 2 RBR has ever had, or is even doing a decent job, is nonsense.

In 2010 Seb wins and Webber is 3rd but is anyone seriously going to suggest Perez is doing a better job than Webber did that year? If you want another example, consider Max and Daniel’s time together; Daniel finishes ahead in their first full season together (2017) and somehow Perez is currently doing a better job than Max did finishing 6th (168 points) to Daniel’s 5th (200 points).

Just highlighting that a simple statement that Perez is going to give them their first 1,2 in no way confirms he is doing a good job. There are many more arguments to confirm he is in fact doing a terrible job.

I like that you're happy to name specific years but are extremely selective in how you do it. 2011 and 2013 utterly dominated to a similar level that Max is achieving right now. Webber still couldn't finish runner up. 2012, Vettel took a title and Webber finished 5th.

Perez is on track to be statistically the best number 2 Red Bull have ever had, and give them a 1-2 in a championship. Something they've never ever done, but their competitors have.

[Born Racer]

That's a good post, Teretonga, about the toxicity. You often see that on social media and, of course, some stuff is nothing short of vitriolic. Most true media tends to be, at worst, sensationalist, at least.

I figure that on the forum we are analytical to the nth degree, but with little data. So we're all universally or almost universally (I certainly am), dare I say it, underinformed and enthusiastic. That sometimes creates views which may seem a bit extreme and are always within the realms of our expectation and our endless comparisons. For instance, you mention somewhere that most of us would not be capable of doing anything near what most of them do. That is absolutely certain, but we know this and I would assume when someone here calls an F1 driver mediocre for example, they mean exceptional, but mediocre in the context of F1. When we say someone is underperforming, it's looking at comparisons with other teams, other drivers, other drivers who could be driving that car, it's looking at the mistakes they're making, it's seeing the constant menace of a potential replacement - I guess Pérez is under the microscope because he has what is statistically one of the best card ever during a season and yet he seems to be making hard work of it.

[Born Racer]

Originally Posted by Alan52

For a start you are making the assumption that Sebastian was as good as Max is in 2023.Probably a minority opinion.
Also Max was still in learning phase in 2017.If you want to see where that was going look at second half of 2018 where the gap between Max and Dan was just as big as the gap is today between Max and Checo.
I doubt Checo is the best #2 RBR have ever had but all they need is someone solid who won’t make waves.If there is anyone in the field at Max’s level they wouldn’t want him there.Any Prost v Senna situation will destabilise a team and can’t last anyway.
Checo is probably the best #2 RBR could have at the moment.

If he comes in in second in the championship, his seat will probably be safe, because it's easier for the team to have a clear number 1 in Veratappen and a decent number 2. Ricciardo may or may not be quicker than Pérez, but if he is, as long as Pérez's quick is enough for second in the best car, it would be better for Red Bull to stick with their current pairing. In the interests of frankness, I may have posted last week that Red Bull are trying out Ricciardo to audition him potentially for the RB seat or to keep Checo on his toes, so I may be contradicting myself, but I'm just willing to give another example about my ignorance. I don't work in the paddock or for a team.

I would love to know what Verstappen's 'reasons' for not letting Pérez by were in Brazil last year. That was always curious.

[E.B]

Originally Posted by Born Racer

I would love to know what Verstappen's 'reasons' for not letting Pérez by were in Brazil last year. That was always curious.

That IIRC stemmed from Max being upset with Perez over something that happened at Monaco earlier in the year. I am fairly sure it was Sergio who caused a last minute in Q3 red flag when he had a spin before the tunnel. Sainz immediately behind Sergio ran into him. The red ruined Max's final qualifying lap that he was lapping 'purple' on and likely to have secured pole.... in the end Max was left down in 4th on the grid, behind the two Ferraris and Sergio.

Brazil was payback by Max.

[peebee2]

Originally Posted by Born Racer

I would love to know what Verstappen's 'reasons' for not letting Pérez by were in Brazil last year. That was always curious.

Because Checo crashed deliberately in Monaco qually to keep Max behind him on the grid. Showed up straightaway in the data.

[Teretonga]

Originally Posted by Born Racer

That's a good post, Teretonga, about the toxicity. You often see that on social media and, of course, some stuff is nothing short of vitriolic. Most true media tends to be, at worst, sensationalist, at least.

I figure that on the forum we are analytical to the nth degree, but with little data. So we're all universally or almost universally (I certainly am), dare I say it, underinformed and enthusiastic. That sometimes creates views which may seem a bit extreme and are always within the realms of our expectation and our endless comparisons. For instance, you mention somewhere that most of us would not be capable of doing anything near what most of them do. That is absolutely certain, but we know this and I would assume when someone here calls an F1 driver mediocre for example, they mean exceptional, but mediocre in the context of F1. When we say someone is underperforming, it's looking at comparisons with other teams, other drivers, other drivers who could be driving that car, it's looking at the mistakes they're making, it's seeing the constant menace of a potential replacement - I guess Pérez is under the microscope because he has what is statistically one of the best card ever during a season and yet he seems to be making hard work of it.

Agreed.