IMSA: 2020

[Dyson Mazda]

IMSA desperately needs to allow an Oreca-Gibson and/or a Ligier-Gibson DPi to enter the top class. That would allow any team to enter the the class without dealing with OEM politics.

[broadrun96]

Originally Posted by Dyson Mazda

IMSA desperately needs to allow an Oreca-Gibson and/or a Ligier-Gibson DPi to enter the top class. That would allow any team to enter the the class without dealing with OEM politics.

No one took up that offer even with Core and JDC Miller winning previously so why would someone who has an extra chassis modify their car to DPi pace without being able to use it anywhere else? It didn't look like anyone was interested in doing so, if not teams had taken that in the past we may not have seen the cars split.

[Dyson Mazda]

Originally Posted by broadrun96

No one took up that offer even with Core and JDC Miller winning previously so why would someone who has an extra chassis modify their car to DPi pace without being able to use it anywhere else? It didn't look like anyone was interested in doing so, if not teams had taken that in the past we may not have seen the cars split.

Last year IMSA did not really alter the performance of the P2's. They BoP'ed everyone else down to the P2 pace. IMSA should take a different approach and bring the Oreca 07 up to DPi pace (give more HP, take away weight, etc).

[chernaudi]

No can do right now by agreement with the ACO. LMP2s have to be approximately equal to ACO specs.

[broadrun96]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

No can do right now by agreement with the ACO. LMP2s have to be approximately equal to ACO specs.

I don't think that's what it says, they've never said that that I've seen. However, the team taking the Trueman award I believe has to run a compliant LMP2 and a sped up car would not meet that. But even then I think it's just an LMP2 that can be entered at LM so they could return to standard spec and done.

But would Gibson support an engine outside of the specs? They know how it does now but would they let someone run it up with more power? Or would a team be willing to pay the development costs? Doubt it would be a free click a few times and done upgrade, especially with the engine developed to specific standard, cost and use cycle

[chernaudi]

Remember that DPIs had to be repeatedly cranked back until this season to approx. LMP2 speeds. Even though IMSA added weight to the LMP2s late last season (and I'm assuming this season), that was done with ACO approval. Also, LMP2 initially was the spec that was baseline for DPI performance. However, DPIs were allowed development that base LMP2s weren't, which was a big reason for the pegging back of DPIs the past couple of years until this season.

That all being said, if the ACO and IMSA did allow a power boost for LMP2s in IMSA, it's probably doable. The 4.5 liter Gibson V8 that Rebellion is using is based on the 4.2 liter LMP2 V8 with (I assume, since Gibson hasn't released the info on it) a larger bore and (for sure) being adapted to fuel flow instead of using an air restrictor like the LMP2 engine does.

[broadrun96]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

Remember that DPIs had to be repeatedly cranked back until this season to approx. LMP2 speeds. Even though IMSA added weight to the LMP2s late last season (and I'm assuming this season), that was done with ACO approval. Also, LMP2 initially was the spec that was baseline for DPI performance. However, DPIs were allowed development that base LMP2s weren't, which was a big reason for the pegging back of DPIs the past couple of years until this season.

That all being said, if the ACO and IMSA did allow a power boost for LMP2s in IMSA, it's probably doable. The 4.5 liter Gibson V8 that Rebellion is using is based on the 4.2 liter LMP2 V8 with (I assume, since Gibson hasn't released the info on it) a larger bore and (for sure) being adapted to fuel flow instead of using an air restrictor like the LMP2 engine does.

With who's money?? That's always the catch and everyone is willing to spend and spend but who is funding it?? IMSA sure as hell isn't, the ACO wouldn't be interested at all, and Gibson has a business building them to spec X, why suddenly offer Y for a market that just isn't there?

And I'm pretty sure the reason for restricting the DPis back is they are paying for the cars. LMP2 runners were promised buy a car and race it, no development needed. Now to change the rules and say well that's too slow, no fund making it faster?? Hell buy a Caddy at that rate and be done, no development crew, testing, parts sourcing needed, it's turn-key and fast.

[chernaudi]

I just said that it'd doable, not that it'll get done. I don't think that the current LMP2 pro-am teams would commit to it. And there's naturally no incentive to run an all-pro LMP2 in IMSA.

Problem also is in DPI only Cadillac are offering customer cars, and I've heard that they're almost at their limit on the number of teams they're currently willing to support. So it seems that either way, getting LMP2 up to DPI specs, we're up a creek without a paddle. Not that anyone wants to commit right now to such an idea.

[Dyson Mazda]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

I just said that it'd doable, not that it'll get done. I don't think that the current LMP2 pro-am teams would commit to it. And there's naturally no incentive to run an all-pro LMP2 in IMSA.

Problem also is in DPI only Cadillac are offering customer cars, and I've heard that they're almost at their limit on the number of teams they're currently willing to support. So it seems that either way, getting LMP2 up to DPI specs, we're up a creek without a paddle. Not that anyone wants to commit right now to such an idea.

I mean DPI has zero chance of growing if there are not options for interested teams. If Mazda & Acura aren’t selling and GM is caped out, the series needs to find other options.

[chernaudi]

IMO, both IMSA and the ACO are facing the issue of teams leaving faster than they're coming in.

[broadrun96]

And now the series has rules regarding BOP manipulation as per S365, https://sportscar365.com/imsa/iwsc/i...-manipulation/

Sounds like Penske has been caught using data to drive lap times at Road America to setup the rest of the season. Thought we had this under control with computer based and data driven BOP. Or have the computer guys written code that hides the settings and makes the car look slow. They have added the following “providing false or intentionally misleading information [in radio transmissions] is a breach of the rules and the use of code(s), cipher(s), disguised, misleading, or otherwise secretive language to attempt to influence the BoP process by manipulating the performance through driver management or by any other means is prohibited and may be penalized per Art. 57.” to the rules and originally had a restriction to only English in the radio but thought better of that.

And for those who like timing and scoring it looks like that's about to change too. "Additionally, IMSA will no longer be distributing speed trap data over the course of the weekend and will also be providing reduced timing and scoring data from only three sectors at each track. IMSA utilizes a number of data points, including sector times, as well as its proprietary scrutineering data logger, for BoP adjustments, although the timing and scoring data, provided following each session to all competitors, is believed to also be a method of potential manipulation." To me that sounds like they aren't going to have timing and scoring for the punters either now

[chernaudi]

They'll have the data for fans, just not until at least the Monday following the race based on what I read in the SC365 article.

Maybe IMSA should adopt the ACO's auto BOP system that the WEC uses for races except LM. We don't hear about WEC teams trying to screw with data to get favorable BOP, probably in part because of the automated system. IMO, that seems better than IMSA's relative shoot from the hip/make changes every race method.

[carbsmith]

Bit farcical, isn't it?

A full dataset, including all sector data and speed trap information, will be made available following each event through its normal channels

Eh our live timing was never that detailed anyways, unfortunately.

Originally Posted by chernaudi

Remember that DPIs had to be repeatedly cranked back until this season to approx. LMP2 speeds. Even though IMSA added weight to the LMP2s late last season (and I'm assuming this season), that was done with ACO approval. Also, LMP2 initially was the spec that was baseline for DPI performance. However, DPIs were allowed development that base LMP2s weren't, which was a big reason for the pegging back of DPIs the past couple of years until this season.

This doesn't particularly reflect reality as Cadillac is still running 30kg heavier and with less fuel than this time last year, although a bigger restrictor. Lap times are faster this year, but that's mostly the new tires at this point.

[seanyb505]

I wonder if this will impact the James Muscat timing that Akrapovic uses for theracingline. I don't think that info (mainly live) is the official imsa distribution channel, just an aggregator of various timing feeds. Might lose session speed trap info until after the weekend, but it's the during event stuff I find most valuable.

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by seanyb505

I wonder if this will impact the James Muscat timing that Akrapovic uses for theracingline. I don't think that info (mainly live) is the official imsa distribution channel, just an aggregator of various timing feeds. Might lose session speed trap info until after the weekend, but it's the during event stuff I find most valuable.

I'd hate to see IMSA do what the ACO did and cut off James Muscats system. But we've seen stupid moves from big players before, and IMSA isn't beyond making a stupid move.

God I hope not. That system makes and breaks races. Thankfully there's a Chrome extension for WEC, but ELMS is still stuck with a Live Timing system that is designed by someone who doesn't understand Live Timing systems.

I wonder what kind of tech knowledge is required to parse and display these systems.

[broadrun96]

Well another one bites the dust, Bennett is closing up shop in his side and ending the "Nissan" DPi program with his retiring from IMSA. He may return but I'm guessing if he does it's a GT car and a couple hours at Daytona. Or possibly some old cars and laps in historic racing, can have some fun on a much lower budget.

https://sportscar365.com/imsa/iwsc/c...ure-confirmed/

But maybe plus one with Racer reporting Mazda is considering customer DPis. It makes sense now after a couple statements from Doonan and others about wanting to be reliable enough to sell them and be successful. It seems they've made a winning car so maybe sales next, stranger things have happened but have to wonder what teams would or could run them.

https://racer.com/2019/08/22/mazda-c...tent=home-hero

[MaskedRacer]

Originally Posted by broadrun96

Well another one bites the dust, Bennett is closing up shop in his side and ending the "Nissan" DPi program with his retiring from IMSA. He may return but I'm guessing if he does it's a GT car and a couple hours at Daytona. Or possibly some old cars and laps in historic racing, can have some fun on a much lower budget.

https://sportscar365.com/imsa/iwsc/c...ure-confirmed/

But maybe plus one with Racer reporting Mazda is considering customer DPis. It makes sense now after a couple statements from Doonan and others about wanting to be reliable enough to sell them and be successful. It seems they've made a winning car so maybe sales next, stranger things have happened but have to wonder what teams would or could run them.

https://racer.com/2019/08/22/mazda-c...tent=home-hero

Very impressive that Mazda has shown the patience that they have. Both with finally getting a team/car combination that can win. Also with selling the cars with privateers. Generate a lot of goodwill I think by waiting to sell until you get to a point that you know you can give the customer a quality product rather than rush for the $$. We see that too much in other aspects of society today. Especially with movie franchises which are horrible....Star Wars Disney anybody!

[broadrun96]

Surprisingly we aren't losing the AMG for next season, Riley GTD program continues without Keating. Robinson racing with be running the full season with Riley, with Robinson and Aschenbach running in the car. So not really a full gain but moving Lone Star up to full season entry

[broadrun96]

From what I read here from MP it looks like the "standard" timing will still be available. It's the multiple sectors and detailed timing that will be curtailed. Although in his thinking teams will still be able to model it with their own timing stream from the car, it just means they won't know what other cars are doing. Sounds to me like rules to benefit one of the teams doing this exact activity, Penske will model everything they can and have more of their usual tech than everyone else. And he doesn't think it will do a damn thing.
https://racer.com/2019/08/23/pruett-...tent=home-hero

Sounds to me more like IMSA needs to minimize how much data is allowed to stream off the car. Let them download it after the event but limited data streaming off the car. If a driver can replicate this with the seat of his pants, great that's a skill and should be rewarded. But the data from F1, Indy and sportscars is getting excessive.

[carbsmith]

Or instead of introducing scores of absurd, nigh impossible to enforce rules they could just stop using a fundamentally flawed anti-competitive performance regulation system and try promoting racing instead of racing themed smoke and mirror entertainment.

It's pretty pathetic when big time professional sports cars are basically a deceptive version of the same product as some lame breakout lap time club race.

[TF110]

I think the data thing is getting more popular because it's a form of acquisition that testing gives, so they are doing it during races because of the lack of testing. At least in f1 that's more the case. It's pretty backwards because in the name of cost cutting these series take away testing and the money just goes to things like this, a computer program.

[broadrun96]

Originally Posted by TF110

I think the data thing is getting more popular because it's a form of acquisition that testing gives, so they are doing it during races because of the lack of testing. At least in f1 that's more the case. It's pretty backwards because in the name of cost cutting these series take away testing and the money just goes to things like this, a computer program.

It appears any time you cut a cost an engineer finds a way to spend twice as much to develop back to the point previous. And then often it's modeled instead of on track and the correlation leads teams down the wrong path, see Farrari and Williams often and Haas this year.

[broadrun96]

Wow, optimistic from Ganassi if Risi can't get a program from Ferrari, from S365:
"***Discussions between Chip Ganassi Racing and Ferrari on a potential two-car GT Le Mans program for next year is understood to have stalled. Sportscar365 understands that the Italian manufacturer is unable to commit to the necessary budget required for a factory-backed full-season GTLM effort.

***It’s understood Ganassi has reached out to other manufacturers inside and outside of the IMSA paddock as well, in the hope of keeping its sports car team alive in the wake of Ford’s exit from factory competition at the end of this year."

And Pratt and Miller doing things that impress with car repair.

***Corvette Racing’s No. 4 car underwent an emergency engine change ahead of qualifying. The Pratt & Miller team performed the switch in less than an hour to get the car ready for the 15-minute timed session, in which Oliver Gavin finished fifth.

[joeb]

Originally Posted by broadrun96

Wow, optimistic from Ganassi if Risi can't get a program from Ferrari, from S365:
"***Discussions between Chip Ganassi Racing and Ferrari on a potential two-car GT Le Mans program for next year is understood to have stalled. Sportscar365 understands that the Italian manufacturer is unable to commit to the necessary budget required for a factory-backed full-season GTLM effort.

***It’s understood Ganassi has reached out to other manufacturers inside and outside of the IMSA paddock as well, in the hope of keeping its sports car team alive in the wake of Ford’s exit from factory competition at the end of this year."

And Pratt and Miller doing things that impress with car repair.

***Corvette Racing’s No. 4 car underwent an emergency engine change ahead of qualifying. The Pratt & Miller team performed the switch in less than an hour to get the car ready for the 15-minute timed session, in which Oliver Gavin finished fifth.

I guess if Ferrari says no, then that only leaves Aston as a possibility.

[chernaudi]

And who'll pay IMSA's entry fee? Will it be AMR or Ganassi? Both are known for being notoriously cheap/not willing to spend their own money on such things.