How many years does Champcar have left?

[Craig]

Frustrated. Confused. Exasperated. Bored.

There really shouldn't be a 'side' to take. That is why the two series are in such a dire mess. It matters not one toss who is to blame - for what it's worth, they're both as bad as each other - but they have to sort it out else... well, like I say, I'm bored. If they can't see it for themselves there is no hope. Time to open your eyes, guys.

[gttouring]

champ car kinda has blown it.
asking too much money for support cards and such and the schedule stinks
go euro go asia? what?! it isn't working-
why not align with people who would care- like Speed TC/GT fans and ALMS and not treat ALMS like losers- they are benefitting from this split and champcar management bumbling for a while
they should have kept the small and large ovals and show up Indy..
and why not an equivalent type formula for Indy?
I love champcar and the litelle turbo V8's but how they screwd this up i'll never know

[Tony Clifton]

Originally Posted by Craig

I think most people are suitably bored by now, John. The bitterness of what has happened in the past is downright tedious and turns people off. That's why no one outside the die hards cares two tosses about either Champcar or IRL these days. Until people on this board can see the bigger picture then things are not going to be any better. Same with the organisers. If they persist in going in their own directions for their own petty reasons then both series are dead. Period.

I have seen the big picture for quite a while. BOTH series are dying, even if one series went away there would not be some huge sudden upswing in open wheel racing.

And absolutely correct, if they continue on this path BOTH series will be gone.

[Roninho]

I havn't read all the posts, but here's my take:

It costs a lot of money to run a serie like champcar. With no serious sponsorship, paying for tv, money-losing events, subsidizing cars, and simply no way out of this slimp (that i can see anyway) i feel that champcar in this form is doomed.

Only solutions i can think of are scenario's where CC finds some major firms backing up the series, like Renault is doing with the World series by Renault: Hire 8 to 10 tracks in the US, stage a race, use your dealers to promote the event and give away tickets. Or drop you way to expensive current formula and go for an upgraded version of Atlantics with 3 different engine makes running for max. $ 1 million a season and try to find 3 manufacturers willing to badge the engines and back the series.

[Roninho]

Originally Posted by Tony Clifton

Article last year in the Wall Street Journal was about how the A1GP series is financially dying.

Maybe the series has changed for the better.

It would be good to see a series grow rather than die.

They have attracted major backing from RAB capital, and are secure for the next couple of years. They also attracted Ferrari to supply the cars+engines and that is very good for the commercial side of the serie.

I do feel there are many flaws in the concept (the 'world cup of motorsports' sounds nice, but imho that's Jeff Gordon vs Michael Schumacher vs Sebastian Loeb. Not Jonathan Summerton vs Michael Ammermuller vs Loic Duval), and also what media-presence do they have? I'm from Holland which is one of their most succesfull countries, i'm a motorsport enthousiast, and i honestly don't know when the last race was and when the next is going to be.

[Roninho]

Originally Posted by mountainstar

Absolute nonsense. tony george is funding vision racing out of his pocket as well as field fillers for indy. The irl is struggling for car count and sponsors right now outside of the top 3 teams.

The 500 is no longer the money earner it was. As far as we can tell the irl has never turned a profit. That money gets sucked up from somewhere. The fact that the league still couldn't pull it off after toyota, honda and chevy dumped hundreds of millions in and still the series is barely here. Time to give it up. Recall what the irl was started for and what the end result is and I don't think any rational person can justify what has happened over the past 15 years.

That the amigos are continually villified for trying to keep the original series alive is absurd. Who started this thing? Jeezz.

I don't disagree that indy has devalued, but the Indy500 still generates tens of millions of yearly income out of attendance and tv-fee. This is an income that keeps coming back every year and this income, the tv-ratings and the media-attention it brings is used to keep the IRL running.

I don't think the amigos are villified for trying to keep the original series alive. They are being critisized by a lot for continuing a serie that is a mere shadow of CART without any signs of improvement and which is obviously bankrolled by the owners.

I see one big similarity between the IRL and champcar and one big difference. Both owners have proven (to me at least) that they are not capable of developing a serie. The difference is that imo the IRL has a yearly revenue stream directly tied to their serie in Indy and which also relies on the IRL (where would indy be if there was no indycar-serie?), whereas champcar hasn't got a revenue-stream that is tied to their serie (apart from the owners wallet).

[mountainstar]

Champcar does have a revenue stream. Sanctioning fees. They get paid a set fee for each race. Recent info released shows that fee is as high as $2.9 million a race.

The irl has lower sanctioning fees which mostly get paid back in form of the prize fund to the teams. The quotes I've heard are around a $1 million a race and with a $1 million per race prize fund, it's easy to figure out.

It was revealed last year the irl races are time buys with the 500 getting a paid a fee by ABC. That fee just about covers the prize fund for the race.

Estimates from insiders speculate the irl has burned though about $300 million in it's existance. I'm not so sure their financial picture is all that good considering losses on F1 races, investment in moto gp, running Vision racing, etc. The fact that assets like Chicago speedway have been sold off for money, well.....

If one argues the irl is taking in boat loads of cash compared to champcar, i'd reckon their burn rate on cash is pretty steep. No one has ever been quoted as the irl actually making a significant profit. If you take in $50 mil but burn though $75 mil, regardless of the source you are still losing money.

If cash is coming from indy to support the irl, that technically is out of the "owners pocket".

[JohnSSC]

Originally Posted by Craig

I think most people are suitably bored by now, John. The bitterness of what has happened in the past is downright tedious and turns people off. That's why no one outside the die hards cares two tosses about either Champcar or IRL these days. Until people on this board can see the bigger picture then things are not going to be any better. Same with the organisers. If they persist in going in their own directions for their own petty reasons then both series are dead. Period.

My point exactly, Craig - see post #36 in this thread.

It is broke and it needs fixed. Period.

[JohnSSC]

Well, Congratulations are in order for the Successful Thread Hijacking.

Once again, we are reading another "Why the Indy 500 Ain't What She Used To Be Thread."

In regard to finances, I love the hard-hitting "recent info released" thing. I mean, why bother with a reference or link? "In my briefcase, I have the names of 150 Communists working for the Federal Government..."

Can we purlease get this back on topic or is it a requirement that any discussion of CC's inability to succeed requires yet another in-depth examination of our respective colons? 'Cause if we are going down that route, then why not ask:

How much cash did Pook burn through in one year? $50 million? I bet Gerry Forsythe papered an entire subdivision with the RPM or MPH stock certificates he bought up (whatever the heck CART called themselves on the NYSE).

Back (again) to Craig's point: It Just Doesn't Matter Anymore Who Started It. It doesn't matter who spent what or how much or when. The pooch is screwed and the racing public just doesn't care what happens to CCIRL. We could continue to argue here all day and at the end of it, the average fan really doesn't care who the heck Tristan Gommendy is or if he is faster than Franck Montagny...

[indycool]

mountainstar, I know of no "revelation" that IRL races are time buys and ABC pays for the "500." Link?

What are CC's sanction fees for Portland and co-promotes?

An asset like Chicagoland being sold off for money? If you couldn't get money for it, it wouldn't be an asset.

[mountainstar]

mountainstar, I know of no "revelation" that IRL races are time buys and ABC pays for the "500." Link? We already discussed it previously some time ago

What are CC's sanction fees for Portland and co-promotes? $1,237,000 for portland.

An asset like Chicagoland being sold off for money? If you couldn't get money for it, it wouldn't be an asset. No kidding. That's the point.

[JohnSSC]

You know, I just hit on something! I am going to refer to the top series' as: "CIRCL" - a combination of CC & IRL.

Why? Because Craig got me thinking. He is not a regular in the open wheel fora for CIRCL, but as a more causal fan of that branch he points out that these discussions are just giant circular arguments.

We have folks citing "revelations" and others of us (me included) discuss the "revelation" even when there is no basis from which we can verify that the numbers given are actually real. "I read it somewhere on the internet" is all we need to say to give something validity.

So the same claims get discussed over and over (see "Circular Argument").

In the end, both series are in bad shape. It is like discussing which patient is better off: the one on the ventilator in CICU or the one with the ventilator on standby in CICU.

CIRCL is broke, it needs to be fixed and I wish who ever could fix it, would.

[luke]

If it was 2000, it would have been much easier. CART was still in good shape, the IRL was still low key but I understand it was TG who declined the merge in the end. Perhaps he knew how badly CART's sponsors needed to race in Indy, as quite a few teams from CART did start taking part in the 500 from then onwards. But if things were sorted out then when CART was still pretty much as it was and the Indy 500 and the IRL were merged I'm sure things wouldn't be nearly as bad.
They won't merge now because the two directions are the opposite. CC is compared by many as an A1GP series and the IRL is rather CART lite of late. Whatever happens both are in poor shape and won't get better anytime soon.
My worst fears are for CC because it's chasing races irrelevant of where it needs to succeed all over the world and IMHO just bringing it down further. But we'll see what 2008 brings us for CC.

[Craig]

Originally Posted by JohnSSC

Why? Because Craig got me thinking. He is not a regular in the open wheel fora for CIRCL, but as a more causal fan

I wouldn't even class myself as a casual fan of Champcar (or IRL) these days. It used to be the best series in the world but that was then and this is now. These days I have zero interest in it. I'm tired and bored of all the pettiness and just can't be arsed with the politics for the poor showing they produce on track. I've been to three Champcar races in the past few years - all progressively worse than the last - and almost literally fell asleep in the last one I saw in Houston. Such a shame.

[JohnSSC]

But that is the point exactly, Craig! It is a shame that the showing has gotten to the point where people can't be bothered.

I am going to broach the "M" word (typically on this forum we only discuss this when a merger is being discussed publicly by the principals - gets a bit edgy discussion-wise if you are not careful!).

Anyway, even if, by magic there was a merger we would still have yet another spec series clamoring for attention. In the times you refer to there was a diversity in engines, chassis and venue. It is not like anyone needs to reinvent the wheel (no pun intended) but what we now have could not be much further than what we had if we had intended it that way from the start.

Until someone comes in and DOES something we are left with two series that provide only an occasional glimpse of "what was."

[indycool]

Does that $1.2 million come out of the pocket of CC the promoter or CC the sanctioning body?

[mountainstar]

A rumor sprung up on another forum about champcar opening the series up to the irl cars. Essentially it would not be a deal with tg as champcar would just allow irl cars to compete.

Might be an interesting way to end the war. Instead of making a deal with the generals you convert his soldiers to your side.

I had heard the same but didn't give it much creedence. It will be interesting to see if this rumor has any legs.

[Fogelhund]

Originally Posted by mountainstar

A rumor sprung up on another forum about champcar opening the series up to the irl cars. Essentially it would not be a deal with tg as champcar would just allow irl cars to compete.

Might be an interesting way to end the war. Instead of making a deal with the generals you convert his soldiers to your side.

I had heard the same but didn't give it much creedence. It will be interesting to see if this rumor has any legs.

I wonder which IRL teams would have interest in racing their slower Dallara's (on street circuits) against the Panoz, for a TV rating of .2?

I can just see their sponsors lining up for that one already.

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by Fogelhund

I wonder which IRL teams would have interest in racing their slower Dallara's (on street circuits) against the Panoz, for a TV rating of .2?

I can just see their sponsors lining up for that one already.

Don't know but it might break the stalemate everyone is on about. You would have to start somewhere? I would imagine since the irl cars are slower some accomodation would be made. Since 2 amigos own cosworth it probably wouldn't be too much trouble to slice some power off the cosworth engines.

Interesting rumor, but whether it has any basis in reality we shall see.

[mountainstar]

http://sports.espn.go.com/rpm/column...ohn&id=3180918

American open-wheel racing held hostage: Year 13

Looks like John is nicking column ideas from this thread.

[indycool]

Boy, according to Oreo, this conspiracy is very widespread and evil lurketh everywhere. And KK, whose only in it as a venture capitalist, 11th? About where he is on a grid, but not THIS grid.

[luke]

Originally Posted by mountainstar

http://sports.espn.go.com/rpm/column...ohn&id=3180918

American open-wheel racing held hostage: Year 13

Looks like John is nicking column ideas from this thread.

[JohnSSC]

So that is how one gets to have so many posts in so short a time!

I think anyone's "Top 11 or 10 or 20" is going to fluctuate. There are some here whose Top 10 would have only one name. I notice from the article that while "Oreo" (Good Old Oreo!) has recounted his list of villains - as has been done so many times by so many others - he has failed to come up with anything concrete in the way of a workable solution. Must be nice to get paid for stating the obvious in an "opinion" column.

Shuffle the order, include the CART Board, Honda, Toyota, The Second Gunman on the Grassy Knoll - whatever.

It is a mess. Somebody, or more likely a group of somebodies, needs to fix it.

[mountainstar]

It's good to identify the problem area so it can be fixed.

[Roninho]

Originally Posted by mountainstar

A rumor sprung up on another forum about champcar opening the series up to the irl cars. Essentially it would not be a deal with tg as champcar would just allow irl cars to compete.

Might be an interesting way to end the war. Instead of making a deal with the generals you convert his soldiers to your side.

I had heard the same but didn't give it much creedence. It will be interesting to see if this rumor has any legs.

Not sure about this but anyway:
Isn't it normal practice when a serie makes an agreement with a chassis manufacturer that allows them to enter a car that this car cannot be used in other series? So if an irl-dallara would be entered in a champcar race dallara would not be allowed to supply spare parts.

Would make sense imo from the standpoint of a serie. Let's say you've created the new gp2-serie, invested in it and it's looking like becoming a succes with great fields, and now A1GP says: gp2-teams take your gp2 car and race in our serie, and we pay $1 million in purses each race (or whatever). That would kill of gp2 quite fast.