Michael Andretti is trying to buy an F1 team

[E.B]

It seems the Andretti Sauber deal is now off, and at best a 50/50 chance.

Apparently the sticking block now is that Islero (the investment group that currently owns Sauber) feel that the team will be worth more in two years time and might be better hanging on. The main shareholders of Islero are split down the middle, half for it half for staying as is.
It seems that the asking price is now too high, and over the US$250 million that Andretti are said to have offered..

One thing I have noticed is that the report referring to the deal being in trouble is dated pre last weekends race

The report I have seen.
https://the-race.com/formula-1/andre...ay-yet-happen/

Also a video report of the breakdown which explains more fully. (And is dated today)
Apparently this breakdown of talks 'rumour' all stems from a report in the German Auto Motor und Sport news outlet.
The video report is apparently based on insider info.

https://youtu.be/RCojZ4aj7UY

[Richard C]

I saw that report last week. And it sounds real and logical to me.

I think the time to buy a team was before the new Concorde agreement that boosted the value of all teams by $200M (the $200M anti-dilution fee required of anyone who wants to create a new team from scratch).

Also, everyone is looking to make a jump forward in 2022 and assumes they will be in a better position next year than they are now. The problem is... Someone still needs to be last, next to last, etc. in the championship results. EVERYONE can't move forward. There will be winners and looser with respect to the 2022 shakeup.

Richard

[chunterer]

Originally Posted by E.B

It seems the Andretti Sauber deal is now off, and at best a 50/50 chance.

Apparently the sticking block now is that Islero (the investment group that currently owns Sauber) feel that the team will be worth more in two years time and might be better hanging on. The main shareholders of Islero are split down the middle, half for it half for staying as is.
It seems that the asking price is now too high, and over the US$250 million that Andretti are said to have offered..

One thing I have noticed is that the report referring to the deal being in trouble is dated pre last weekends race

The report I have seen.
https://the-race.com/formula-1/andre...ay-yet-happen/

Also a video report of the breakdown which explains more fully. (And is dated today)
Apparently this breakdown of talks 'rumour' all stems from a report in the German Auto Motor und Sport news outlet.
The video report is apparently based on insider info.

https://youtu.be/RCojZ4aj7UY

In other words...

We'll hang on a bit longer thankyou Michael, VAG will be coming a calling shortly!

[Skam85]

I hope this bodes well for Piastri

[E.B]

Originally Posted by Skam85

I hope this bodes well for Piastri

I dont think Piastri is in the equation.... Vasseur said as much when the rumour started, suggesting he needs more time in feeder series.
Now the Andretti deal is off and the Herta link gone, I imagine the very well backed Guanyu Zhou will get the gig.

Article today pretty much confirming Andretti have pulled out of the deal and why....

http://www.gptoday.com/full_story/vi...fa_Romeo_deal/

[bathurst77]

This was peak F1
a famous team, with long history struggling to stay with it
squillionairs bringing mega bucks
glamour, excitement, rumours, people claiming to be in the know, others saying "no i know the REAL story"
all the guess work, who will drive, what engine, what engineers what sponsors?
every tiny detail being picked over

then nothing happens. It was all a bottle of smoke

this is why i love f1

[Richard C]

A few more details. If anything a serious confirmation that the purchase attempt was real. It would be interesting to learn more about what the "control" issue was exactly.

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/a...ssues/6744664/

Richard

[Adam43]

That’s not enough money to buy a controlling stake?

[GTRMagic]

Originally Posted by Adam43

That’s not enough money to buy a controlling stake?

Of which entity? Seems like there is a web of corporations behind or above or below or around the legal operation of the Sauber team...

The hard part is knowing who owns or controls or has caveats on all of that...

Maybe Dorilton will prove easier to deal with...

[Teretonga]

if Andretti was paying a price and a guarantee but then wouldn't have control then one can understand the 'No thank you." Just what really happened isn't clear but what is clear is that it ain't happening.
So Kirkwood doesn't get the #26 seat and is searching for another home and Colton Herta races on the western side of the Atlantic.....
it doesn't surprise me that after his experience at McLaren that who is in 'control' would be a primary concern of Michael Andretti.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

A few more details. If anything a serious confirmation that the purchase attempt was real. It would be interesting to learn more about what the "control" issue was exactly.

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/a...ssues/6744664/

Richard

I would have thought the "control" issue was about who actually runs the team, including the hiring of drivers. Michael Andretti has been a very successful team owner but he hasn't run an F1 team before and Alfa-Romeo/Sauber were probably very reluctant to give that control of the team over to Andretti because of that.

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

I would have thought the "control" issue was about who actually runs the team, including the hiring of drivers. Michael Andretti has been a very successful team owner but he hasn't run an F1 team before and Alfa-Romeo/Sauber were probably very reluctant to give that control of the team over to Andretti because of that.

This is pure speculation on my part, but I don't think that was part of it at all. I don't think Michael was going to try to be the team manager. I expect he would have put someone on place to run the team. Think more of a Gene Haas (owner) and Guenther Steiner (team manager) situation. If he has someone else running the team, he can be as involved as much or as little as he wants.

The speculation prior to Andretti making his statement that it wasn't about "money", but about "control". It seemed that Andretti and Islero had probably worked out an agreement in principle (that Andretti would buy a controlling interest in Islero). And it was just the final contract details to work out. Then Islero asked that in addition to controlling interest in the team, they wanted Andretti to put $50 million per year for five years to guarantee ongoing operation of the team. This was money to be set aside up front.

I pretty much assume this would be placed in escrow or something. Would NOT go to Islero, but in fact would still be team money. But Andretti would not be in control of that money as to how and when it could be spent. The money would still be Andretti's in the long run.

Might the "control" issue be that Islero was starting to make extra demands that would put constraints on Andretti AFTER he took control of the team, but was contractually obligated to follow after Islero was no longer in control? If that is the case, (and again, this is my speculation). I can imagine Andretti thinking... I bought the team, I should be in control of the financing. That Islero can't tell him how to run the team after the sale is over. He controls the team after the sale, not them. So given it would have still been his money, it was the lack of control over that money.

What I think happened is. Islero got cold feet and decided to risk poisoning the deal by making wild demands. If the speculation is correct that it was about guaranteeing financing of the team, then I can imagine it was someone inside Sauber going to Islero and saying... "You are throwing us to the wolves here! You are selling us to an American company? They might just fire all of us and move the operations elsewhere!" or some variation on that theme.

At the end of the day. It was a lost opportunity to ensure continuation of a privateer. It is likely that someone like VAG will throw enough money at Islero (and sooth any fears by Sauber insiders) that they will make the sale happen. One more private team falling into the hands of a large manufacture.

Richard

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

This is pure speculation on my part, but I don't think that was part of it at all. I don't think Michael was going to try to be the team manager. I expect he would have put someone on place to run the team. Think more of a Gene Haas (owner) and Guenther Steiner (team manager) situation. If he has someone else running the team, he can be as involved as much or as little as he wants.

The speculation prior to Andretti making his statement that it wasn't about "money", but about "control". It seemed that Andretti and Islero had probably worked out an agreement in principle (that Andretti would buy a controlling interest in Islero). And it was just the final contract details to work out. Then Islero asked that in addition to controlling interest in the team, they wanted Andretti to put $50 million per year for five years to guarantee ongoing operation of the team. This was money to be set aside up front.

I pretty much assume this would be placed in escrow or something. Would NOT go to Islero, but in fact would still be team money. But Andretti would not be in control of that money as to how and when it could be spent. The money would still be Andretti's in the long run.

Might the "control" issue be that Islero was starting to make extra demands that would put constraints on Andretti AFTER he took control of the team, but was contractually obligated to follow after Islero was no longer in control? If that is the case, (and again, this is my speculation). I can imagine Andretti thinking... I bought the team, I should be in control of the financing. That Islero can't tell him how to run the team after the sale is over. He controls the team after the sale, not them. So given it would have still been his money, it was the lack of control over that money.

What I think happened is. Islero got cold feet and decided to risk poisoning the deal by making wild demands. If the speculation is correct that it was about guaranteeing financing of the team, then I can imagine it was someone inside Sauber going to Islero and saying... "You are throwing us to the wolves here! You are selling us to an American company? They might just fire all of us and move the operations elsewhere!" or some variation on that theme.

At the end of the day. It was a lost opportunity to ensure continuation of a privateer. It is likely that someone like VAG will throw enough money at Islero (and sooth any fears by Sauber insiders) that they will make the sale happen. One more private team falling into the hands of a large manufacture.

Richard

I didn't think he was trying to be the Team Manager or Principal either. Andretti said the reason the deal fell through wasn't to do with money, so I don't think this had anything to do with Andretti potentially buying a controlling interest in Islero. This was to do with control of the team. In the Autosport article it says: ''Asked by AP to clarify if he meant that Andretti Autosport was expected to “buy it and not control it”, Andretti nodded and said, “Basically.”

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/an...uy-in/6744674/

In an article by MSN they say: ''talks broke down at the final stage of negotiations when it came to the day-to-day running of the team.''

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/sport/moto...eal/ar-AAQkj6i

I think there were aspects of running the team, which Alfa-Romeo/Sauber were unhappy with, or reluctant to hand over to Andretti Autosport, quite possibly due to his lack of F1 experience.

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

I don't think this had anything to do with Andretti potentially buying a controlling interest in Islero. This was to do with control of the team.

So, I believe (probably like most F1 teams) ownership of Sauber is complex. Without trying to dig into European public records (of which I wouldn't even know where to start), I believe the Longbow Finance bought all of Sauber from Peter Sauber (controlling interest) and Monisha Kaltenborn (remaining stock) in 2016. Sauber is more than just F1. I think the larger entity is called "Sauber Group" which is made up of three components. Motorsports (where the F1 team resides), Engineering and Aerodynamics. I think I have read somewhere that Islero Finance was created some time after the 2016 purchase to restructure/carve out the F1 operation and place it under Islero, but with Islero still owned/controlled by Longbow.

At the end of the day. If you are going to "buy" an F1 team, you are looking to obtain a controlling interest. Otherwise you are just buying into (such as for investment purposes), but not controlling the team. I can find no scenario in which Andretti was planning on buying anything less than a controlling interest. So be it him buying a controlling interest in Sauber F1 from Islero, buying a controlling interest in Islero (who controls Sauber F1), buying Longbow itself (which controls Islero, which controls Sauber F1) it is sort of a moot point.

It has generally been reported that the deal was to buy a controlling interest in Islero. So that is why I call out him buying Islero. For all we know Islero exists to do nothing more than act as a holding company for the Sauber F1 team. This can segregate the F1 team from other holdings inside Longbow plus make it easier to spin off or sell the F1 team in the future.

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

In the Autosport article it says: ''Asked by AP to clarify if he meant that Andretti Autosport was expected to “buy it and not control it”, Andretti nodded and said, “Basically.”

Yes. We are reading the same articles. And like I pointed out in my speculation. They may have put some number of contractual restrictions late in the game related to the purchase. I guess it could have been any number of things. My speculation (as was reported quite a bit in the press) was that the restrictions was on finances for the first five years. Maybe that wasn't it. Maybe it was. Maybe there was even other restrictions that didn't hit the press. Andretti's comment was brief and left the door up for a ton of possible things to have happened. I trust his word that it wasn't money issues, but control issues. And putting restrictions on how and when he funds the team is a control issue as well as a number of other things that could have been done.

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

I think there were aspects of running the team, which Alfa-Romeo/Sauber were unhappy with, or reluctant to hand over to Andretti Autosport, quite possibly due to his lack of F1 experience.

You might be right. However if down to just "experience" that makes little sense. As mentioned, he can (and probably would) pay someone to do it. Frankly, Andretti is probably more experienced at running large motorsports operations than Longbow/Islero is. Honestly, it's a frankly absurd reason (not targeting you on this). And honestly, what would that contract look like? "You can buy the team, but you are contractually restricted from running it?" In contract negotiations, that would be a blatant finger in Andretti's eyes (i.e. highly insulting) and I don't think anyone reported things to be that acrimonious.

However, I think a variation of what you are saying is likely. And I think this is what I am saying. That it is not down that "lack of experience by him" will create a bad outcome. But rather they are just tying "him" to a bad outcome for the team (regardless of his experience level). In short, they don't like him or what he represents, or has said, or what they fear he might do.

And as I speculated earlier, I think it would be more likely that someone inside Sauber had convinced Islero/Longbow (or maybe they came to this conclusion themselves) that safeguards "to protect the team" should be put in place as part of the sale. And that in the end Andretti felt the safeguards stepped over the bounds of being acceptable. Contracts can be written to stipulate all types of things. They could have said the team and staff would need to remain in a geographic area for a set period of time. Or specific staff would need to be retained for a specific time. etc. All of these take control of the team away from the new owner. Some might have been acceptable, and maybe some not to Andretti. Again, speculation on what might have been by me.

Or it could have been something completely different. Maybe they just didn't like the color of Andretti's shirt one day. Or he offended someone in a meeting. Or... a million other reasons. And they decided to start making extra demands that tied his hands in some way post sale. If true, I would have walked from the deal as well.

Richard

[S griffin]

I think it's pretty clear how interested Andretti was in making this deal happen. Just circumstances got in the way.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

So, I believe (probably like most F1 teams) ownership of Sauber is complex. Without trying to dig into European public records (of which I wouldn't even know where to start), I believe the Longbow Finance bought all of Sauber from Peter Sauber (controlling interest) and Monisha Kaltenborn (remaining stock) in 2016. Sauber is more than just F1. I think the larger entity is called "Sauber Group" which is made up of three components. Motorsports (where the F1 team resides), Engineering and Aerodynamics. I think I have read somewhere that Islero Finance was created some time after the 2016 purchase to restructure/carve out the F1 operation and place it under Islero, but with Islero still owned/controlled by Longbow.

At the end of the day. If you are going to "buy" an F1 team, you are looking to obtain a controlling interest. Otherwise you are just buying into (such as for investment purposes), but not controlling the team. I can find no scenario in which Andretti was planning on buying anything less than a controlling interest. So be it him buying a controlling interest in Sauber F1 from Islero, buying a controlling interest in Islero (who controls Sauber F1), buying Longbow itself (which controls Islero, which controls Sauber F1) it is sort of a moot point.

It has generally been reported that the deal was to buy a controlling interest in Islero. So that is why I call out him buying Islero. For all we know Islero exists to do nothing more than act as a holding company for the Sauber F1 team. This can segregate the F1 team from other holdings inside Longbow plus make it easier to spin off or sell the F1 team in the future.


Yes. We are reading the same articles. And like I pointed out in my speculation. They may have put some number of contractual restrictions late in the game related to the purchase. I guess it could have been any number of things. My speculation (as was reported quite a bit in the press) was that the restrictions was on finances for the first five years. Maybe that wasn't it. Maybe it was. Maybe there was even other restrictions that didn't hit the press. Andretti's comment was brief and left the door up for a ton of possible things to have happened. I trust his word that it wasn't money issues, but control issues. And putting restrictions on how and when he funds the team is a control issue as well as a number of other things that could have been done.


You might be right. However if down to just "experience" that makes little sense. As mentioned, he can (and probably would) pay someone to do it. Frankly, Andretti is probably more experienced at running large motorsports operations than Longbow/Islero is. Honestly, it's a frankly absurd reason (not targeting you on this). And honestly, what would that contract look like? "You can buy the team, but you are contractually restricted from running it?" In contract negotiations, that would be a blatant finger in Andretti's eyes (i.e. highly insulting) and I don't think anyone reported things to be that acrimonious.

However, I think a variation of what you are saying is likely. And I think this is what I am saying. That it is not down that "lack of experience by him" will create a bad outcome. But rather they are just tying "him" to a bad outcome for the team (regardless of his experience level). In short, they don't like him or what he represents, or has said, or what they fear he might do.

And as I speculated earlier, I think it would be more likely that someone inside Sauber had convinced Islero/Longbow (or maybe they came to this conclusion themselves) that safeguards "to protect the team" should be put in place as part of the sale. And that in the end Andretti felt the safeguards stepped over the bounds of being acceptable. Contracts can be written to stipulate all types of things. They could have said the team and staff would need to remain in a geographic area for a set period of time. Or specific staff would need to be retained for a specific time. etc. All of these take control of the team away from the new owner. Some might have been acceptable, and maybe some not to Andretti. Again, speculation on what might have been by me.

Or it could have been something completely different. Maybe they just didn't like the color of Andretti's shirt one day. Or he offended someone in a meeting. Or... a million other reasons. And they decided to start making extra demands that tied his hands in some way post sale. If true, I would have walked from the deal as well.

Richard

Yes it has been generally reported that the deal was to buy a controlling interest, 80% of the shares, in Islero Investments, which would put Andretti Autosport in control of the Sauber Motorsport and Sauber Engineering divisions.

However, Andretti said, the sticking point was never financial but to do with the control of the actual F1 team, or as the MSN article put it, the day to day running of the F1 team.

Indeed, If you are going to "buy" an F1 team, you are looking to obtain a controlling interest, otherwise you are just buying into it for investment purposes. Maybe that is what Islero, Alfa-Romeo/Sauber thought he was doing, coming in purely as an investor? When it transpired he wanted to actually run the team, the deal fell through.

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

However, Andretti said, the sticking point was never financial but to do with the control of the actual F1 team, or as the MSN article put it, the day to day running of the F1 team.

I think we are talking past each other as we are in violent agreement on the control vs money part, but miles apart on the rest (such as below).

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

Maybe that is what Islero, Alfa-Romeo/Sauber thought he was doing, coming in purely as an investor? When it transpired he wanted to actually run the team, the deal fell through.

I can't imagine the two parties having that large of a disconnect when that deep in negotiations on such a fundamental part of the deal.

Regardless, the deal is dead. Short of more details from reliable resources, it will remain speculation as to what actually happened.

Richard

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

I think we are talking past each other as we are in violent agreement on the control vs money part, but miles apart on the rest (such as below).

I can't imagine the two parties having that large of a disconnect when that deep in negotiations on such a fundamental part of the deal.

Regardless, the deal is dead. Short of more details from reliable resources, it will remain speculation as to what actually happened.

Richard

This article seems to intimate there was a disconnect.

''He affirmed a suggestion that Sauber wanted him to buy the team but not control it”.

https://www.autoweek.com/racing/form...with-finances/

As you say the deal is dead and short of more details from reliable resources, it will remain speculation as to what actually happened.

[Richard C]

Mario now saying that Michael is working with FIA to establish a totally new F1 team in 2024.

https://twitter.com/MarioAndretti/st...Cp0ayFwL4pAAAA

Richard

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

Mario now saying that Michael is working with FIA to establish a totally new F1 team in 2024.

https://twitter.com/MarioAndretti/st...Cp0ayFwL4pAAAA

Richard

Working with the FIA? Masi sure found a new role pretty quick there!

[E.B]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

Working with the FIA? Masi sure found a new role pretty quick there!

[S griffin]

Would love to see this happen, Andretti has done very well with his own team in Indycars and Formula E, so no reason why his team can't do the same in F1. Best of luck Michael

[Moneyseeker]

Surely a Haas merger/buyout would be quicker and cheaper?

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by Moneyseeker

Surely a Haas merger/buyout would be quicker and cheaper?

I would think so. One thing that has crossed my mind is that might part of this be a negotiating tactic to show those on the seller side that they can't corner the market on "for sale" teams. And even if that doesn't work, if feels he has no other options, then go ahead, pay the big fee to F1 and then create a new team?

Richard

[broadrun96]

Originally Posted by Moneyseeker

Surely a Haas merger/buyout would be quicker and cheaper?

It appears that is not an option and Mr Haas has his own criteria of what selling the team would take. Or he didn't like this particular deal