[Rumours] Vettel to Ferrari in 2014?

[wnut]

Originally Posted by luke g28

Honda are pretty good aren't they? Seem to be on point in the BTCC anyway from what ive seen of it, had to have their boost dialled back as it was unfair?

Honda havn't been involved with F1 since the late 80s, but might be persuaded to come back in by the new regs. They are rumoured to be sniffing around, but this may well be as Bella surmised, merely a tactic to put pressure on Dorna who run MotoGP.

Hopefully they will come back.

The real point is that Renault would see that they have an advantage over their current F1 competitors Merc and Ferrari.
Any other entrant would have a big technical backlog to overcome to be competitive. Probably why the rev limit has been lowered, to encourage others.

With due respect, there is a huge difference between BTCC and F1, so that experience is of limited value.

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by wnut

With due respect, there is a huge difference between BTCC and F1, so that experience is of limited value.

Indeed. And didn't Honda just cause a great big fuss in Indycars, because they went with one turbo and Chevrolet went with two? Honda wanted to alter its turbo shrouding to give more power (they couldn't alter the turbo because Borg-Warner makes them), Chrevolet, having dominated up to this point, disagreed. The governing body ruled in favour of Honda, and yet Chevrolet continue to stomp all over them.

But, in general, when it comes to turbos, most F1 engine manufacturers tend to not do them 'in-house'. KKK, Garrett, etc, tend to get the job. Ferrari, Mercedes, Renault, Cosworth and PURE, will all be looking at outsourcing their turbo requirements for 2014.

Honda, on their 80's F1 turbo engines, used IHI turbos!

[Bononi]

Originally Posted by Adam43

Joe knows nothing. Webber will go to Renault. Everyone knows that.

That's the undisputed truth.

[wolfhound]

Originally Posted by wnut

Honda havn't been involved with F1 since the late 80s,.

Who did Jenson & Rubens driver for in 2008?

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by wolfhound

Who did Jenson & Rubens driver for in 2008?

With regard to engines, they had a gap between 92 and 99. But they still supplied Mugen with engines during that period.

[wnut]

Originally Posted by wolfhound

Who did Jenson & Rubens driver for in 2008?

Oops you're right, but look what happened when they changed engines!
So i'll still back Renault as the pre-eminent engine builder.
I did qualify my original statement with currently in F1 though.

[p-matt]

Originally Posted by Adam43

Joe knows nothing. Webber will go to Renault. Everyone knows that.

Ha! I knew someone would say that.

I don't see the logic in Webber to Ferrari at all. It's one of the several drums Mr Saward likes to bang on along with Liuzzi is underrated and karma is going to hit Mallya.

Surely Ferrari are placing the Hulk at Sauber with an eye on signing him for Ferrari from 2014 if the Vettel deal falls through. Why else would Nico move from one solid midfield team to another?

[BSchneiderFan]

Are Sauber really so closely tied to Ferrari these days, or just an engine customer?

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by BSchneiderFan

Are Sauber really so closely tied to Ferrari these days, or just an engine customer?

Good question. Let's see how much the Sauber's get in the way of Vettel's car at the remaining races.

Although, we may see a couple of STR's also being driven 'strategically'.

I'd like to think that Sauber don't owe Ferrari any money for their engine supply, and it will therefore keep the conspiracy theorists at bay. One can only hope.

Hulk going from a Mercedes engined car to a Ferrari engined car is a possible sign that he isn't going to Mercedes, McLaren or Red Bull, I would have thought.

[VIVA GT]

Originally Posted by p-matt

Ha! I knew someone would say that.

I don't see the logic in Webber to Ferrari at all. It's one of the several drums Mr Saward likes to bang on along with Liuzzi is underrated and karma is going to hit Mallya.

Surely Ferrari are placing the Hulk at Sauber with an eye on signing him for Ferrari from 2014 if the Vettel deal falls through. Why else would Nico move from one solid midfield team to another?

I do. Mark would make a good, solid (and more consistent) number two driver than Massa, keep Alonso honest and take more points off their rivals. As a swan-song to his F1 career, it would help his pension fund considerably too!

[jedrinck]

I wonder what the emphasis on the RB being an Adrian Newey designed car is all about. He hasn't won a title between 1998 and 2010. Does that mean the drivers who had Newey cars then were no good because one is pretty much certain to win in one? It's true that Vettel owes much of his success to the quality of the car but then so does every single WDC in F1 history.

[kipper]

Originally Posted by jedrinck

I wonder what the emphasis on the RB being an Adrian Newey designed car is all about. He hasn't won a title between 1998 and 2010. Does that mean the drivers who had Newey cars then were no good

To be fair, the first few years at Red Bull were unlikely to result in championship success as the team built up its infrastructure for a championship. Furthermore, with the exception of 2004, the final McLarens were reasonably competitive.

[jedrinck]

Exactly, maybe my question wasn't particularly clear. What I meant to say is that I feel like never before has the success of a team been associated so much with who the chief engineer is. I don't mean to say that's not justified as success in F1 is maybe 80% or so about the car. I just don't remember people going as crazy about Rory Byrne when MS dominated in the Ferrari and did so even more than Vettel did in the 2011 RB.
Now it seems a lot of people want to take away some of Vettel's glory by going on and on about how important Newey is. He is, alright, but it wasn't talked about as much when for example Hakkinen was WDC in a Newey car, or so it seems to me.

[Mr V]

Originally Posted by jedrinck

Now it seems a lot of people want to take away some of Vettel's glory by going on and on about how important Newey is. He is, alright, but it wasn't talked about as much when for example Hakkinen was WDC in a Newey car, or so it seems to me.

There are a certain amount of people on here who simply don't like him, so can't accept the fact that he is talented enough to win races/WDC's, simple as that.

All i will say is, the genius Adrian Newey built a car that was capable of 12 wins last year, yet Sebastian took 11 of them and Mark's came about because Seb has "gearbox problems" dispite setting fastest laps. You can have the best car out there, but if you don't have a driver capable of delivering results, its pointless.

[Greem]

Originally Posted by jedrinck

Now it seems a lot of people want to take away some of Vettel's glory by going on and on about how important Newey is. He is, alright, but it wasn't talked about as much when for example Hakkinen was WDC in a Newey car, or so it seems to me.

Marketing.

Newey appeals to the inner nerd of a cross-section of motorsport fandom. He's quiet, thoughtful, intelligent, still actually draws his designs on paper and seems to be able to conjure up brilliant design ideas from thin air.

Red Bull's marketing people realised that they had a marketing gem - OK, a niche one - so brought him to be more in the public eye. I'm not sure Newey is too comfortable with it, but they're paying him top dollar to indulge his design fantasies and see if they work, so I think he's accepting of it.

[kipper]

Originally Posted by Greem

Marketing.

Newey appeals to the inner nerd of a cross-section of motorsport fandom. He's quiet, thoughtful, intelligent, still actually draws his designs on paper and seems to be able to conjure up brilliant design ideas from thin air.

Red Bull's marketing people realised that they had a marketing gem

I wouldn't dispute that Newey is something of a 'marketing gem'; however, Newey's reputation predates his involvement with Red Bull; for instance, the results that March secured in the late 80's (although I was a bit young at the time) and the fact that Williams ceased to be a championship force when he left (whilst the withdrawal of Renault helped in this, the team did not win championships when powered by BMW)>

[Greem]

I appreciate his reputation goes back a long way; the point was tgat RBR are the first team he's worked for who have used him in such a public way.

It's only a small contribution to the car/driver/designer debate, but a relevant one

[Knowlesy]

Originally Posted by Mr V

There are a certain amount of people on here who simply don't like him, so can't accept the fact that he is talented enough to win races/WDC's, simple as that.

I don't like him. I do accept he is very talented.

But I also accept that Newey is supremely talented also and his teammate is painfully average.

Originally Posted by jedrinck

it wasn't talked about as much when for example Hakkinen was WDC in a Newey car, or so it seems to me.

Really? It's all you heard: "Ooh, Michael was beaten by Newey."

Mika Hakkinen, what a great and wonderful man.

[OZ_HCR32]

Newey enjoys the superlatives he does due to the rules of current F1. In years past you had different tyre performance, you had very different engine performance. Then you had aero and other innovations

In these days of F1 you cant engineer/develop a tyre/grip advantage with your tyre supplier through compounds and construction. You cant engineer more hp or drivability or economy over your competition due to engine freeze.

It puts all the emphasis on aero which Newey is about the best. So its not fair to say its a geek, current thing...he significance has raised to public notoriety due to the lack of development in areas other than aero

[wnut]

Originally Posted by OZ_HCR32

Newey enjoys the superlatives he does due to the rules of current F1. In years past you had different tyre performance, you had very different engine performance. Then you had aero and other innovations

In these days of F1 you cant engineer/develop a tyre/grip advantage with your tyre supplier through compounds and construction. You cant engineer more hp or drivability or economy over your competition due to engine freeze.

It puts all the emphasis on aero which Newey is about the best. So its not fair to say its a geek, current thing...he significance has raised to public notoriety due to the lack of development in areas other than aero

You are selling Newey a bit short here, he is in fact very good at packaging a racing car, not just an aerodynamicist. In this era of virtually standard parts, engine etc. Newey wins because he is the best at optimising the whole package, and a single element (say engine or continuously variable transmission or active suspension) is not able to make up for another designer's short commings. You have to beat Newey across a whole car which is very difficult as his results show!

On top of this Seb is probably the equal best driver in F1! (Alonso)

[OZ_HCR32]

Point being tyres, engines and electronics are all tightly regulated. That's why we read so much about Newey at present and his responsibility for RBRs pace. RBR have all the ingredients at the moment,...funding, engineering, driving and they seem as good as any with smarts/race strategy.

In the past you heard loads about Bridgestone and Ferrari success. Renault and Honda engines, Ferrari engines. No Newey car using a Peugeot engine on the lesser competitive tyres etc etc were going to do the job. Hell Hill and Arrows almost won the Hungarian GP due to the Bridgestone tyres being in "the zone" on that day

The need to be strong in all areas remains, but there are less external variables to control and design to so think the ability of Newey and the people around shines through these days.

[JohnSSC]

Originally Posted by OZ_HCR32

Point being tyres, engines and electronics are all tightly regulated. That's why we read so much about Newey at present and his responsibility for RBRs pace. RBR have all the ingredients at the moment,...funding, engineering, driving and they seem as good as any with smarts/race strategy.

In the past you heard loads about Bridgestone and Ferrari success. Renault and Honda engines, Ferrari engines. No Newey car using a Peugeot engine on the lesser competitive tyres etc etc were going to do the job. Hell Hill and Arrows almost won the Hungarian GP due to the Bridgestone tyres being in "the zone" on that day

The need to be strong in all areas remains, but there are less external variables to control and design to so think the ability of Newey and the people around shines through these days.

Interesting point. There have been a number of outstanding designers in F1 over the years but in this era you correctly point out that they (and the rest of the team) have to control fewer variables.

For me, this means that you have to have the optimum package: Team, Designer, Driver and Factory. Execution is everything. The design has to be right. It has to be properly carried out. It has to be properly built/maintained and finally, it needs a driver who can optimize the resulting package.

We saw this with Ferrari during Michael's time there. The best constructed and best operating team provided the best car to a driver who optimized it.

At the moment, we see this at RBR with Vettel. His second, Webber, has shown speed but has not seen the top step often enough. Based on his performance though, I would say that Webber is not "average" and certainly has extracted more from the car than Rubens did with the Ferrari.

While I believe that in today's F1 "the car is the star," in order to gain optimum results (i.e. WCC/WDC titles) then you HAVE to have the best driver available to get those results. This is why Ferrari got Alonso although Ferrari have been unable to pull the rest of the organization together like RBR has. We have seen, though that Alonso is indeed capable of extracting the maximum from the car.

Much as I like Alonso, I have to give Seb his due: He is the best in the business right now driving fro what may be the best team in the business right now.

[Born Racer]

Originally Posted by JohnSSC

Much as I like Alonso, I have to give Seb his due: He is the best in the business right now driving for what may be the best team in the business right now.

I don't know if he's the best, but the perception of him doesn't give him his due. I think it's because ultimately there are still small doubts whether he could dig quite as deep as an Alonso or a Hamilton. He does deserve more credit though. If he gets a third consecutive title for his first three titles, he may start finally getting some.

[BSchneiderFan]

Originally Posted by Knowlesy

But I also accept that Newey is supremely talented also and his teammate is painfully average.

Mark Webber, painfully average? 11 poles and 9 wins suggest not.

[Born Racer]

Originally Posted by BSchneiderFan

Mark Webber, painfully average? 11 poles and 9 wins suggest not.

Relative to Vettel perhaps, but Vettel is very, very good. Webber's like Button for me. Fantastic on his day, but frustratingly inconsistent. You wouldn't want to rely on either of them for your championship campaign, I'm afraid.